very slanted writing, but....
http://www.adn.com/2011/10/08/211142...l-between.html
very slanted writing, but....
http://www.adn.com/2011/10/08/211142...l-between.html
As a student, I had an experience with a 141 near Travis AFB with an instructor on board. He told me to take off the hood and take a look! I thought he was shockingly close, the instructor thought it was no big deal and had it in sight the whole time.
Because of their size (really big... by comparison) they look damn close. sk
I would think the airforce will have control of that airspace and pilots will not be allowed to fly in the area they practice in.
If I had to pick one plane, it would be the Super Cub. Im going to build one and try to find a 180 to put in it. I will need your help. Thanks
I am guessing that a huge plane like that looks a lot closer than it actually is. I bet they had the 500ft separation as claimed. Both pilots have the responsibility to see and be seen. It ain't a one way street. When I was learning to fly a couple of A10's were in the pattern with me at Eielson AFB. When those A10's turned on their downwind legs I was looking right up the back side of their engines and that was all I could see. I thought it was way dayum cool.
Last edited by Torch; 10-10-2011 at 01:26 AM.
I'll just say it.
A couple of chicks overreacting.
Most pilots get passed like that the FAA is never involved.
C-17s are easy to spot from 20 miles away. The only way the student and instructor would be justified in missing one would be if the C-17 overtook the little Cessna from behind and in that case I'd be pissed if the jet only gave me 500' of clearance. All of us who fly in the Anch area are used to military traffic. When I was a student I had a close experience with F-15s. My perception of the event was different as a wide-eyed student than when looking back. I was never in danger. My biggest concern with proximity to a C-17 and other military jets would be wake turbulence and most of us who fly in and out of Hood get an occasional taste of it. So far my take on the C-17 is that it makes a pretty good ripple in the sky. All in all it must have been a really slow news day.
SB
Last edited by StewartB; 10-10-2011 at 09:31 AM.
Bill, that airspace is over two towns and some private strips. There's no way to restrict it for US Military use only. Not without creating a huge problem for the Valley GA community.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
"To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
--- Brig. Gen. Robby Risner
technicaly it IS wartime..... so I bet they could do something......Originally Posted by docstory
ok... dumb question perhaps... could there have been a notam issued for these ops or could the flight instructor have called the controlling agency to inquire as to what sort of ops might have been encountered specifically on this day? I dunno, but remember an IAC contest a couple of years in a row that involved a similar operation taking place through the waivered airspace in use for the aerobatic box. We simply suspended operations for a few moments at a time and watched the paratrooper trainees get dropped and on another occasion... other stuff. We ~can~ just all get along
Of course, I, as a relatively low-time pilot still have no real idea how far apart anything is in the sky yet (distance from clouds or from obstacles for example, I just give 'em all a WIDE berth in the meantime) and I ~have~ flown in close formation with other airplanes and one bald eagle with a surprised expression on it's face. On my first solo CC flight, I was surprised by a V-tail banana climbing directly across my path (left to right) from I dunno where and obviously not as close as it felt. One must also consider the eyewitness reports of the airplane that was flying RIGHT OVER me... Distance perception is not easily very accurate...
heh... of course there are those nights when one could just about reach out and touch the moon!
I am betting that they had the separation also, but I also know first hand just how damn big those C17's are when your putting along in a cub or something similar size and they zip right past you. You feel like you just brought a toothpick to a gun fight. I think they get a kick out of scaring the crap out of people.
I know Devon and the rest of her family. Her dad was a flying buddy. Those kids loved to fly with their dad and now, even after his death in a plane, they are getting thier tickets and carrying on with his dreams.
Do you think that the C17 pilot really needed to sneak in from behind that damn close? Even if it was 501' or 1000' away, is there really a need for them to be overtaking a plane that close. We have a HUGE amount of airspace up here for them to play in, he could have given her a lil more separation.
Mike,
You are correct.
But it would still cause massive hardship for Valley GA operators, maintainers and private pilots.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
"To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
--- Brig. Gen. Robby Risner
You mean my all time favorite:
"Any traffic in the area, please advise"
didn't work?!
IMHO, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a military pilot who enjoys scaring GA pilots. Plenty of us fly Cubs in our spare time...
From my perspective the C-17s are far less threatening and present less conflict potential than the C-130s that used to fly in groups at low altitudes around the Su and Yentna valleys. Those Hercs were hard to spot and I got close views of them more than once. The worst part was when they'd be flying treetop low while I was taking of from strips or rivers concealed by trees. They rarely announced on CTAF and never replied to queries about their location even when we suspected they were around. I always enjoyed seeing the Hercs from the ground, though. I have no complaints about the C-17s.
SB
This reminds me of Gillespie field/Ksee where I soloed in 1984. Just north of there you had to stay below 2000 feet because of the F-14's going into Miramar NAS.
The first time they went over your head it scared the crap out of you. Later on I ask a friend of a friend who was a F-14 RIO what it was like from their point of view.
He said "Well we have a TV camera that can see 30 miles and the best threat detection radar in the world" so I stopped asking stupid questions. I'll bet you the C-17 guy's knew exactly where that 150 was.
It amazes me how many jump to conclusions and make assumptions. Like any person “can see a C-17 from 20 miles away”. Well maybe it can be seen, maybe not, and if you do see the C-17 they are 20 miles away, maybe doing 300 plus MPH. At that (a slow rate I would assume) it would only take 4 minutes for them to reach you.
Heidi has been flying in the practice area for over 30 years. She is not some lamer off the street. If she says they were too close, no matter what the distance was then they were to close. PERIOD.
As for the C-17’s being better than the C-130’s , I have seen plenty of times the C-17”s flying in formation at low altitude in the valley and they scare the Bjesis out of me. I agree the military has plenty of space, all the fuel in the world, and has no legitimate need to fly around the Matanuska Valley at a low altitude in formation or not. It is flat-out dangerous.
Good for Heidi for filing the report.
Sounds like this is getting to be a recurring theme topic at .org, remember the thread concerning military airspace a few months back. Seems like the FAA is the one dropping the ball, the military is not able to do what they need to, and GA is getting pushed around. Maybe a grassroots/JBER meeting?
I've flown with Heidi; she's the real deal. She isn't prone to over-reacting, having spent literally thousands of hours training in high-traffic areas. I had a similar experience in that very airplane with her and a c130. They claimed to be 800 ft lower than they were, but if you can HEAR THEM when they pass beneath you, they're TOO CLOSE.
I've also had two F16s from Luke called as "traffic no factor" seconds before they passed so close across my bow that I could plainly see that No. 2 was a female.
Lesson? See and avoid. Quit playing with your gps.
Remember that as long as the C-17 stays below 250 knots, they don't need military airspace to play in. And, they are not limited to altitude they can operate at. This is the conundrum: There is a lot of MOA airspace out there, but these aircraft don't require MOA airspace to do what they do, because they don't have to operate fast.
I was circling a wolf once up north, and had a B-52 pass right under me. I was at just over 500 feet when he went under me...in a valley. That crew was out of South Dakota, it turns out, on some kind of "sneak in from the north" training mission. It blew me away when I discovered that they were perfectly legal doing what they were doing. Definitely got MY attention, in any case. Did they see me?? Who knows?
If Heidi Reuss squawked this, I'm betting it was the real deal. Shooting past someone from BEHIND, even vaguely close is a really bad idea.
MTV
Having been on both sides of this fence in H-60's, C-130's, square and round parachutes, Cessnas and Cubs: Ya the C-17 is BIG. We also can't just tell the military to go fly some where else just because we want to fly their. That would be like telling me I can't fly my Storch in MatValley because its a cub only area. EVERY pilot and crew has the responsibility to avoid ALL other aircraft and hazards. Especially when over taking a less maneuverable airframe from behind, hey remember the old ballons. Most likely by FAA and Air Force Regs. they where with in the separation distances as required. Maybe THAT is the item that also needs to be updated and changed.
I also highly doubt they were out to scare any GA pilots. Every one that flys around the Anch and the valley area know the military does training around Malamute DZ and low-levels thru the valley. We would also put out NOTAM's when doing such, YET I have been under canopy at Malamute and had GA planes fly right thru the DZ underneath me.
Like others have stated the wake turb and the sudden scare of such a large plane that close is enough to give goose bumps let alone flip my plane end to end and into the dust.
Since we all like to fly (mil and civ) maybe we should change the min. distances when approaching aircraft of such different types, speed and sizes?
My 2 cents and eveyone says I am over paid
Enen if i knew a cargo jet was going to pass below me that close going in the same direction there would be a lot more than socks in my boots.
Yep that's why I like to fly with depends already in place
I learned to fly at Aerotech in the early 80's. Seemed like we had issues with F-4s back then. I remember having a close call with 3 of them! I think it's still the old rule see and avoid.
I have a question for the military folks on here. Are most military airplanes equipped with a TCAS type system?
Most of the heavy transport/tanker types (C-17 included) have TCAS. Tactical jets (Hornets, Eagles, F-16's, etc) do not, but most have air-to-air radar which is huge for SA.
Another (hopefully not too dumb) question for those flying with this stuff... will TCAS or air to air radar pick up a small two place tube, wood and fabric airplane ('46 T-Craft) that does NOT have a transponder? I have installed an ELT with a large flat piece of aluminum to mount the antenna and also a small electrical system to support a radio that can monitor multiple frequencies... My home airport is located in the far SE corner of a large and fairly active MOA. Can I call the base ahead of time to find out if any planned training activities that day might involve say... anything under 5000 feet MSL in this particular area? I'll be practicing aerobatic maneuvers in an area East of the (privately owned) runway below 5000 feet (probably under 4000, but not below 2000). There is another similar airplane also based at this airport using this same area for spin training and intro aerobatics, but that one has a transponder. The CFI says there's no issue using the airspace and all the military traffic I have heard (if not observed) seems to be at a much higher altitude. Just wondering if they can "see" me down here... ? tia
TCAS will not see you unless you are equipped with and operating a transponder. Air-to-air radar? Maybe and maybe not. If you are both straight and level and the guy with the radar has you in his scan volume (think of a flashlight beam where the radar is pointed), then there is a decent chance that you'll show up (unless you've got some stealth coating on your T-Craft!Another (hopefully not too dumb) question for those flying with this stuff... will TCAS or air to air radar pick up a small two place tube, wood and fabric airplane ('46 T-Craft) that does NOT have a transponder? I have installed an ELT with a large flat piece of aluminum to mount the antenna and also a small electrical system to support a radio that can monitor multiple frequencies... My home airport is located in the far SE corner of a large and fairly active MOA. Can I call the base ahead of time to find out if any planned training activities that day might involve say... anything under 5000 feet MSL in this particular area? I'll be practicing aerobatic maneuvers in an area East of the (privately owned) runway below 5000 feet (probably under 4000, but not below 2000). There is another similar airplane also based at this airport using this same area for spin training and intro aerobatics, but that one has a transponder. The CFI says there's no issue using the airspace and all the military traffic I have heard (if not observed) seems to be at a much higher altitude. Just wondering if they can "see" me down here... ? tia). If you are both maneuvering or you are out of the scan volume (which is adjustable based on where you want to search) then probably not.
Best bet for MOA's is call FSS before you go and find out the status and altitudes of the MOA. You can also call the controlling agency listed on the Sectional for advisories. The thing to remember about a MOA is that once it is "hot", the aircraft can go anywhere within the vertical and lateral confines of the airspace without talking to anybody and, if it's a tactical jet, it can cover that distance pretty quick (i.e. a Split S from 20,000 feet down to the deck in 10 or 15 sec.) Probably the best thing you've got going is that you say you are in "the far SE corner" of the MOA. Most guys I know don't operate near the corners or edges to ensure they don't spill out and get violated.
Here's another dumb question for anyone. Would that newfangled, soon to be mandatory big brother monitoring system, ADS-B traffic alert system done any good?
My understanding is with the radar on the 15/16/18s, slow movers below 100 mph may simply fall into the background noise, depending on how the pilot has the radar adjusted at that time. Anyone confirm?
Many years ago flying up in the White Mounts MOA NH we were at 500 AGL in a UH-1E, tooling along at a thundering 90 knots (maybe). periodically, especially in a helicopter crew get a feeling of impending dread. I looked out the crew door to the right and down and saw only a slow moving green monster passing perhaps 250 feet below us from our 6 to our 12. After the B-52 flew past us and scooted to another valley the crew came up on 243.0 and were laughing hysterically. We did in fast receive substantial buffet. Military pilots are forever "jumping" one another ie you are flying along minding your own business and another plane usually from your 6 or in a blindspot will race by, usually sometimes with 50 feet separation. Not prudent, but people do it. By and large I have never heard of a crewed aircraft jumping a civilian aircraft simply because there is a witness sitting next to you that may take great upbrage to the scaring the crap out of a civilian. Military aircraft have IFF ( Identification Friend or Foe) that has the ability to interrogate an unidentified aircraft to ascertain if it is IFF capable (military) part of the standard transponder. The newer aircraft, like the F-18, can tell if you have put on clean underwear that morning. The most problematic issue is bored pilots looking for something to do. Could be that they just wanted to break the monotony. Generally speaking, military training flights are not fun and very restrictive.
Marine Corps Aviation since 1966
I've flown in airspace with C-17's here in Fairbanks. They look big from 1000ft, so I'd be worried if one overtook me with only 500ft separation too. But did anyone else catch that they were on different frequencies? The C-17 was talking with Anchorage approch, the C-150 was still on the Wasilla CTAF. I think the only change needed here is to either have GA pilots monitor Anchorage approch as soon as they're a mile or 2 south of Wasilla, or have the military start making position calls on the Wasilla CTAF when in that area. Perhaps the FAA could add a TRSA, like we have in Fairbanks, to the area between Anchorage and Wasilla?
As for air traffic radar detecting planes without transponders, on a clear day the FAI radar can pick up flocks of birds! Several times I've had them give me an advisory for "Unknown traffic, possibly ultralight" only to look as see a flock of geese at that position. And they don't seem to have any trouble getting my position in the Challenger, which at 450lbs empty, has far less metal than a cub or T-craft and cruises at only 60mph.
Phil
I've experienced the same sac shrinking feeling in the same exact area. During my PP training, we were flying to Birchwood, over the Knik Arm, from Goose Bay strip (reference Anch. sectional). We were listening to Anchorage Approach, with our very own assigned squawk code at <2,000'. The approach gal said "turn left immediately, and look behind you". Sure 'nough, a C130 was F*****G close - <300' low, behind and closing SUPER F*****G FAST. So Gabe (best instructor ever) took over and calmly pointed us, in a non-complaining manner, in the least conflicting direction.
I afterwards recalled missed jumps from my days over Sicily Drop Zone on Bragg and other locales, such that I now avoid the Ft Rich Malamute Drop Zone approach area. If you've ever had to "STAND UP" a long time before you jump outa the door, 'specially on multiple approaches, you'd likely side with the guys in back, and just avoid the area.
Visualizing the drop zone approach area is easy, place yourself in the C130/17 pilot seat and imagine kicking paratroops out over Malamute lengthways (the long axis). Given that all pilots are extremely spatially gifted, visualizing any direction and altitude (from the North) that leads to 800' over the mid-drop zone is the "approach area".
To clarify - my technique since has been to side with hungover jumpers in the back of the C130/C17, and avoid the Malamute Drop Zone approach area.
Dwayne B
Disclaimer- This is only my technique, and I'm not sure if the Army throws troops out of C130 these days.
Interesting note....they said they spotted the aircraft approaching from the rear but didn't mention making any kind of evasive move...like a climb maybe?? If you feel threatened do you NOT react??Not criticizing....just seems maybe that would be prudent if they felt it too close. See and avoid as was mentioned above...not see and demand your right of way. No sense being "dead" right as my dad always said.
May not have been fun for them (personally I would have thought it cool too....imagine that....from a "chick"no less) but better that it passed below.
cafi
Ya, long-winded, I should review prior to posting.
I believe Heidi tho, spent 10 hours with her for the required insurance time.
Heidi is a very good and fun instructor, even when she got my attention using her Kung Fu grip on my leg.
Dwayne
Don't forget you can be dead right.
It really doesn't matter you are still dead.
Sandy
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