ive been up north ski flying for the weekend, so ive been absent, the only thing i have a hard time understanding is if the water (thats the reducing agent) is whats trapped, how come the blisters only develope once they get rained on? remember, the topcoat is almost a year old prior to having been put outside in the weather. i really love the concept of this system, the glue and eco fill are great, and as previously mentioned, i love washing my gun in warm water at the sink, i need to find an answer before i continue though.
p.s. does anyone know of any AWB-2500's for sale?
Ok guys, I have been avoiding responding to this thread because I have no experience with the water-born paint systems. However, I will offer some food for thought simply because I wonder if it has any bearing. I have considerable experience with Aerothane, Randthane, and Superflite paints. I can tell you that under the right conditions (humidity,temp, or what,I don't know), you can't keep a floor wet painting the solvent-based urethanes; they will absorb water as fast as you can put it down. If the paints you folks are talking about do that, how can you not have a lot of water contained in the paint as it attempts to dry? I don't know if it means anything or just continues to add unanswered questions to the problem. I look forward as most of you do to good answers because I would like to try some myself; but not yet. Reid
How do you paint one side of something and not get lots of overspray on it when doing the other side. I saw them do that on the Superflite video and still haven't figured that out.
My apologies for the thread creep, but since this thread now seems to have everyone's attention I have a question.
Has anyone here tried rolling SS top coat? Doug Stewart says it can be done, but he hasn't done it himself and can't really offer much advice. He says some of his customers roll on the ecopoly and get really good results.
I kinda got the impression that it worked best in humid climates, he might have mentioned Missouri; that sounds a lot like the sort of climate we have here in Auckland.
Any comments would be appreciated.
I'm still at a bit of a loss at what causes the bubbling. Mike MCS and Steve P. keep coming up with hypotheses but nothing concrete seems to be floating to the top.
I've found this thread very informative. I'll lap up anything new!
I had to do the interior fabric of a completed Vagabond and decided to roll the SS topcoats.
I used a 4 in sponge roller and it came out great. I used the same mixing instructions as spraying.
There are some pictures under the Steve's Skylight thread at www.Shortwingpipers.org
140 Driver, the reason that I'd say it wasn't the paint's fault, is that if it was, then the whole area that was painted should be affected, not just a few small areas. Like Snowyriver said in the very next post, he knew he was going to have a problem there.... it only takes a little bit of contamination to show sometimes....such as a bare hand touching the surface, too much pressure when tack-ragging (I've seen that a bunch of times!), someone's sleeve brushing the surface, etc..... it can happen.
As far as rolling it on, Dick Starks (of the Kansas City Dawn Patrol fame) used to have info on that on their website, and did an article that appeared in Kitplanes (if I remember correctly). He rolled it on his Taube and was very happy with the finish. I've seen a few samples of it being done, and I'd have sworn that they were sprayed! The only limitations I could see were around irregular areas (gear wells or something like, for example) where spraying should give easier coverage.
The Stewart manual I have gives the procedure for rolling on the finish coat.
Best way I know ho is to paint a leading edge stripe. I have seen people tape a line on top at the leading edge of the wing as well. Hard to see since it is a high wing.How do you paint one side of something and not get lots of overspray on it when doing the other side. I saw them do that on the Superflite video and still haven't figured that out.
As far as the bubbling etc. It appears to me that the atmospheric changes are affecting the top coat from underneath. I wonder if the bottom would do the same thing if it were flipped over. I speculate the finish was put on too thick or not enough time between coats and the moisture from the air and paint is entrapped. Moisture will attach itself to the paint as it leaves the gun and make the problem worse. Kinda thinking out loud here.
Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
Here are some websites with good info on the most common paint defects. It took about 5 minutes of googling to get these references. I think they cover a lot of important information that most guys never think about.
I had a thought the other day that I wanted to share... why does nobody complain about how long it takes them to learn how to be a good welder but if the paint job goes south on the first or second attempt its the end of the world? I know I'm absolutly guity of feeling that way sometimes. And just to let everyone know I still have problems painting from time to time. And it's always because of something I did wrong.
All paint systems are subject to issues of contamination, poor prep, and application error. The information shared on this thread is universal and I'm more than happy to do the best I can through emails and open discussions on threads like this. SC.org is lucky to have such a talented and experienced group of contributing member responding to this thread on painting.
Diagnosing finish defects over the phone and through email is extremely difficult to do. The combined experience of those contributing here has helped to identify the most likely cause of these two different types of finish defects. Don's Cherokee has adhesion problems in localized areas and Steve's fabric aircraft parts have blisters in localized areas. The fact that they are different types of finish defects and are they occurred in localized areas and not the entire surface along with the fact that other customers using paint from the same batch did not have any problems is a real strong case for ruling out a problem with the product. If we concentrate on what factors contribute to blistering and loss of adhesion and the fact that both of these issues developed only after being exposed to 100% humidity and rain I believe we can formulate a theory of what combination of prep and application techniques contributed to the paint issues. Lets start with the blistering on Steves parts first. If everyone can use the links I included above for reference information or find more info on the web in regards to blistering I would like to hear some opinions. Steve and I have been communicating through email and have gone over many of the details in regards to his tools, setup, technique, and work environment so I it seems to me with the information that I have at this time his paint most likely was applied too soon between coats and sprayed on a little heavy - AND/OR - the environment he was painting in cured the surface of each coat to fast trapping moisture.
It's real busy here at Stewart Systems today so I'll add more as I can later.
Last edited by jgerard; 03-22-2011 at 01:36 PM.
When Painting the parts flat and one side at a time you have to think about the angle that your spray fan shoots across the surface. The first side you need to hold your gun slightly below the edge and shoot up at a slight angle so that there is a slight amount of over spray landing on the lower surface as you go around the edge of the part. Always go around the edge before painting the flat surface. The next day when you are ready to paint the other side of the part you are going to already have a few inches of paint past the edge and out into the open bay so now when you hold the gun and paint the second side you need to keep the gun above the surface and angle the fan so that the overspray goes past the edge and does not land on the side that you painted the day before. With waterborne paint you will not have a dry fog line at the overlap intersection around the perimeter. If you get over spray on the first side you'll have to let it cure and buff it out weeks later.
You can roll it but I have no experience doing that either. It's going to be trial and error and you should practice different techniques before going after real airplane parts. We can point you in the right direction and describe what you should be looking for when rolling but you're going to have to practice and experiment.
Last edited by mike mcs repair; 03-23-2011 at 12:31 AM.
me, me, me, me, I wanna be DQ'ed.
We don't want to hijack the thread Dave, we'll deal with you later on the JC thread.
Gosh Dave,, that pic keeps showing up. IS that real,,, or did some ass photoshop it.
I think some ass is hanging out in that photo.
I also agree with Lodi Dave......some ass spends alot of time in photoshop.
Also, some Aeronca guy is a bit deficient in the respect department. Thereby.....DQ'ed unless he can make a sufficient apology!
On a last (?) comment, I just learned from Jason that you shouldn't use plastic to mask off over Stewart paint (any catylized paint). Apparently this is common knowledge but I didn't know. On my wings which I painted and put in a cradle, I draped plastic over them and it got up against the 2 day old paint in some places and stuck (bonded). When I noticed it a month later and removed it there was a cloudy area on the paint that you could see but not feel. I'm guessing that it won't buff out. So...no plastic! Craig
Snowy...you serious.my wings have been covered with 3 mil vis for months...never read that anywhere? fuse is also covered in plastic now...painted it a week or two ago...
I am also leery on plastic,(will imprint/pattern where it touches if left long) or any thing on fresh paint, since most polyurethanes are still curing and getting all their good traits for like a month....(even longer if you shoot in cold area, or reused paint you put in freezer)
The Stewart manual sez do not mask with plastic, in the masking for trim section. It also sez to allow at least 24 hours from painting to putting tape on. I got away with 18 hours, so was able to finish painting my wings on Sunday - - -
My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
Nope. I wasn't kidding. Apparently that info is not in the viseos. I don't have a manual. Jason told me that it is "common knowledge". Wasn't to me. Luckily I just have several small places on the top of one wing where it tried to bond. It looks kind of milky and you can't feel it. I wonder if it will buff out. J5Ron, I hope you luck out and I'd get that plastic off there ASAP.
I don't know how plastic does what it does, but it's not good. I taped a 5 year cured wing to do some touch up on the leading edge, and there were milky marks where the plastic touched the wing. WAS NOT Stewarts, but I learned my plastic lesson. Not cool. Yep, I've heard common knowledge. Wasn't to me at the time. Paper now.
I would love a tips n tricks video from Stewarts. Probably not their responsibility, but I watched the vids a few times and still managed to "paint" myself into corners with questions.
Covering difficult profiles
Alternate fuel tank bay solutions - I've heard cover, paint, cutout and cutout, tape, paint
How to handle top wing pulley
How to double wrap leading edge - two piece your wing - main, then full aileron out to wing tip. Etc.
... And many others I can't remember.
With new paint (especially, but even paint that's not quite so new) there are fumes exiting. This is called "gassing out", and if you cover that with plastic, they can't escape....so they are trapped and react with the surface they're covering. Paper wont do that, as it "breathes" a little. It doesn't matter what brand of paint, but some take a bit longer to completely "gas out" than others. If you really want results, roll them out into the sunshine while still covered with the plastic.....
The manual is online, on the Stewart's website. And the back portion of it is Tips n Tricks - not part of the "official, approved" document, is what I'm guessing - -
My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
Cal is non-certified!
Jason: bad analogy I think... I can cover my gorilla weld(strong but(t) ugly) with paint, but try covering paint with a weld!!!!!!
Just run your weld through the swamp, and it is out of sight and hidden in dirt...
But put your wing tip through the brush to hide the ONLY dust flake on the plane and all you get are more imperfections!
So maybe, the solution is to hire a profesional... er, perfesional... um xpert and not be so critical!
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Hey George, mike's comment was not directed at me... I have two manuals and I use them, with notes in them too. And, I carry them on trips for reference and planning.
Tips n tricks are not in the printed manual that I'm looking at. Online they are mostly hints to oil the inside of your frame. The Stewarts vids are outstanding, I just was able to come up with some Q's not covered and learned the hard way. The resin I suggested it as tips n tricks are the methods would not be stc required just a good idea.
Another suggestion for tips n tricks is a quick primer on staggering knot and rib lacing. I got it now, but reviewed it on YouTube from someone else. God bless YouTube.
I am in the process of painting aluminum spars from a boat. Have always used traditional marine solvent based polyurethanes. Thought I would give the Stewarts Systems products a try due to the water based low VOC benefits and the great durability I have read about. Boy what a huge mistake. I started spraying the product with a turbine driven HVLP system as I don't want to buy all new equipment just to use this product, paint runs like crazy. The runs do not cure and are impossible to knock down smoothly with sandpaper. I am only painting a 13 foot boom and it took me hours of hand sanding just to get the primer coat fair enough to consider top coating. I mixed the paint by volume, don't want to and never have had to buy a digital scale to weigh any paint I have ever worked with in the past. Followed the instructions to the letter as the spar is oval shaped have to turn it during the spraying process and once again runs all over. Once again after hours of hand sanding to try and get the surface fair I am completely gun shy of ever spraying the paint again. I attempted to roll the spar with a high quality foam pad, this time the result was horrible orange peel.
The following are my observations about this paint.
1 It is very finicky and unless you have absolutely perfect conditions and the exact reccomended equipment you will end up with poor results.
2 Very expensive, I have spent almost $300.00 to paint a 13' x 4" boom and I still have to re-do the job.
3 Poor coverage, after multiple coats primer is still showing through top coat.
4 Judging by all the problems I have read about other people trying to apply Stewarts Systems paint, my instincts are that the bugs are not worked out of their water delivered finishes. Will not be using these products again in the future.
Last edited by seaburger; 07-29-2011 at 04:52 PM.
I have seen orange peel on Stits, factory cars, various 2-part solvent paints. The turbine gun is the first mistake I see. That is not following directions to "letter". Most folks I see who have the most trouble with Stewarts paint are the experienced solvent paint dudes. Time to learn a new process and forget old habits. Sorry you had trouble. I would talk to Jason for advice.
Last edited by Bugs66; 07-29-2011 at 06:49 PM.
I'll second what Buggs66 said!!! You DID NOT follow the directions...from what I read, you refuse to follow any of them to the letter.. amazingly enough, having used this system since the 90's, and having taught people how to use it since then... the ones that have problems are the ones that refuse to realize they don't know how to apply it! Too bad you have to come on with your first post and slam a product that you refuse to use properly. It's a great product for people who choose to use it properly.
As I said in the original post with the exception of using my turbine HVLP system and mixing by volume (Described in the instructions) I did follow the directions. I shouldn't have to spend hundreds of dollars to buy a compressor driven system and Delvillbiss gun to shoot a particular paint. Considering I have been able to fine tune the turbine to get excellent results with other products, I thought that I would be able to do the same with the Stewarts, (Case in point the post about using a Wagner sprayer).
I just finished rolling the finish on for what ammounts to the eighth attempt with the highest quality foam roller and a technique that has yielded superior results in the past with other products, once again more orange peel. The problem is the paint has poor flow out and leveling properties as well as horrible covering characteristics, primer is still showing through, (Coverage has nothing to do with technique).
As far as slamming the Stewarts Systems products when you have invested as much money and time as I have for such poor results, I feel ripped off. I maintain my position that this paint and primer is very finicky to apply in all but a perfect and ideal conditions, (How often is the average person going to be able to obtain that).
1/ You need to use a light colored primer to get the top coat coverage.
2/ What was the temperature when you were doing the application? It must be 70 degrees minimum, hotter is better. Then you will get the flow out. Otherwise it will be as you describe.
Well, I bought the $160 gun they reccomend and used my Lowe's air compressor. I have little or no paint exp. I followed the directions to the letter and it might have been 70 degrees in my booth but I doubt it. I had amazing results, not perfect but very nice. Technique has everything to do with coverage. Before I broke my wing into "10 minute paintable" areas I went longer than ten minutes and had some minor peel. Using a watch fixed this. Clean up was easy, customer service was great and I saved money over what I would have spent had I used PPG. I'll use it again. My .02 Craig
If you want to know how well the paint works ask 5 rivers
I can't find the dang .pdf file I was reading about this, but it would appear that solvent (water) entrapment can be prevented by ensuring proper air circulation within the paint booth, to allow drying of the water before the paint starts to skin over....
Sort of a change of subject, but worth the comment. I have been doing minor repairs using Stewarts glue and Ekofill. I always have a test panel handy, and the other day glued one tape with Super Seam Cement, another with Stewarts. The difference in pull strength is noticeable. Stewarts won hands-down. Then I took the pulled Stewarts tape, and ironed it back on an area of dried glue, and pulled it immediately. Double the strength of the plain old dried overnight Stewarts.
The Ekofill seems to sand better than the butyrate silver. I get my pinked edges disappearing rather quickly.
I have not the personality nor the equipment to spray the finish coats, but my buddies are laying in the factory spec gun and compressor, and both do have the personalities to precisely measure materials and time. I will be watching with a Sam Adams in hand, and will report.
'Till then, my patches have all survived with solvent based spot-finish.
but I was thinking just the opposite..... to much airflow/heat will skin a paint.... which is what I use with dopes/normal paint when I have an OH SH1T moment that's about to sag or run... I hit it with just air.....
but like I said, never tried yet.. just thinking out loud....
good jason question!