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Oil pressure needle has the shakes

Webfoot

FRIEND
Fairbanks, AK
I have the stock oil temp/pressure guage in my 150 cub and the pressure needle has a rapid flicker in cruise about 2 or 3 lbs above and below 80 psi. I swear I haven't run any coffee through there. This may have been discussed before, but I haven't been able to find it with the search engine. Any suggestions?

Webfoot
 
It could have air in the line and needs to be bled. Loosen the fitting on the back of the gage to let some oil run through. This can be done with the engine running or take out the top spark plugs and spin it with the starter. Don't forget a rag and to tighten the fitting when done.
 
Did it just start doing this or have you done some work on the engine lately?

I have found fittings that don't have the orfice mounted on the engine.

Let us know what you find
 
I had the same problem and I did two things and I don't know which fixed it. I found I didn't have the tiny orifice in the line, so I put one in and bled the line, one of those things fixed the problem. Mine only seemed to be a problem after a hot start, then it would shake to beat the band.......
 
I noticed this after the motor had sat for five months while I did some fabric work. I have tried bleeding the line at the instrument and it was slightly better. Maybe I need to bleed some more. It is most noticable when engine is hot and less when first started and hasn't warmed up yet.

Webfoot
 
erratic Oil pressure indicating needle

I would like to chime in here. Hopefully, this will help someone. I can finally offer some advice back on a topic that I am fairly well versed in. I was a product manager for the world's largest pressure gauge manufacturer for 8+ years an did a fair amount of gauge root cause failure analysis and application advice and troubleshooting. All the suggestions in the thread are good ones. Please allow me to add a few more details in the hopes that some others with similar, but different problems, will be served.

A pressure gauge is a simple device. The pressure acts on a "bourdon tube" It is very similar to a New Years Eve Party Noise maker. You know, the thing we all blow on, it unravels and at the end, makes a noise! Well, the pressure gauge and bourdon tube do the same thing, only it moves just a slight distance. Otherwise known as bourdon tube tip travel. This small movement is translated by a simple linkage that acts on a segment gear. The segment gear moves due to the bourdon tube tip travel and meshes with a small pinion gear that is attached to the gauge pointer, or needle.

There are three main gauge "killers". They are Heat, Mechanical vibration and pressure pulsation. Our gauge installations don't have enough heat to damage the gauge, but, they do have plenty of mechanical vibration and I am sure, to some extent, pressure pulsation.

The most widely accepted industry method for controlling mechanical vibration is to liquid fill the gauge with a case fill fluid. This envelopes the entire interior working parts of the gauge in a lubricating and vibration damping fluid, typically glycerin or silicone. I have yet to see an aircraft mechanical oil pressure gauge that is case filled, so, my first thought is that any gauge with any fair amount of hours on it has it has excessive wear on the linkage and gear teeth, allowing the indicating needle to just sit there and act erratically. So, in many cases, especially with a high time gauge, it is not the oil pressure acting erratically and you are not experiencing engine issues. You can take the gauge apart and carefully inspect the linkage and gear teeth for wear, damage or looseness. If you find any, this may very well be the culprit of the needle vibrations/fluctuations.

Now, let's address the possibility that the gauge mechanics are OK and there is a little oil pressure fluctuation being picked up by the gauge. The most widely accepted industry standard for simply and cost effectively controlling pressure pulsation is by adding a "restrictor" to the gauge pressure entrance and throttling down the pressure to the gauge. A restrictor is a plug with a very, very small hole in it. It's kinda like making a big group of folks all go threw a revolving door one at a time. This is a very effective method for smoothing out pressure pulsations and, as already mentioned in this string. However, just to be clear, I believe most of the restrictors that we all "should have" in our oil line system somewhere (hopefully close to the block) serve a much more important benefit.....they are there in case there is an oil line or bourdon tube failure or rupture, which is entirely possible. This is disastrous in flight as you all know. Oil will be literally pumped out of the engine. With a restrictor in place, the oil loss is slowed way down, giving us crucial extra seconds or minutes of engine run time before catastrophic engine failure. So....restrictors are good and a must have. Please make sure your mechanic verifies you have one at your next shop visit or annual.

I hope this has been helpful. On a side note, if your gauge is found to be tired by looking at the internals and you verify you have a restricitor, you can add life to the gauge and calm down the needle fluctuations due to mechanical vibrations by adding some very high viscosity silicone grease to the gauge movement and gear teeth (sparingly). Try McMaster-Carr for it.

Good luck and please feel free to ask for help on any pressure gauge questions, I will be glad to help! Safe Flying!!
 
Re: erratic Oil pressure indicating needle

peyelot said:
I would like to chime in here. Hopefully, this will help someone. I can finally offer some advice back on a topic that I am fairly well versed in. ....

thanks for the info!
 
Might be carbon on your oil pressure bypass. Easy to pull and clean.
 
Update: I tried bleeding the air out a bunch of times, with no improvement. I finally was able to borrow a used guage and checked it by running the engine on the ground. Seemed no vibration, but I was only getting a 2 PSI swing at cruise RPM, so not absolutely sure with the ground check. At this point, and reading the other posts its likely that the problem is the guage. I am looking at finding another guage or figuring out a good time to take it out and send it in to be overhauled. But I don't want to miss ski flying, like I did last year. Thanks to all for their posts.

Webfoot
 
When I sent mine in for repair, it only took about a week, plus a day or so for shipping time. They can rush it if you need.. John Wolf Company
 
Has anybody had any recent dealings with John Wolf Co? I'm looking at overhaul(including new silkscreens) on all my instruments. I looked at their website but it is very brief in the aircraft section. Is John Wolf FAA certified? Will they remark operating ranges? Will they fix dials too? In using the search function, I see that most guys send them their oil pressure/temperature gauges. Do they specialize in these gauges or maybe this gauge is what breaks most of the time? I'm looking to go back to original (cream faced on all my gauges). Any info would be great. Thanks.
 
I sent my oil pressure/temp gauge to John Wolf Co. last winter and was please with the work. It took a bit longer than they estimated, but the price was as quoted. Symptoms were pretty much what Webfoot described in the original post. From the looks of their web site,...they can probably do about anything you want.

Jim
 
Update on original post. I found a used guage and sent it in to John Wolf for an overhaul this summer, as I didn't want down flying time. Got it back it about two weeks. Since I was on floats, I hooked up the overhauled guage to pressure line and slid my old guage over to another spot on the panel, and went flying. The overhauled guage had no shakes and was within a couple pounds pressure of old guage, so as I expected, was a guage problem, not the engine. Since I was on floats, I didn't want to swap out the guage sitting on the water, so I hooked the old guage back up in its original spot. Guess what? Old guage works fine now, with no shakes???? Have flown about 30 hours or more since and no problems. Wonder if dampening grease got moved around when I moved it? Anyway, probably will swap out at next annual.
Webfoot
 
I would like to chime in here. Hopefully, this will help someone. I can finally offer some advice back on a topic that I am fairly well versed in. I was a product manager for the world's largest pressure gauge manufacturer for 8+ years an did a fair amount of gauge root cause failure analysis and application advice and troubleshooting. All the suggestions in the thread are good ones. Please allow me to add a few more details in the hopes that some others with similar, but different problems, will be served.

A pressure gauge is a simple device. The pressure acts on a "bourdon tube" It is very similar to a New Years Eve Party Noise maker. You know, the thing we all blow on, it unravels and at the end, makes a noise! Well, the pressure gauge and bourdon tube do the same thing, only it moves just a slight distance. Otherwise known as bourdon tube tip travel. This small movement is translated by a simple linkage that acts on a segment gear. The segment gear moves due to the bourdon tube tip travel and meshes with a small pinion gear that is attached to the gauge pointer, or needle.

There are three main gauge "killers". They are Heat, Mechanical vibration and pressure pulsation. Our gauge installations don't have enough heat to damage the gauge, but, they do have plenty of mechanical vibration and I am sure, to some extent, pressure pulsation.

The most widely accepted industry method for controlling mechanical vibration is to liquid fill the gauge with a case fill fluid. This envelopes the entire interior working parts of the gauge in a lubricating and vibration damping fluid, typically glycerin or silicone. I have yet to see an aircraft mechanical oil pressure gauge that is case filled, so, my first thought is that any gauge with any fair amount of hours on it has it has excessive wear on the linkage and gear teeth, allowing the indicating needle to just sit there and act erratically. So, in many cases, especially with a high time gauge, it is not the oil pressure acting erratically and you are not experiencing engine issues. You can take the gauge apart and carefully inspect the linkage and gear teeth for wear, damage or looseness. If you find any, this may very well be the culprit of the needle vibrations/fluctuations.

Now, let's address the possibility that the gauge mechanics are OK and there is a little oil pressure fluctuation being picked up by the gauge. The most widely accepted industry standard for simply and cost effectively controlling pressure pulsation is by adding a "restrictor" to the gauge pressure entrance and throttling down the pressure to the gauge. A restrictor is a plug with a very, very small hole in it. It's kinda like making a big group of folks all go threw a revolving door one at a time. This is a very effective method for smoothing out pressure pulsations and, as already mentioned in this string. However, just to be clear, I believe most of the restrictors that we all "should have" in our oil line system somewhere (hopefully close to the block) serve a much more important benefit.....they are there in case there is an oil line or bourdon tube failure or rupture, which is entirely possible. This is disastrous in flight as you all know. Oil will be literally pumped out of the engine. With a restrictor in place, the oil loss is slowed way down, giving us crucial extra seconds or minutes of engine run time before catastrophic engine failure. So....restrictors are good and a must have. Please make sure your mechanic verifies you have one at your next shop visit or annual.

I hope this has been helpful. On a side note, if your gauge is found to be tired by looking at the internals and you verify you have a restricitor, you can add life to the gauge and calm down the needle fluctuations due to mechanical vibrations by adding some very high viscosity silicone grease to the gauge movement and gear teeth (sparingly). Try McMaster-Carr for it.

Good luck and please feel free to ask for help on any pressure gauge questions, I will be glad to help! Safe Flying!!



As a result of pressure fluctuation, my shaky oil pressure gauge finally gave up, needle stuck at 80 psi. for good.
Being the curious tinkerer that i am, decided to pull it apart and see whats going on

Heres a shot of the gear that drives the needle, constant fluctuation wore down the teeth in the range of needle movement causing the needle to stick and ruining the instrument. Needle movement was minimal at first but as it got worse it got worse, now apparent why.

What Peyelot describes above as the "bourdon tube" is the round brass chamber (covered with fingerprints) surrounding the guts of the
instrument

Just FYI


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I need to pull mine out and have it repaired. It bounces and has almost 13,000 hours on it.

Steve, 13,000 hrs of dedicated service, it deserves to be put out to pasture.

not sure what it costs for repair but looking at that little coiled up spring - you couldn't pay me enough to mess with it.
bought one at spruce AN5771-2, direct replacment also operating range decal kit 10-03905. Total $260
If you want to get fancy, remove the glass (split ring) place decals directly on dial.
 
Re; the restriction orfice at the engine. Is anyone willing to advise the appropriate size or diameter of this restriction.
 
Re; the restriction orfice at the engine. Is anyone willing to advise the appropriate size or diameter of this restriction.
From memory, may not be accurate .040". It is either an AD or bulletin to install these on all Lycomings. You can make your own by brazing, soldering or otherwise plugging the hole in the fitting which screws into the engine case, then drilling hole.
 
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