Last edited by Iflylower; 07-19-2012 at 03:00 PM. Reason: grammar
"If you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman
Who is making the composite tail wheel spring and what is the cost? How different is the husky spring from an !8 spring?
Thomas Dietrich in Germany. $850. Is approved only on the Husky, but obviously would work on an experimental. I see no reason it wouldn't fit a Cub.
Most want a little more weight in tail, not less.
Interesting. Thank you for asking and to MTV for the pricing. I would have to do some checking but my guess is that is going to be pretty expensive per pound weight saved. Still, it is another idea. Thanks again. I'll do some more research.
I would think it much better to go with a titanium tail spring . Light and would cost way less than the one from Thomas Dietrich . I have had one on my plane for 7 years and love it. Its like haveing a spring with a built in shock,
Now that is interesting. Tell me more, please. Where did you get it and how much does it cost?
Amongst other places, I'm pretty sure you can still get a titanium tailwheel tube from Scott at Scott Iron Design http://www.irondesign-airparts.com/index.html for about $135. He also produces a first class and rugged tailwheel of Bob Barrows' design to fit it. http://www.irondesign-airparts.com/tailwheels.htm
Got my Titanium @ supra alloys Camarillo Ca. 805 987 6492
I paid about 80$ but its gone up alot
1.75 x .500 x18" 6al-4v alloy-- 135ksi min yld -- 2.75 lbs#
Bend cold in a press, drills fine but must use a lot of coolent
Last edited by brown bear; 07-20-2012 at 12:00 PM.
Thanks for the inputs on tailsprings guys. Much appreciated.
Get a 6 pack, this is a long post.
Although I did not get a lot of physical work done on the Cub the last couple of weeks I did get a lot of mental work done. Selecting the avionics and layout for your panel can be a pretty daunting task. After-all you will be looking at it a lot and possibly for a long time. My big project at this last Oshkosh was to shop for avionics and to try to make a decision on the panel. Lets talk philosophy a little. Although round dials are the traditional panel and are easy to glance at and read they have a couple of limitations. Namely they have been surpassed by technology. But back to the philosophy stuff. A primary consideration for me is that I want an attitude indicator. If you fly in the mountainous parts of the world, (and getting to and from Alaska counts), you WILL find yourself in scud at some point. Low ceilings, mountain passes, and rapidly changing weather are simply a way of life. I think the most common way to kill yourself in a small airplane, right behind running out of gas, is continued VFR into IFR conditions. Night flight to me is IFR. Although it might be VFR and I may be looking outside at the lights a lot, mentally I am IFR and referencing the instruments. There are just too many visual illusions, especially in sparsely populated areas, to reach out and bite you in the arse. It is a state of mind. So given all these things ........if I end up being IFR, for whatever reason, I want an attitude indicator so I don't go spinning out the bottom of the clouds. Ever notice that it only takes a second to end up in the clouds, but it takes FOREVER to get back out of them. You enter at say 3000' on the altimeter but you won't get out of the bottom until you descend to 2500. It is a Murphys Law thing I think. The IFR set up in my cub will not be legal but it will keep me alive in a pinch, and thats all I need. I do not intend to ever BE IFR but I want that backup. Like wearing a parachute. I don't intend to use it but it is an insurance policy.
So given that philosophy that will drive my panel choices. I could buy just an attitude indicator and keep the panel with round dials, or even just the new Dynon D-1 would work. But also buried in all this is the ever present issue of weight and complexity. You simply can't beat the glass boxes for weight and simplicity. A Dynon EMS (engine monitoring system) box will weigh the same as your tach. So you get oil pressure, oil temp, CHT, EGT, fuel flow and all the other instruments for free. The flight display will weigh the same as your altimeter so you get attitude, airspeed, VVI, heading etc etc for free. Wiring? One cannon plug and one wire bundle and you are about done. A lot easier than wiring all the individual instruments. The electronic display is back lit with built in automatic lighting. So to be comparable all of your individual instruments will need to be internally lit or you will need post lights. Then they all have to be connected to a dimmer switch. It gets heavy and complicated fast. You cut one or two holes in your panel Vs 10 or 15. So for all these reasons I will go glass like the last build.
This is a picture of my last panel. 5 things in the panel. Engine display, flight display, GPS, radio and transponder. That is pretty simple for what you are getting.
This is a rough out of my new panel. I will combine the flight and engine instruments into one box/display. This panel will save about 3 pounds and draw 2 amps less than my last panel. So this time I will have 4 items. Left to right is - Transponder,Flight/Engine panel, GPS, key switch. The bottom row is knobs, radio, rocker switches. The Transponder is the new Sandia unit STX 165. Small, light and relatively inexpensive.
Grand Rapids Technology Sport SX display. Engine system, flight instruments and it has a built in GPS.
GPS - After looking at all the GPS units out there including all the built in ones with GRT, Advanced, Dynon, and the stand alone units like IFLY720, AvMap, Garmin etc I walked away feeling like the Garmin 796 is the 900 pound gorilla. It is by far and away the most intuitive, best unit. It is expensive but WOW, it has everything and more. Just tough to beat. The cutout in the picture above is full size. It is a big unit and you can turn it on its side as pictured. The button labels will be sideways but the display will work fine.
The far right circle is the key ignition switch.
Along the bottom, and aligned for symetry, will be the mixture, carb heat, cabin heat knobs, ICOM 210A radio and then the rocker switches for the Master, Avionics, Nav lights, Strobe, and Landing light power. I prefer the tactile feel to rocker switches Vs toggle switches. YMMV.
Again everything in the panel is back lit so there is no need for separate circuits for lights and dimmers. Keeps it simple.
Lets talk choices a little. I selected the Grand Rapids unit for my engine/flight box Vs the Dynon or Advanced Flight Systems, or Garmin. They are all good so it is really just personal preference. I like the engine display along the bottom of the panel better than the Dynon split screen. Here are a couple of photos so you can see what I am talking about.
Dynon. Although you can customize the display a little you can not get the instruments to align on the bottom with this unit.
Advanced and GRT allow this type display. I prefer it. This is a very personal opinion, YMMV.
(post to keep from losing all this. More to follow)
Last edited by Bill Rusk; 08-02-2012 at 07:23 AM.
It would be possible to use the Dynon Skyview system to keep things even more simple. In one unit you would have your engine instruments, Flight instruments, GPS, and transponder. Add a radio and you have two things in the panel and you are done. Cool. BUT to me that is a very busy display and it becomes hard to quickly scan for just the info you are looking for. Too many things for the eye to pick out in a small space. Plus, I do not like the Dynon GPS. It does not have nearly the amount of detail in the stand alone units and the red terrain is a constant feature that, for us Cub guys, is always present as we are always at an altitude that causes it to be red. The Dynon rep did say there was a back door way to try to get that feature turned off but I was not comfortable with trying to re-program and try to Lie to the unit to get it to do something it did not want to do. Again too Busy for my old eyes anyway.
Radio - after a lot of research I did not come away with a good feeling regarding the reliability, service, and features (other than size and weight) of the smaller radios like Becker, Xcom, Micro and the new Trig unit. That left two options. Garmin SL40 and ICOM. The Garmin is 600 dollars more than the ICOM and thats a bunch. I had the ICOM in my last cub and it seemed to work quite well. The built in intercom worked well too. One less thing in the panel. The unit may not be quite as easy to "program" as I would like but it was, and still is, the best option to me.
A couple of more thoughts.
I am trying to keep the panel as small as possible. Some of the cub panels, especially the ones with a full compliment of steam gages are pretty big. Square on top (blocks your forward visibility) and deep on the bottom (bang your knees getting in and out). With the glass and a simple arrangement I will be able to put the bottom of the panel right even with the bottom of the mounting point (and the cross tubes). This will make entry and exit easier and may also allow for a little taller stick. Sometimes the Supercub stick feels a little short to me. This should help.
I will also put all the knobs/cables (carb heat, mixture, cabin heat etc) in a sub panel so that I do not have to disconnect them to pull the panel. Makes future maintenance much easier.
Autopilot - another option with the glass is the possibility of an autopilot. Don't laugh. Lou F has one and I respect Lou. He has flown that Cub a bunch more (and to more fly-ins) than anyone else I know and part of the reason is it is comfortable to do so. I do not plan on doing this but it is an option.
Some folks have said "what about a failure - you will lose everything and all at once" My response is - Its a Cub, I'm VFR, I'll look out the window and land." If I happen to be IFR, I'm already in an emergency situation and if I get a compound emergency, well, that may just be my time to go.
The lightest and simplest panel would be the 7 required VFR gages. Airspeed, Altitude, Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, Compass, Tac and Fuel quanity. However that panel might be limiting. A radio and transponder are pretty much required these days and how about the ability to extend the day with an early morning night take off or a landing just a little after dark? That can be a really good option when going cross country. Then you might want the attitude indicator just in case. And now you have a panel that looks like ............
I hope this helps but please remember, its just my opinion.
Last edited by Bill Rusk; 08-01-2012 at 11:37 AM.
Bill why would you add all that weight to a light weight airplane? I changed my panel in my airplane to a MGL extreme weight is 1.1 lbs sensors weigh 14 oz has all the features you speak of an more ! radio MGL V10 radio with intercom 8.8 oz wiring 10 oz transponder with encoder trig 1lb installed , I really don't know why an expert like yourself would use such heavy avionics !! mikeo
Folks I am certainly NOT an expert. Just trying to help and pass on what I can.
Wow, cool. Looks like Mike may have found some better options. Lots of choices now.
I don't know much about these but they are certainly worth looking into.
Last edited by Bill Rusk; 08-02-2012 at 11:12 AM.
Nice unit. Wish I would have seen that before I bought a second XCOM for my other plane. I used an XCOM in the Experimental Cub as it was the only radio I could find that offered the ability to add on a second display/control head for the back seat. Nice unit, but seems to have issues with my headsets when the headset battery gets low. But the MGL would have been a good unit for my other plane for $400 less.
Looks great Bill, nice panel! The MGL radio looks nice but hard to beat the nice bright display of the Icom IC-A210.
The one thing I don't like about the IC-A210 is the faceplate has to be removed to pull out the radio. The ribbon cable isn't very sturdy and I get a little paranoid when removing the unit. The 200 was much nicer to work on.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
"To be born free is an accident. To live free is a privilege. To die free is a responsibility."
--- Brig. Gen. Robby Risner
Bill - I had a terrible experience with the GRT equipment holding up, and I ended up pulling it out of my last plane and re-doing the panel from scratch. I know of at least one other person who had similar frustrations. On the other hand, my experience with the Garmin G500 and the Dynon have both been superlative - both in terms of customer support and reliability. I would agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the Becker radios. Having owned one since 2006, and wrestled with all kinds of noise issues, coupled with terrible support, it is a brand I would not consider any time soon.
I'm planning my panel now, and will probably go with the Dynon 10.4" Skyview and either a Garmin GTN series WAAS receiver, or the Avidyne 540 (if it ever ships).
I'm also building a Javron cub, and you're proving to be a terrific pathfinder for me!
Thanks for that input, hopefully GRT has the bugs worked out. I do agree that the Dynon is a great product. Had it in my last panel and was quite pleased. I would love to see a preview of your panel. Perhaps I can steal and idea or two. Doug up in Washington is also going with the Skyview. It will be fun to see all the glass panel Cubs. Who would have thought.......glass in a Cub.
I don't have my cub panel planned quite yet, but here is the last panel I built up for my L39.
I have found these clips to be useful on the tabs that the top plexiglass is fastened to. 4972-5-62.jpghttp://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...es/clipnut.php They are a useful option to riveted on plate nuts.
I get nervous about using PK screws which are difficult to be certain that they are tight enough to hold and loose enough so as to not damage the plexi while still not backing out due to vibration. So, I am using these clips with 8-32 machine screws. They can be tightened and then backed off a turn while still being locked in place.
Bill, How's the Javron build going? Did Jay get the new wing design done? Don
Vans RV7 finished 2008
Backcountry Super Cub finished 2011
Don and all
Since Oshkosh, and before really, I have invested a lot of time in rebuilding the Warner engine in the Hatz Biplane. I needed to sell the Hatz but I also needed to know, and feel in my heart, that the engine was top notch before I could sell it. I finished the engine and sold it to a great guy that loves to give rides and share his Blessings so I know it went to a good home. But all that pretty much shut down the cub progress for several months. I am hoping that I can focus on the Cub now and "git er done".
I went up to Javron on Monday and we cut my instrument panel. MMR put my panel in a CAD program and we laid it out. Thank you Mark. (nice to have friends), he then sent the DXF file to Jay so we could use his CAD router table. Man that is cool stuff. I was like a kid in a toy store. I love all those tools. Wish I knew how to use them all.
Here are some photos and details.......
This is Mike, all around great guy, does CAD, Purchasing, Inventory control, etc. Is often the guy that answers the phone when not doing something else. Sharp guy. Mike mapped my Garmin 796 and fed that info into the DXF file. It was spot on.
This is Jim B. Welder and Fab guy.
This is Ryan O. This guy does REALLY nice artwork with a welder. He is the one that welded the motor mount shown in a previous post on this thread. Beautiful workmanship. Thank you Ryan.
It is just fun to wander around the shop and see all the cool Cub stuff. Need an axle nut? Here is a whole box of them.
It might be a little hard to see but there are a bunch of seats up there. Ready to go.
Need some tail feathers or perhaps a gear assembly? That is just so cool......
Martin H....this is your fuselage in the jig......Jay had three fuselages under construction....
Took a lunch break with Jay, Brad (CubusMaximus the awesome photographer) and Craig (builder of the Viking Cub that Brad so heavily photo documented). Great guys all
Back to the shop where Jay did some tweeking to the CAD files.......
Then on to the cutting table.......
Go baby go...saved me about a weeks work....
And this is a rough look at what the panel will look like.....
Jay also has a file for and can cut floorboards.....so if you need a set he might be cheeper....or he might be able to cut it from different stock.......
Part of the rest of the shop. I suspect this is where Javron makes their money.
Then we went to the wing shop to see the progress there. Jay tested one panel but felt the aft spar was twisting too much, (pretty much right where they figured it would) so they designed a fix. Jay felt like he might get the testing done this week then he should be ready to go building wings. He does not have a weight yet but he felt it was going to be pretty close to the factory but structured to go to 2200 pounds gross weight. It will be a little heavier (3 to 5 pounds) than the original 13 rib wing but WAY lighter than just about every other option. My guess is we will end up being about 15 plus pounds lighter per panel than my last Smith Kit wings. Jay did not have exact numbers but he did say the drag/anti-drag wires alone were "pounds" lighter than the drag tubes used in the Smith and Backcountry wings. Plus I will go from the 24 gallon tanks down to the standard 18 gallon tanks and use a pod for those times when I need more fuel. That alone will save probably close to 10 pounds. Lighter tips, lighter ribs, lighter tanks, it all adds up. But still engineered to be strong.
Aft spar beef up
Extra tail rib where the cove changes shape for more rigidity
I feel really good about everything Jay has done so far and I continue to be excited about the Cub I am building.
More to follow soon as I get back to work on this baby.
Hope this helps
Last edited by Bill Rusk; 10-10-2012 at 06:20 AM.
A couple of other thoughts regarding this trip up North
Steve L and I got a chance to spend some time with Darrell Starr and it was great as always. Darrell is a great host and got Steve and I a private tour of the museum there. Wow, that was really cool, lots of neat airplanes and all in flyable condition. Several tri-motors of different types. Just lots of cool airplanes from the Golden Age. Anoka airport is a great place with lots of activity. If you are passing through Minneapolis I highly recommend you stop in there and say Hi to Darrell and Vivian. Steve and I also spent some time looking over Darrell's Cub. It is incredible. The attention to detail is superb. You can certainly see the meticulous detail by a professional engineer. The hangar is spotless as is the Cub. The nicest I have seen.
Darrell with his Cub
Jay at Javron is also working on a carbon fiber nose bowl. This is a prototype with a gel coat finish. He also has one that is all carbon fiber, no gel coat, that is much lighter. Details to follow as he gets further into that project.
Bachelor party in front of Randy's (WindOnHisNose) 206. Nice plane which Randy flies very well indeed. Very professional.
L to R.....Chris (Randy's son) Randy, me, Steve L
L to R.....Randy's lovely daughter Brianne, his son Chris and Chris's wife Jen with Randy's first grandson on the way
Wow, what a trip
What rib spacing will you end up with?? How many ribs? Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the update Bill. Don
Vans RV7 finished 2008
Backcountry Super Cub finished 2011
The wings look great Bill. I talked to Jay about a week ago, about the ribs. I am going to use them on my new project. I am starting to build an Experimental finally. I may have questions for you from time to time, and would love to talk to you on the phone about your project. I will be watching for the updates on your project. Hopefully it will be done soon, and you can fly it up to Alaska. Talk to you soon. Ron Kuzina. 907-232-1475
Olibuilt - I do not know just yet what the final iteration of the wing will be. I guess whatever it takes to safely handle a 2200 pound gross.
Don - you are welcome.
How to make a portable GPS into a panel mount.
The 796 has a nice big screen for us older types and it also more closely matches the flight data screen size so there ya go. I had Jay map the shape and put it in the CAD program when he cut my panel so I had a very tight, clean opening in the panel for my 796. (Jay can do this for others as well.) I also needed it to be proud of the panel so it would match the rest of the avionics that have bezels. So I built a box out of .025 the size of the GPS. I used .025 rather than .020 or less due to the need for rigidity based on the touch screen design. The unit comes with a mounting plate of sorts. It is definitely not made for any type of panel mount as it is shaped in a rather odd way that makes this whole process rather difficult. Here is the bracket supplied with the unit.......
This latches on to the back of the GPS and has a little release button.
Looks like this..........
So I built a box out of .025......
Next we rivet the box into the panel.............
The little half moon opening is for access to the release button on the bracket. I will have to reach up under the panel to get the GPS out of the panel but I don't think it will be a problem. I doubt I'll take it out very often. I was quite surprised to find that this, "top of the line unit", does not have an automotive function in it. It comes on automatically when tied into the power of the aircraft (when you turn on the avionics power) and goes off as well, so there is no need to access the power on/off switch.
Then we bolt in the bracket..............
And.....TaDaaa......the GPS snaps right in............
There are lots of ways to skin a cat and certainly you may have a better way but perhaps this will give you something to think about. Hope it helps.
Very cool Bill. That is a great installation. Very clean look indeed.
"Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right!"
Jay cut the panel for the Aussie Cub. Sent it to Javalina in Texas and they laser etched all the stenciling. Don IMG_1178.JPG
Vans RV7 finished 2008
Backcountry Super Cub finished 2011
Looking great Bill!
Looking good Bill. Gives me some incentive to keep going. Keep taking picts and posting.
Based at O8XS. Sweeny Texas (Winter)
Finlayson Lake, Ontario (Summer)
I plan on living forever.......so far, so good !!!
Looks great and is giving me way too many ideas!
Bill Thanks fore all the work you have done fore this thead you are a inspiration to us all! Thank you very much. Ron