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Stewart System Paint

Also, Jason said some isopropyl alcohol is shown at 70% alcohol which means it's got a lot of water in it. He said look for some in the 90 ish % range. I looked and was unsucessful. Went back to acetone. Craig

You are right, I 've been there. I finally found some 99%. what I used yesterday to wash before painting is BAFS 909. Googgle it and you'll see it is meant to clean contaminants and is good for waterborn paints
I painted a flap tonight, it looks half decent tonight, just can't wait to see what it will look like in the morning. Should it work good for me I'll let you know what I did. If it doesn't I'll tell you what not to do:)
 
Yes, I tried it and it will stick, but if I were you I would try to figure out why you're having trouble with the Stewarts top coat

Believe me I tried to figure out what went wrong, but so far, I cannot pinpoint what I did to contaminate.
 
Paper cups for the glue not the paint. Always used proper mixing cups for mixing paint.

There has been instances where the fabric surface gets contaminated while sitting in a shop where other maintenance is being performed. If the parts are not covered with a bed sheet or plastic and someone is using any thing like LPS, WD-40, Plexus, Tri-flow, spray wax or polish, Or any aerosol liquids the overspray mist can float all the way across the shop and land on the fabric. Things like kerosene or oil heaters will absolutely contaminate the surface because they leave an invisible soot in the air. We had a customer that had issues painting whenever a turbine airplane was running on the ramp next the their hangar and the fan was on in the paint booth sucking that jet exhaust into the paint booth.

If you get fish eyes on one surface and not another one then the surface is contaminated not the paint. For example if the masking tape and paper look great but the fabric or metal part fish-eyed then the part is contaminated. Question is where did the contamination come from? Was the primer contaminated by the container it was measured or stirred with? Is the paint gun contaminated? Was the surface contaminated by airborne contaminates while it sat around the shop waiting to get painted? Is the air supply for the paint gun oily or have water in it?

I have been told that some brands of Isopropyl alcohol are not very pure and that you really only want to use 91%. I can't remember why 99% is not recommended.

Some basic rules of for painting with any brand of paint are -

Never use any containers that had food in them
Never use silicone anything anywhere near paint - things like spatulas to scrape the can with
Only use new paint cups and stir sticks
Do not use a dirty paint gun with cleaning solvent residue in it.
Do not excessively lube the parts of your gun before spraying with it. And only use the proper spray gun lube.
Make sure your air supply is water and oil free. Drain the tank often. Do not use silicone air lines only use pure rubber hose.
You want to get to .01 micron filtration or better. The basic water trap/regulator units found on most compressors only go to 15-25 microns filtration which is not enough.
Do not use a ton of pipe dope to seal up the connections on your air system. Excess residue can contaminate the air supply.


Finding out what contaminated the surface can be difficult sometimes. Everyone has had that situation where you're looking for something and you just cant find it even though it's right under you nose. Then you ask your buddy to help and in two seconds he finds it for you. Hopefully something from this group discussion will help find the cause of the contamination and better yet keep others from getting contaminated surfaces.

Jason
 
Finding out what contaminated the surface can be difficult sometimes. Everyone has had that situation where you're looking for something and you just cant find it even though it's right under you nose. Then you ask your buddy to help and in two seconds he finds it for you. Hopefully something from this group discussion will help find the cause of the contamination and better yet keep others from getting contaminated surfaces.

Jason


When I covered my experimental cub everything went great except the ailerons. Really bad fisheye, and I ended up cutting fabric off and recovering.

I had stored both ailerons on a surface that was covered with carpet. I think the carpet must have been treated with a silicon treatment to prevent staining, and the silicon transferred to the fabric.

Lesson learned - make sure anything that touches the fabric isn't contaminated!

Clyde
 
It is funny about the air lines. I installed the Devilbis Dry air filters and the unit at the compressor was and is fine. The unit in the booth beyond the piping system passes through the shop which I kept cold and into the booth. Within a week after install I noticed the tell tale eye showed the filter as wet and needs replacemnt. It was the lines condensing in the cold shop on the way to the booth was my thought.
I use the graduated paint mixing cups for the final process and only the wax dixies on the ecofill. I do have the Taylorcraft in the shop and it is not covered well except with a coat of dust. Will the ecoclean solve the cleaning issues of the fabric to remove any oils from exposed to open shop?
John
John
 
It is funny about the air lines. I installed the Devilbis Dry air filters and the unit at the compressor was and is fine. The unit in the booth beyond the piping system passes through the shop which I kept cold and into the booth. Within a week after install I noticed the tell tale eye showed the filter as wet and needs replacemnt. It was the lines condensing in the cold shop on the way to the booth was my thought.
I use the graduated paint mixing cups for the final process and only the wax dixies on the ecofill. I do have the Taylorcraft in the shop and it is not covered well except with a coat of dust. Will the ecoclean solve the cleaning issues of the fabric to remove any oils from exposed to open shop?
John
John

John,

That is a good question... I have a 170 ragwing that has been hanging in the shop for the last several weeks covered up to ecofill... would like to know if the cleaning solution with alcohol rub down will take away any contaminates that may be now on the surface before painting it... The other wing came out nice, would hate to screw up this one...

Brian.
 
EkoClean is a pretty effective emulsifying detergent and if you were to wash the fabric with it like you wash a car it should lift most contaminates. Heavy oils, wax, and grease may be more of an issue. If you decide to scrub down a fabric surface and hose it off I would use a 5:1 ratio of water and EkoClean and lightly scrub with one of our polyester quilted towels we sell. You can scrub hard with it and it won't leave lint behind and doesn't fall apart when wet. The surface will need to dry 24-48 hours depending on your humidity before painting. Waterborne paints and damp surfaces don't mix, you'll get fish-eyes. EkoClean will not effect the paint job. I have poured it full strength to the paint in the gun and sprayed it out to see if there would be defects and no issues at all. I have soaked the fabric with it and scrubbed to the point of it being soapy bubbly and then brushed the EkoFill into the weave with no issues. I would not hesitate to wash a fabric part like a car and scrub it down good then hose it off and let dry before continuing. The safest thing to do if it's been sitting and you suspect the possibility of contamination is to wash it, let dry, then spray a coat of the EkoPrime primer/sealer on it before shooting the top coat. I am curious as to how well the 909 cleaner works and will go find some to try.


Im sure for those that have been around fabric airplanes long enough you have seen where solvent based dope or other systems had interlayer adhesion issues down the road where the color comes off and the silver is still there. That is another example of either waiting too long between coats or contamination between coats. Solvent based paints hide contamination much better but they still suffer the effects.

Polyester quilted lab grade lint free towels
photo.JPG

The best thing to do is keep all fabric parts covered and protected when not working on them and try to avoid all sources of contamination while in the covering process. A trip to Walmart for a bunch of cheap queen sized top sheets is to cover up your parts with is money well spent. If you want to you can then put painters plastic over the bed sheets.

Regarding towels and rags used for wiping or sheets for covering up parts... Do not use anything that has been through your washer and dryer. Fabric softener residue which is always in the dryer will contaminate a paint job. If you wash anything for use on fabric parts let it air dry.


Jason
 

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The safest thing to do if it's been sitting and you suspect the possibility of contamination is to wash it, let dry, then spray a coat of the EkoPrime primer/sealer on it before shooting the top coat.

Jason

The EkoPrime is flexible enough to go on the fabric?????

Would this be a good solution to turn the EkoFill surface white before applying topcoats? People have spoken about the white topcoat not covering very well and I think you have recommended only applying colours over white.

Thanks,
Andrew.
 
Oh yeah EkoPrime is wicked flexible. It's used all the time on re-paints over other fabric systems. And we recommend it as a white base over the charcoal grey EkoFill before painting bright colors like Yellow which is translucent. Regarding white not covering... It's mostly just application because we sell more white than any other color and only about 5% of the customers that have used some version of white say they had trouble getting coverage. 99% of painting is prep and application. We have made big improvements in the products over the years to simplify the application. I am still trying to figure out how to get the paint to jump out of the can and paint it's self but I think that may take forever ;-)

There is nothing wrong with throwing a quick light coat of white EkoPrime over the grey before painting other that you loose the contrast and it's like driving in a snow storm trying to see where you're going shooting white paint over white primer.

I make it easy and make up some yellow primer when shooting yellow paint so I have an even better base and when painting areas like the hinge pockets on flaps and ailerons it's much easier to get full color in those tight areas. I can custom tint primer to all the same colors as the paint.

The new EkoPoly Premium has been extremely successful and easier to apply with more durability, longer pot life, and less finicky about application technique or equipment. Playing around with it I have found I can do 1 coat paint jobs but It's best if you do a tack fog coat/wet coat application like shown in our YouTube videos.

I had a good conversation with Pierre from Vortex Aviation last night and it sounds like he was able to clean the contamination from his parts and seal them up with the EkoPrime. After doing that the paint went on just fine. I am going to find some of the BASF 909 cleaner to play with.

We work hard to find solutions and help as much as we can with every single customer.

Jason
 
Quote Jason: "I am still trying to figure out how to get the paint to jump out of the can and paint it's self but I think that may take forever ;-)"

Under the category of silly ideas: Why not a scuba tank based rental system that has the dry uncontaminated air, built in automatic mixing system, temp and humidity indicators, correct and pre serviced gun etc. ? Most folks doing this really don't want to paint full time, buy a special compressor, hose, ?, gun, setup just for one aircraft paint job but hiring it done requires moving the aircraft so they slog on. At the end of painting there would be simple directions to clean the gun or open it up and drop it in a 5 gallon bucket of cleaner for the return and to get the damage deposit back. It would leave only the surface contamination and painting skill to deal with. At the cost of time and expense, not to mention possibly ruining the surface such that it has to be sanded or the paint fails later it would be neat to dumb down the process a bit like your "wish" above. surely it would be worth a few extra hundred dollars in shipping and rental fees?

Now back to reality...
 
has any body used Stewarts to repair polyfiber
do I use MEK to remove polyfiber back to the cloth and then start back with Stewards
or can I just sand the poly fiber a little and then apply Stewards
Need to put a patch on belly of my PA11, there is oil present.
 
If it is a minor repair, you can do anything you want. I routinely use the Stewarts glue and Ekofill to patch dope or Poly Fiber. If it is a major repair, you probably cannot mix systems, unless Stewarts has obtained approval to do so.

We have Poly Fiber tapes coming loose - I just glue a tape on top of the offending seam, then finish with Ekofill and dope.

On the colors - Randolph and Stits, in what seems to be an effort to confuse us, have changed the stock colors. Stewarts seems to match the original colors better thanit matches ese new colors. Juneau white never had any yellow in it until very recently - it was insignia white with a touch of black.

all opinion.
 
You are right, I 've been there. I finally found some 99%. what I used yesterday to wash before painting is BAFS 909. Googgle it and you'll see it is meant to clean contaminants and is good for waterborn paints
I painted a flap tonight, it looks half decent tonight, just can't wait to see what it will look like in the morning. Should it work good for me I'll let you know what I did. If it doesn't I'll tell you what not to do:)


I did my wings this week end. I sprayed on Saturday. temp 30C, I got either runs or no shine at all. That pissed me off quite good. This morning, temp was around 18, 20C, I did cool down too8) I sanded with 320, wahsed it with 99% alcool. reduced the paint only up to 25 sec. with the viscosity cup. Sprayed one Xcoat tacky, then 15 minutes later, one wet X coat. It didn't look that shiny for the first hour, but it finally got there. It is beautifull. Tomorrow I am doing the fuselage. I just hope it will get to be as good. Thanks to Jason's advices. But I still keep thinking that this thing is quite picky. It is really sensitive to contamination, temperature, humidity, equipment, the painter, a bird flying bay, you name it.
I thought I'd let you know, I can tell when **** happens, but it is also worth mentionning when things go well.;-)
Pierre
 
"We have Poly Fiber tapes coming loose - I just glue a tape on top of the offending seam, then finish with Ekofill and dope."

Thats the way I went Stewarts glue and Ekofill and then Poly Fiber paint, on my patches, seem to be sticking, couple of years will tell.
First time handling Stewarts it feels like a stuff we use on roofs called Rapid Roof a real rubbery latex product.
 
Did my experimental with Stewarts, and had minimal issues. Plane is now assembled yet has not been outdoors...around the same time frame...some friends did there planes. Two were J 5's and one was a working PA18...by that I mean flying all winter...trapping and now guiding....it looks good still...after about three years. The two J 5's are recreational and the tops of the wings look trerible. Water blisters, and bubbling in many places...and not just a little.

The fabric work on all planes are about the same age...4 years... All in the same weather conditions...70's on summer, and down to -50 in winter...

my exp which has been inside has not bubbling or issues to date...
 
Just read all this again. A lot of info here.

First, am I to understand that there exists an older STC using Stewarts glue and EkoFill, but allowing Butyrate? If so, did anybody capture the manual?

Second, this stuff apparently does have a shelf life. We have two quarts of glue and almost a gallon of the gray stuff, and it is showing signs of recalcitrance! Good thing is, even when the glue starts to separate it is still stronger than the nitrate cement.

So, since Stewarts only sells in relatively large quantities, if one wanted to do repair work to an experimental aircraft, is there a similar water- based glue out there available in pint- size?

Tomorrow I shall try to invent a stirrer to get the solids mixed up in the older EkoFill.

As I said over a year ago, I have not the patience nor the personality to do the top coat. But I like the initial process.
 
I spayed my second 170 rag wing a few weeks ago..... Checked it today and it still looks good.... One thing I have to say, the new Eco Poly Premium is hands down better than the old Eco Poly... Coverage, pot life, and overall spay patterns are excellent... Took me a little while to get used to the fog coat wet coat style of spraying, but it works great with this stuff...

Brian...
 
Just read all this again. A lot of info here.

First, am I to understand that there exists an older STC using Stewarts glue and EkoFill, but allowing Butyrate? If so, did anybody capture the manual?

Second, this stuff apparently does have a shelf life. We have two quarts of glue and almost a gallon of the gray stuff, and it is showing signs of recalcitrance! Good thing is, even when the glue starts to separate it is still stronger than the nitrate cement.

So, since Stewarts only sells in relatively large quantities, if one wanted to do repair work to an experimental aircraft, is there a similar water- based glue out there available in pint- size?

Tomorrow I shall try to invent a stirrer to get the solids mixed up in the older EkoFill.

As I said over a year ago, I have not the patience nor the personality to do the top coat. But I like the initial process.

Bob,

What I think you are referring to is this:
The Stewart Brothers bought AFS (Aircraft Finishing Systems). AFS bought the remnants of the Blue River company. Somewhere I have the old Blue River manual. The Blue River manual provides for two topcoat options; Their Flexigloss, the stuff that cracked and in some cases fell off or Butyrate dope. The manual doesn't prohibit the use of Imron etc. but recommends against it.

Now, I can't remember exactly, but the AFS system in-so-far as approval went was the Blue River system. And the Blue River approval was an appendix to the Ceconite STC. This was back before the Polyfiber company bought Ceconite, so Ceconite were happy for it to be this way because they could sell more cloth. I think that when Polyfiber bought Ceconite, they revoked this appendix thing which was getting to be a bit of a long bow anyway as AFS had changed so much of the product. At one point I was in contact with AFS who confirmed to me that the ceconite STC was the correct STC to quote when using their products. I believe it was some time after that that Ceconite revoked the appendix. I know for a fact, but I don't have documentary evidence, that AFS were selling their product without an STC.

It was about this point that the Stewarts got involved as they were a major distributor and had invested a lot of time in the system and it looked like the wheels were falling off at AFS. They obtained their own STC as its generally been all good and getting better since then. One of the Stewart brothers told me that the people who caused the topcoat to be included with the approvals system was Polyfiber, and he had words to the effect that Polyfiber had stirred it all up. I think this just caused a whole lot more cost and time for the Stewarts to get their STC.

Confused?

A friend of mine has a New Zealand CAA approval to use Butyrate over Stewart Systems on certain aircraft. So, it's doable.


Cheers,
Andrew.
 
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.... the people who caused the topcoat to be included with the approvals system was Polyfiber, and he had words to the effect that Polyfiber had stirred it all up. ...
Cheers,
Andrew.

that also was my understanding, (and with no knowledge of stewarts or so....) they(stitts) just complicated our lives to try to sell more of their stitts stuff and such...
 
Bob, I'll happily sell you a 4,8,16 oz bottle of glue all ya got to do is ask :) The primers and paints do have a 1 year shelf life and we try very hard to only sell customers enough to do the job they are working on. I can sell you half pints or pints of EkoFill and EkoPrime if you like. Min order on paint is 1 pint. Any smaller and it's hard to control color matching. We also recommend not buying any paint until you are ready to paint the entire aircraft.

Regarding shelf life all products are warrantied 1 year unopened. It's just the way things are and has to do with chemistry not marketing. I would much rather have to send a customer an extra 16 oz to finish a job than leave them with half a gallon of unused product. With no heavy volatile solvents you don't get the same 2-3 year shelf life or the seemingly unlimited shelf life like dope. When solids fall out of solution it's much harder to get them to stir back in. The catalyst for the paint actually has a shorter shelf life than the paint it's self. I am always looking at ways to improve shelf life. If you have 1 1/2 - 2 year old EkoFill or EkoPrime it's not going to be any good. Don't buy a quart or gallon instead buy a pint at a time if all you do is small repairs with it. The glue however will last years unless it's frozen. I have used 6 year old glue that looked the same as brand new glue. Same for the EkoClean and EkoEtch.

FYI the current Stewart Systems product line has nothing in common with the old blue river process. The STC paper trail of blue river to Aircraft finishing systems was only a paper trail, The chemistry of the primers and paints didn't follow. The current chemistry is nothing like Blue river or the early Aircraft finishing system products. And the Stewart Systems STC is a stand alone STC based on new chemistry and it's the only FAR part 23 tested and certified covering system. It's not a modification of the old BR paperwork which was piggybacked onto the Ceconite STC as the 7600 process. SS has nothing in common with BR other than the concept of water born coatings.

The new EkoPoly Premium paint has really made a huge improvement in ease of application and almost completely eliminated the problems people had shooting the earlier version. (nothing is fool proof) It's 10 times more forgiving and user friendly and it shoots more like most polyurethane paints and the performance of the coating has far exceeded our expectations. The more we use it and the more feed back we get from customers the more versatile we are finding it to be.

Osmotic blistering comes from contaminates underneath or between layers of the coating affecting adhesion and acting like a "sponge" which attracts water molecules causing a hydraulic blistering of the paint. The causes of contamination are typically prep or application related. If you google osmotic blisters you'll get a ton of info on what can cause them. Vigorous testing with the latest formulas shows no signs of blistering under extreme conditions.


Jason
 
Hi Jason, we had a problem with our Stewart Systems paint job. Have painted all the coats on all surfaces and are really pleased with the results. We are just in the process of reassembling the aircraft for flight, and managed to spill some brake fluid out of the master cylinder onto the belly fabric, naturally on the inside. This caused an effect similar to the application of paint stripper on the top coat. We also managed to spill some contact adhesive on the inside of the Belly with a similar result.
Can you advise what treatment we should use in both cases before we repair the paint.
 
Hi Jason, we had a problem with our Stewart Systems paint job. Have painted all the coats on all surfaces and are really pleased with the results. We are just in the process of reassembling the aircraft for flight, and managed to spill some brake fluid out of the master cylinder onto the belly fabric, naturally on the inside. This caused an effect similar to the application of paint stripper on the top coat. We also managed to spill some contact adhesive on the inside of the Belly with a similar result.
Can you advise what treatment we should use in both cases before we repair the paint.

You may want to send an e mail Stewarts direct as Jason is no longer with them.
 
My 2220 has Stewart system 20+ years looks like new just a few cracks I think it's acrylic enamel finish with flex additive so it must be a modified finish
 
I just heard from another that Stewart systems is in the process of moving to Ohio from Washington State this week. That makes me wonder if they've been acquired or sold.

i used Stewart's on my aircraft also. I'll wait to see if anyone else has repair advice or you.
 
I just heard from another that Stewart systems is in the process of moving to Ohio from Washington State this week. That makes me wonder if they've been acquired or sold.

i used Stewart's on my aircraft also. I'll wait to see if anyone else has repair advice or you.

Cal,

Do you know where in Ohio?
 
I'd bet the Stewart's system folks will come up with the same fix as the fuel tank/bay fix. Paint the interior belly with top coat...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Any of you Stewart’s experts have this color variation between fabric and metal?...all from the same can, all parts were primed with white Ekoprime. It still looks fine, just wondering. I don’t want each round of parts I paint to come out different.
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