Light wing build

GSMX440
It sounds like you are on top of it and will have a fun plane when done !
Doug

qsmx440 said:

a cheap Harbor Freight roller to form the bend...I like the roller machine since it will not kink the tube like other methods and there is no need to fill with sand or other measures


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I guess I missed this the first time around. Tell me more about this roller. Still like it, still recommend it? Looks like exactly what I'm looking for.

Yes it's an excellent piece for the money. You do have to keep the tube the same way up or down as you increase the bend and it does require a couple of feet of waste that you cut off. I think I made a line down the pipe with a marking pen. My son used it for stainless tubing on a bimini he made for his boat and others have used it for various projects. For the tail feathers it is ideal. Make up your pattern on plywood with some scrap pieces of wood screwed here and there and then roll and check the fit, rinse and repeat, do the areas with a tighter radius last. making the tail tubing was one of the easier projects.

D.A. said:

I guess I missed this the first time around. Tell me more about this roller. Still like it, still recommend it? Looks like exactly what I'm looking for.

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2016

More boring "kinda" scratch built stuff

5-23
Still working on riveting skills for the 4 center steel rivets in the left aileron bellcrank-spar-hinge sandwich. Started to get some decent ones after 100 practice ones in scrap. I tend to bend these over more than drive them down straight and centered. Think I have a system. The big problem besides skill on this is steel rivets are waaay harder to drive and this is compounded by the bell crank head side rivet heads being up under the bell crank flange around a corner. You need 5 hands and the arms of a boiler maker. Oh and just to make it interesting the rivets on the hinge side are right smack against the edge of the hinge bends! Whew. (Dinking around with some progress)
3.0 hrs

5-24
Drilled and cleco-ed the above parts in the left aileron. Shot my rivets. Not totally satisfied with them. Going to sleep on it. 3.0 hrs

5-27
Eureka! Did the right aileron and discovered I had been using slightly to long of a shank on my rivets which along with the gun "skating" off the head was the problem. I solved the skating problem two ways: First I started stabbing the trigger for extremely short bursts checking the shank between bursts, If it started to bend in any way I would slightly adjust my next "shot" to straighten it up. Second was to give myself some training wheels on the tool/rivet interface. This consisted of a strip of 220 grit sandpaper set between the tool head and the rivet (moved to a new spot on the sandpaper after each burst). I found as I practiced I didn't need the sandpaper so much after the first couple of bursts. My rivets compared perfectly to the factory rivets in a wrecked aileron sample I have. I will go back and replace my rivets in the left wing as I am not happy with them.

A little thought on assembly order and other problems. First to install these you have to notch both sides of the spar to fit the bell crank. After notching and before riveting this makes the spar extremely weak and bendy. Keep it on the bench or blocks as needed to protect it from bending or if you must move it at this point tape a long board with spacers to it to protect it! I'm not done yet but it appears the order is: Rivet 3 hinges and center bell crank, then rear ribs, then rivet the leading edge assemblies with the bulkheads already installed and riveted while mounted in a jig. The twist is built in as you rivet the leading edge on. Check hinge alignment constantly. The previous was "beta" and after I've actually finished one I'll update as needed. I would say these rivets have cost me 1 year of being "stuck" mentally (along with a couple of back operations and other excuses) on this project and about 50 hours of failure building riveting jigs and other useless stuff. In the end this turned out to be a manual/skill operation. A rivet squeezer does not have the "umff" to do this IMHO. I ordered the spars originally from Javron and I should have just had him install the center hinge bellcrank assy before shipping. I set a deadline a week ago of just that if I didn't figure this out. I was just going to order new ones if I didn't get this job done in a week and scrap bin this stuff!

During this build I have tried to use Harbor Freight type tools that the average Joe could afford or purchase to do this stuff. I have a fancy squeezer, laser cutter/engraver, 3D printer and a small machine shop and some other upscale tools but they were mostly for convenience. In the pictures is that weird shaped hardened "buck" mounted in the machinists vice that I don't know how I could have done this without it. I did get lucky a few years back on a craigslist buy from a retired Boeing mechanic and got a bunch of riveting stuff and along with a bunch of other bucks this was in the box. You will have to duplicate it's weird bends to do this job. Also I used the buck on the "factory head" side of the rivet (up under the flange on the bell crank which is the problem), The shop side was done with a flat end tool with a flat ground on one side to get closer to the edge of the hinge. It appears to me the factory did the same thing! The gun is just a HF 55 gallon drum "can opener" 10 bucks on sale. Air pressure set to 40 lbs. It comes with some cutting tool that could easily be ground to mimick my fancy driver and I'm sure sure would last through the 8 rivets on this job. Buy 100 rivets (I'll edit in the part number later. 7-8- dollars) and get your skill up before destroying your spar/hinges.

Well I'm off to find Pierce's posts about his jig and then find the scrap to build one.

Pictures:

Practice piece before I figured this out. Note factory side over flattened.


Here is alignment in edge plane hinge centers only which is all that matters at this point. Laser is in foreground out of the picture but is firing through center of outboard hinge. Picture is of center and inboard hinge. Laser is hot glued into position to be centered on the outboard and inboard end hinge and then the center hinge is hot glued into position before being clamped and drilled.



Some of the tools: note the weird buck in the vice and the ground off driving tool laying on the vice screw.


I will add a picture of the finished rivets later. I forgot to take one!?

Some weeks you should just do something else!! I even had an example sitting there.


Only the end bulkheads are riveted, not the top and bottom of the leading edges, so only 14 rivets to remove. I must have put my shoes on backwards that day. I remember checking and triple checking and changing my mind a couple of times as I was really worried about doing this. uggh!

Ok right way round now! Minus 6 hours on the build. But for what it's worth, that aileron was the first I mounted the leading edges to and I got progressively better at riveting (and removing rivets) while building the flaps and now it seems to be a piece of cake. I still have to mount the leading edge to the right aileron but it should go fast now, maybe 3-4 hours.

After the right one I still have to go back a "jig" all four controls surfaces and finish the top and bottom leading edge rivets.

That's better:


I am not sure why the "old" upside down picture is still attached to this post but the aileron is correct now!

So continuing this build I have finished the flaps and ailerons to the point of inspection, meaning for the most part I pushed through the build of these four items and left the odd dodgy rivet and now will go over these with a fine tooth comb and mark anything that doesn't meet specs and will replace that item.

I built the flaps first with the thinking that my skill level would improve with each item and indeed that was the case. The first flap took a couple of weeks and the last aileron took two days. The first flap will require the most replacing of rivets and the last aileron will not require any corrections.

I have a question on the hinge rivets on the flaps and the outer hinges on the ailerons. I used AN455A - 4 rivets. These are the soft aluminum rivets. Should I change these for a harder alloy?? The center aileron rivets are the correct steel rivets so they are fine.

During this build I finally ponyed up for a hand powered rivet squeezer (159$ with sets and gauges). I should have bought that originally instead of the air powered equipment I got.


First picture shows one of the ailerons with center hinge and horn mounted. All parts were coated with primer (zinc chromate) before being riveted together.




Here I am milling slots for the trailing edge to fit over the back of the ribs. Note: I used the D&E trailing edge material. I believe it to be a little heaver and not as good as the bent piece piper specs. It does work but has a little "bump" on both sides. I made some wood (3, one inside and two outside bevels) to keep the vice from collapsing material. A bit futsy so practice on some cutoff scrap before committing to the real piece



Here the aileron horns and hinges riveted with the steel rivets that were so hard to do. I would recommend buying the spars from Javron with these already done to this point



This is the D&E trailing edge with one slot machined.


The next couple of pictures are of and aileron with the ribs attached. NOTE: do not do as I did but instead follow Mikes advice and attach the "end" bulkheads of each leading edge section at this point! I didn't and it caused way more work than should have been necessary. Another windmill 10 hours!



Cleco'ed and taped together for now.

This all happened over weeks so I'll give this a minimum of 30 hours Mostly learning to rivet and remove bad rivets.

milling trailing edge, hmmm i might have to try that!! (piper style...)

any hints or lessons you learned?? so I don't have to learn the hard or exciting way of parts flying across the shop (again..)

qsmx440 said:

So continuing this build I have finished the flaps and ailerons to the point of inspection, meaning for the most part I pushed through the build of these four items and left the odd dodgy rivet and now will go over these with a fine tooth comb and mark anything that doesn't meet specs and will replace that item.

I built the flaps first with the thinking that my skill level would improve with each item and indeed that was the case. The first flap took a couple of weeks and the last aileron took two days. The first flap will require the most replacing of rivets and the last aileron will not require any corrections.

I have a question on the hinge rivets on the flaps and the outer hinges on the ailerons. I used AN455A - 4 rivets. These are the soft aluminum rivets. Should I change these for a harder alloy?? The center aileron rivets are the correct steel rivets so they are fine.

During this build I finally ponyed up for a hand powered rivet squeezer (159$ with sets and gauges). I should have bought that originally instead of the air powered equipment I got.


First picture shows one of the ailerons with center hinge and horn mounted. All parts were coated with primer (zinc chromate) before being riveted together.

View attachment 26639


Here I am milling slots for the trailing edge to fit over the back of the ribs. Note: I used the D&E trailing edge material. I believe it to be a little heaver and not as good as the bent piece piper specs. It does work but has a little "bump" on both sides. I made some wood (3, one inside and two outside bevels) to keep the vice from collapsing material. A bit futsy so practice on some cutoff scrap before committing to the real piece

View attachment 26640

Here the aileron horns and hinges riveted with the steel rivets that were so hard to do. I would recommend buying the spars from Javron with these already done to this point

View attachment 26641

This is the D&E trailing edge with one slot machined.
View attachment 26636

The next couple of pictures are of and aileron with the ribs attached. NOTE: do not do as I did but instead follow Mikes advice and attach the "end" bulkheads of each leading edge section at this point! I didn't and it caused way more work than should have been necessary. Another windmill 10 hours!

View attachment 26637

Cleco'ed and taped together for now.

This all happened over weeks so I'll give this a minimum of 30 hours Mostly learning to rivet and remove bad rivets.

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Well I don't think Piper did these this way at all. The diagram for the parts shows them being cutout before being bent. This D&E part looks almost like an extrusion or at least a heavy piece of sheet metal. You will notice it's just a piece bent over on the trailing edge and in the front has two lips that converge on each other with a gap. It was difficult to deal with. Because the holes are not important structurally you could just cut and hog them out and then cover the mess up. Since I had a milling machine I made up an inside piece of wood that fit the inside shape perfectly and then two outside wedge shaped pieces that were shaped to bring the whole sandwiched mess back to square to mount in the vice. High speed plunging (ball nosed cutter) cuts moved in the X axis very slowly finally produced an acceptable part. After each cut the wood pieces which were about 5" long were slid to the next position and repeat. Tedious at best but I listen to the radio and time goes by. I'm not earning a living here.

Mike any ideas on the -4 rivets for the hinges? I did get the aileron horn rivets right. I used the 455 soft rivets (for the aluminum ones). Is that OK or do I need stronger alloy aluminum hinge rivets?

As to tips- My posts probably mostly serve as warnings how not to do things. I seem to have to do stuff over and over. It's hard when there isn't a manual on assembly order. Most of my pieces seem of good quality but then I assemble in the wrong order and have to do it all over again. The information I know is available somewhere but over the years I sometimes forget what I used to know.

So this is to conclude the aileron and flaps build I did over the past few weeks.

First the forms that were used on to build the leading edges a year or so ago were used again to jig the final build. They were built on a laser cutter (affectionately referred to as "the cheap Chinese laser" in the CNC world.) that cost me $470.00 delivered to my door. I have both a 3D printer and this laser cutter. I like the 3D printer but I would replace this machine in a heart beat if I had to. It is the goto machine for a lot of projects. I make custom stamps ( I should make some for SJ I guess!) and etch glass and aluminum (anodized) and it cuts 1/4 inch plywood. The only thing I would do is replace it with a bigger one.


The forms were designed using the really poor software that came with the machine. I have modded the machine with air assist and adjustable table, two must haves for the machine. Here it is cutting the heavy cardboard for the forms:





And the final product, single piece and several pieces glued together which makes a very strong form you can easily press aluminum into form and the jig the "bulkhead" ribs and rivet.


And here is one of the controls in the jig and being final riveted.





The upper angle iron was stood off the same distance as the form bottoms and then the angle iron was adjusted to have the 3/8" twist on the outboard end before riveting.

Using "winding sticks" to confirm twist:


And all four controls finished except aileron ends since I have to order some AN3 steel rivets to make the end ribs.


I started to build the wing hanger brackets but I think I will switch gears and make the wing false spars next and begin assembling the wing to make sure the ailerons, flaps and wing bottoms all line up correctly. These parts were scratch built except for the spars and hinges and took about 100 hours for the parts in this post. I believe a forth assembly would only take 8 hours total and be a better product but such is reinventing the wheel.

the Univair trailing edge blanks come screwed together, and with no holes.... so milling a slot seems like it would be worth a shot... instead of drilling 4 holes and dremeling the scrap out for each rib.... now to see if any scrap is around here...

Here you go Mike:

First the pieces as I stored them away


Here they are as inserted in the blank and squaring up the sides for mounting in the vice.


And the end mill profile, I think it's a 3/8"



I used the fastest speed my Charter Oak mill would go. Very slow "X" feed. It did work good and didn't take very long to do. You do need clearance for the blank on the sides of your mill but you can do half and then turn it around if that works in your shop. Using the Piper style folded piece should work even better since the end is closed instead of like the D&E which wants to spread.

I think I'm going to move on to the wing false spar sheet metal. Lacking any thing wider than my 30" 3 in 1 machine I could roll and form the pieces 30" at a time and spot weld AND flush rivet them together to get the 60 and 45" pieces or maybe design more cardboard forms to cut in the laser and then "slot" bend like I did with the aileron/flap leading edges.??

Compression strut picture

qsmx440 said:

Spaincub that seems like a really good idea on the face of it. One thing that would concern me when using CF or even heavier walled metal parts in a wing is could you be introducing stress points the original designers didn't want. Is everything designed to bend and flex together with each part designed to do it's share of flexing in heavy turbulence? If one part winds up to stiff then another part has to flex more? I once flew through something that made my Cessna 172 fuselage "oil can". That was not a pretty sound! Smashed an expensive camera on the ceiling at the same time. Planes need to bend and not break. BUT CF struts would allow an encapsulated nut and a bonded foot on each end probably cutting the overall weight in half at least. My completed 14222 compression struts (the main ones with a foot on each end) using standard rivets and my own billet inserts weigh 8.68 oz. each. I have one that is using Dakota inserts and with I will have to assemble it with bolts and that one comes in at 11 oz. I ordered all my tubes precut from Dakota (beautiful by the way and perfectly cut) but one replacement they sent had the inserts already in it and they are "stuck" in the tube so I can't really see what the difference between theirs and mine is. They may be glued in somehow? I'll just use them as is. I didn't "lighten" my inserts as much as the Piper original cast ones so another ounce or two could probably be shaved using originals.

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Do you have a picture of your compression struts with the foot on each end? Any new ideas on compression struts? Thank you.

Jonnyo said:

Do you have a picture of your compression struts with the foot on each end? Any new ideas on compression struts? Thank you.

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I thought I had posted pictures before but I couldn't find them so I dug around and came up with these from 2010 or so:
First I used a block of wood to press with and my milling machine vice adjusted to press into. I didn't own a press back then so I used the machine quil to force the blank into the mold. Quick and dirty.Note extra pieces of stiff sheet metal on each side to help make the bend even.





Various pieces finished and unfinished for compression strut builds. Miss my bird!



Here is the completed bend. Note the bottom lands on a piece of steel to be bent back to flat at the end. Without that the bottom "bows". Also note soft jaws inserted at end of bend and that PVC covering is left on blank during the bend.


Starting to put one of the "N" struts together:



A foot starting to be riveted


The slug has to be installed before the last rivet is put in.


Here is the completed stack ready to build the wings.


Hope this helps and I am sure I posted some of this a few years ago but I can't find it now. This was all scratch built except for the tube blanks which came from Dakota Cub. I was not able to source the correct tubing (size, corner radius, and thickness) anywhere else at that time.

qsmx440 said:

I thought I had posted pictures before but I couldn't find them so I dug around and came up with these from 2010 or so:
First I used a block of wood to press with and my milling machine vice adjusted to press into. I didn't own a press back then so I used the machine quil to force the blank into the mold. Quick and dirty.Note extra pieces of stiff sheet metal on each side to help make the bend even.
View attachment 26702




Various pieces finished and unfinished for compression strut builds. Miss my bird!

View attachment 26705

Here is the completed bend. Note the bottom lands on a piece of steel to be bent back to flat at the end. Without that the bottom "bows". Also note soft jaws inserted at end of bend and that PVC covering is left on blank during the bend.
View attachment 26704

Starting to put one of the "N" struts together:

View attachment 26706

A foot starting to be riveted
View attachment 26707

The slug has to be installed before the last rivet is put in.
View attachment 26708

Here is the completed stack ready to build the wings.
View attachment 26709

Hope this helps and I am sure I posted some of this a few years ago but I can't find it now. This was all scratch built except for the tube blanks which came from Dakota Cub. I was not able to source the correct tubing (size, corner radius, and thickness) anywhere else at that time.

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Nice work. Thank for your reply.

Stearman compression strut

D.A. said:

Steve, I've been thinking about your post and I would imagine that some of the clipped wing T-Crafts have doubled up ribs for the very same reason. If I remember correctly the T-Cart has the same compression members, or at least very similar. I guess that would stand to reason since the same guy designed both airplanes. I also thought about your comment about running a compression strut at top and bottom of the spar. By doing that you're basically re-inventing a Stearman compression strut (without the cross bracing). I think what Chris and I may do is create something like what you're talking about for our ship. Rather than a single tube, we'll create a truss beam (there's that deeper web strength again) similar to a Stearman compression member or doubling up the stock Piper compression members.
Once again Steve, I owe ya'

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Thanks guys, great thread. Here is a photo of a Stearman compression strut.

I have always wished people would bring their unfinished planes to airshows. Not much to see or learn from all of those rows and rows of planes, once all of the glossy paint dries.

D.A. said:

This thread is just another example of the knowledge in this group. Really interesting. As far as cable being used in "squaring" aircraft rigging, remember that most aircraft up into the thirties were braced with cable. The Jenny had flying and landing wires that were cable back woven and soldered. Once rigged, you usually don't have to touch it from then on. The trammeling cross braces on my Travel Air are made from rolls of "Hard wire", hence the term hard wire bracing. The wire is simply loped through a turnbuckle eye, bent back over and run through a wound ferule and bent back. The compression members are just ribs made out of 1/4" solid spruce rather than the normal 3/16" spruce. They also glue a diagonal piece of 1/2 or 3/4 (I can't remember) square spruce lengthwise to strengthen the rib and that's it. I guess what I'm trying to say is there are a lot of ways to skin a cat when it comes to maintaining wing squareness.



The compression members are only there to keep a preload off of the ribs. In other words, the two spars are two sides of a box. The trammel wires are there to square the box but in order to square the box you have to draw the wires in an appropriate way to produce that squareness. However, when you draw the wires in you put in inward pressure on the spars. The compression members are there to hold the spars apart, creating the final two sides of the box. Properly done, there should be no preload or compression of the ribs. Also, there really shouldn't be any "Shear" on the plug in the square aluminum Piper compression member. The bolt which goes through the spar is basically just a pin. Some Pipers didn't even use steel bolts. The plug is just there to hold the bolt (pin) in. Once the square tube is pressed against the spar web, there shouldn't be any shear load between the tube and the plug. The Stearman, for all its load carrying and G pulling capability has aluminum bolts holding the compression members in. A Pitts (I believe) has wood compression members and drills holes through the spars to run the trammel wires through and tightens the nut on the other side of the spar against an angled wood block. The Travel Air even has hard wire bracing in the fuselage bays as does a Jenny. Wires or cables or anything "crossed" in a trammel bay is not designed for compression in any way, only tension. The cross braces like Piper's tank bays are both compression and tension. You could build the entire wing with either. And if you have a stressed skin wing, wood or metal, you don't need internal trammeling or Vee wing struts at all (The Maule is a long story). Chris and I could build our wood SC wings (actually Wag 2+2) with wood compression members if we wanted.
Many different ways to do the same thing and they all work. Good discussion. Sharp group!
D.A.

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How does a Maule do it differently?

Jonnyo said:

View attachment 33569

Thanks guys, great thread. Here is a photo of a Stearman compression strut.

I have always wished people would bring their unfinished planes to airshows. Not much to see or learn from all of those rows and rows of planes, once all of the glossy paint dries.

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WOW my old thread! I almost forgot about it. I took a right turn a couple of years back and started working on the O-320 I have for this project. Several years ago I bought this 700 hour engine from a member here that was properly pickled. I had decided a couple of years ago to tear it down for an inspection and probably leave it apart (with the cam in preservative) and so I started volunteering with the local I.A. Long story short I have been working for him for two years ( as a paid employee) and after another year I will take my A&P test. I have purchased two hangers since then and a Cessna 182 straight tail (great airplane and my regular flyer) and just purchased a Piper Apache (runs but a project) for my A&P doctorate and to help empty the bank account further. Soooo the L21 clone is on the back burner for now. I have rebuilt several engines in the past year but mine is still on the bench in the garage. Go figure. That's the current status of this thread and my build.

Sounds like a lot of working A&Ps.

qsmx440 said:

Well I have researched SC.org, google, etc. etc. and decided to start a light wing building thread to try and get some of my questions answered. Many of the threads I followed ended without conclusion. IE whatever happened to the carbon fiber wing build? Did it fly? How much did it weigh? I don't really need the answer to that, it was just an example of how some of the threads went along and then no "ribbons on it" so to speak.

I'm attempting a 1320# gross weight super cub build based on a 1977 totally bare fuse I have. I have built tail pieces (six) from scratch. I have a box of "schneider" stamped ribs (3 piece type for the main wings). Control surfaces will be scratch built. So my parameters are safety, and lite, lite, lite. At this point I'm mainly interested in conventional construction, not carbon fiber etc. I am of course planning the usual "lightning" methods. No electrical at all, 6" wheels (looking for cheap wheels), single puck (I have the cleaveland calipers), bungees, no interior, No rear seat (if thats what it takes), narrow deck o-320 (I have firewall forward <300# measured).

The wing: Like the tail this will have to be mostly scratch built. I want to base it on the PA-18 with flaps. I'm not interested in speed so minimal ribs would be fine. I'm think 13 ribs/wing. I have purchased D&E front and rear spar blanks.

Questions:
1. I would like to make the leading edge skins (other than tank area that would be .025) from .016 2024 T6. Dis regarding dents etc. would this be strong enough? .020 adds about 4# to leading edge. 8# if trailing edge requires thicker. This question comes because of a comment Mike made concernig 2024 being stronger than stock 3003.

2. How about .016 for the trailing edge? To weak for supporting flap hanger/hinges? If to weak maybe double up for a few inches in that area?

3. The D&E wing uses a heavy sheet of aluminum under the tank bay as a "drag strut?" to replace the tube going through the fuel tank. Actually in stock wing it's two tubes since there is the "welded to the tank" tube and the actual drag strut tube passing through it. What does everyone think about the concept both strength and weight wise of the torque plate vs drag strut tube? If it wasn't any heavier I would want to incorporate that "torque plate" idea and avoid the more complicated fuel tank construction.

4.Using the extruded compression (D&E) parts is tempting but it looks to me that the original type square tube compression struts would be lighter. Maybe not with all the extra little parts.

5. I am looking at Christian Sturms site for diagrams but find some are not there for the PA-18-150 as per the parts book. Does the Northlanmd CD have all those missing diagrams like 14387, 14389 concerning the LE skins?

Comments? Thanks

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My super cub has wooden ribs and wooden wing spars. The total weight is 1108. It has 150 hp. I am not sure how many ribs are in the wings. But they are standard llength.


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Flying_Fin said:

My super cub has wooden ribs and wooden wing spars. The total weight is 1108. It has 150 hp. I am not sure how many ribs are in the wings. But they are standard llength.


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The maximum weight is 1800 pounds. It also has 30 gallons of tank space.


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I want to build a STOL Wagabond, but have to keep it a LSA. Can I use a tripacer or colt fuselage if I manufacture all the other parts myself and get it approved. Would also like to get the stall speed down on it if possible. Should wings be made longer and extend fuselage? Open to all suggestions.

The shortcut of coming to this forum and asking if you can use a Tirpacer Fuselage seems nice and easy. But this forum is not an authority. let the authority that certifies your aircraft be the authority that answers your question.

The first link below is the FAA document that a builder completes. He checks every box as to whether things were fabricated or assembled by an amateur. Key words to keep in mind.....AMATEUR, FABRICATE, ASSEMBLE. IF you can use a tripacer fuselage and do enough of the other stuff so that 51% of the assembly and fabrication tasks are completed by amateur builders who are building education and recreation then I think your ok....but I would check with the FAA...I mean call them on the phone or make an appointment and go see them. I would ask "If I use a tripacer fuselage and 51% of the assembly and fabrication tasks are completed by an amateur, then will it be certified as an EAB experimental aircraft?

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/kits/media/AmBuiltFabAssyCklistFW.pdf

The first sentence of the Introduction of this FAA document is also foundational.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/kits/media/Am_Blt_Chklist_Job_Aid.pdf

^Yes.

The other thing I'd look at is to compare the Pacer fuselage to the Wagabond fuselage drawings. I suspect the Pacer is a bit heavier. If you extend it some, it gets even heavier.

Make the wings longer, and pretty soon you might find an empty weight nearing 1000 pounds--entering Bushmaster territory. That cuts useful load LSA category. So, unless you are really light....

Charlie Aileron built something like that: an extended Wagabond with more horsepower and longer wings. I can't find links to it right now, but it was a beautiful airplane. I can't recall if it was LSA.

rowdy49 said:

I want to build a STOL Wagabond, but have to keep it a LSA. Can I use a tripacer or colt fuselage if I manufacture all the other parts myself and get it approved. Would also like to get the stall speed down on it if possible. Should wings be made longer and extend fuselage? Open to all suggestions.

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Subject to the comments in post #233, yes you could reduce the stall speed by increasing the wing span. It would require increasing the tail volume (area) to maintain good stability. This can be accomplished by lengthening the fuselage (weight) or increasing the area of the tail surfaces (less additional weight). The added wing span would not need the same sized material as the inboard section of the wing as the loads carried would be less. This would help in keeping the added weight to a minimum.
This: https://www.eaa62.org/technotes/tail.htm is some reading for a start.

Since we know nothing of your background or experience, a good starting place to go for information would be the EAA. https://eaa.org/eaa

Well another update: The supercub clone project has been on hold for several years now. What it started in my life has progressed through that time nicely. A quick recap: I learned to fly in the 70's. I was out of it for a few years and then returned about 15 to 20 years ago. I purchased a Quicksilver "Sprint" ultralight (one of aviation's finest aircraft IMHO). I tried the "putting_it-together-taking -it apart" routine for two times and discovered this to be completely impractical and so that led to the purchase of a $60,000 hangar for an $11,000 airplane. After flying patterns for two years only in the early mornings to avoid any hint of wind I discovered this site and started this project. Fast forward a few years and working on this project led to a connection with the local IA and a job offer for part time work. 6 months later I started keeping a log book and the goal was to get my A&P. After about 5 years the FISDO rep signed me off for taking the three written tests and two weeks ago I took the Airframe, Powerplant, and last the General written tests at a testing center over a period of three days. I averaged 88% on the first two and 87% on the general tests all with self study using the Gleim system. All that's left on this is the oral/practical A&P test and I hope to take that in January 2021. Along the way I switched out the first hangar for three others, acquired a Cessna 182 straight tail and a Piper Apache twin. All effort now is on completing the A&P. The supercub project is down the road a ways at this point with all the other aviation interests. This morning I read through this build log and it is long and boring I guess and I may condense the whole thing for easier reading with less detail. I need to re-import pictures of making the empenage (all of the tail pieces) I think I am still dedicated to doing more on this as my confidence level is much higher with my work experience BUT there is a lot going on and I have flying aircraft so we shall see. No matter what, this has been a wonderful experience that has led to totally unexpected results.

I had been wondering what was going on in your life. You have been busy! Congrats on your progress on an A&P!

I go back and read this thread from time to time. It has a lot of useful info in it.

qsmx440 said:

I may condense the whole thing for easier reading with less detail.

Click to expand...

You have some unique stuff in here, don't throw anything away.

I'm not sure I'd want to pound this on gravel bars but a 21 pound wing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp7JcmwKQcU

Sik

I THINK the wing (ea.) on my Rans S-7S weighs 78 pounds, that number sticks in my head for some reason, maybe it's 87 pounds, something like that. 2700 hours later of lots of off airport and nothing has moved.

The video linked to above, that kid is sharp! He has some background help though, judging from the planes and big hangar shown briefly in one of his clips, he's not without prior aviation experience in some fashion.