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Spot Landings

Chuck E. said:
However most of my off airport flying was in DC3's on wheel / skis and Twin Otters which incidentally are more demanding than a Cub. In the eight years I flew the DC3 in the far north we would have been lucky to have used a paved runway 25% of the time, the rest of our operations were off airport.

Obviously from the responses I am getting some of you have the impression I have no understanding of how to operate airplanes off airports or at the edge of their performance envelope.

Once again I apologize for giving my opinion on how to fly and shall try and refrain from doing so here in the future.

Please do not take offence at the way things get written, it is not to insult, but to express a difference of opinion.

As far as twin otter/DC-3 being more demanding- in some ways yes, in others maybe no.

Lots going on in a twin, and you are restricted to specific airspeeds. No cheating and going below blue line on thoes, so you have a certian amount of energy to burn off once on the ground :crazyeyes: That takes Ba.... er GUTS! (I watched a twin otter work loads into 400' for a week once, WOW!)

A cub, on final and touchdown/stop can be just as demanding, if the pilot asks the cub to do something that it probably should not...

Flying a cub to book performance is fairly common. Flying it continually to strips shorter than performance tends to get all but the very best in trouble.

Again, Please do not be insulted because our opinions differ. Trust me, I have no clue how to get a twin otter in and out of 400', the cub is enough for me to do that.
 
I would like to offer another opinion. Your body will lie to you. Yes it is very important to learn to feel what is happening with the wing but it is also important to use all the tools available. Vertigo is your body lying to you. The downwind turn is your body and eyes lying to you. Glassy water is your eyes lying to you. Yes it is important to "feel" but do not be deceived, crosscheck, use all the tools you have. So, I agree with Chuck, crosscheck. You can fly by the seat of your pants, but remember your seat can, and will, lie to you. Think you can always tell how many G's you are pulling? I believe that you can't tell day to day with any accuracy at all.

Don't ever forget......Your body will lie to you

Crosscheck, back yourself up, get a second opinion, use all the tools you have. It is not a show of immaturity or lack of skill; au contraire, the smart, seasoned pilot knows his body can and will deceive.


Bill
 
Good morning again, another day another chance to re-evaluate what we thought yesterday.

I must be getting old and crotchety because yesterday I took offense where none was warranted......

.....so we will forget my saying I would not comment on how to fly any more here.....

The problem with the internet is the lack of one on one interaction with all the clues that we use to determine the real message someone is delivering.

Now back to flying Cubs and all their little brethren.

The reason I am building a Cub is that is what I started my flying career on and now that I have retired after over fifty years as a commercial pilot I want to go back in time while I still have some time left.

Bill Rusk said what I was trying to say and did not take the time to clearly explain myself.

I have some parts for the interior of my Cub to bond this morning as I prefer bonding to flush riveting as it gives me a nicer finished look.

For some years I have been playing around with writing a book of short stories about my flying career and I will link the one about my first job here so you people can see where I started.

I have not really finished these stories and they are not edited so ignore any bad grammar and such.

It may not be the most interesting reading you will do but it is about Cubs.
:D


The Tobacco Fields - By Chuck Ellsworth


For generations the farmers of southern Ontario have planted cared for harvested and cured tobacco in a small area on the northern shores of lake Erie. Our part in this very lucrative cash crop was aerial application of fertilizers and pesticides better known as crop dusting.

At the end of the twentieth century this form of farming is slowly dying due to the ever-increasing movement of the anti-smoking segment of society. Although few would argue the health risks of smoking it is interesting that our government actively supports both sides of this social problem. Several times in the past ten or so years I have rented a car and driven back to the tobacco farming area of Southern Ontario, where over forty years ago I was part of that unique group of pilots who earned their living flying the crop dusting planes.

The narrow old highways are still there, but like the tobacco farms they are slowly fading into history as newer and more modern freeways are built. The easiest way of finding tobacco country is to drive highway 3, during the nineteen forties and early fifties this winding narrow road was the main route from Windsor through the heart of tobacco country and on to the Niagara district. Soon after leaving the modern multi lane 401 to highway 3 you will begin to realize that although it was only a short drive you have drifted back a long way in time. Driving through the small villages and towns very little has changed and life seems to be as it was in the boom days of tobacco farming, when transients came from all over the continent for the harvest. They came by the hundreds to towns like Aylmer, Tillsonberg, Deli and Simcoe, these towns that were synonymous with tobacco have changed so little it is like going back in time.

Several of the airfields we flew our Cubs, Super Cubs and Stearmans out of in the fifties and early sixties are still there. Just outside of Simcoe highway 3 runs right past the airport and even before turning into the driveway to the field I can see that after all these years nothing seems to have changed. I could be in a time warp and can imagine a Stearman or Cub landing and one of my old flying friends getting out of his airplane after another morning killing tobacco horn worms, and saying come on Chuck lets walk down to the restaurant and have breakfast. The tobacco hornworm was a perennial pest and our most important and profitable source of income. Most of my old companion's names have faded from memory as the years have passed and we went our different ways but some of them are easy to recall.

Like Lorne Beacroft a really great cropduster and Stearman pilot. Lorne and I shared many exciting adventures in our airplanes working together from the row crop farms in Southern Ontario to conifer release spraying all over Northern Ontario for the big pulp and paper companies. Little did we know then that many years later I would pick up a newspaper thousands of miles away and read about Lorne being Canadas first successful heart transplant. I wonder where he is today and what he is doing?

There are others, Tom Martindale whom I talked to just last year after over forty years, now retired having flown a long career with Trans Canada Airlines, now named Air Canada. Then there was Howard Zimmerman who went on to run his own helicopter company and still in the aerial applicating business last I heard of him. And who could forget Bud Boughner another character that just disappeared probably still out there somewhere flying for someone.

I have been back to St. Thomas, another tobacco farming town on highway 3 twice in the last several years to pick up airplanes to move for people in my ferry business. The airport has changed very little over the years. The hanger where I first learned to fly cropdusters is still there with the same smell of chemicals that no Ag. Pilot can ever forget. It is now the home of Hicks and Lawrence who were in the business in the fifties and still at it, only the airplanes have changed.

My first flying job started in that hangar, right from a brand new commercial license to the greatest flying job that any pilot could ever want. There were twenty-three of us who started the crop dusting course early that spring, in the end only three were hired and I was fortunate to have been one of them.

With the grand total of 252 hours in my log book I started my training with an old duster pilot named George Walker. Right from the start he let me know that I was either going to fly this damned thing right on its limits and be absolutely perfect in flying crop spraying patterns or the training wouldn't last long. It was fantastic not only to learn how to really fly unusual attitudes but do it right at ground level.

To become a good crop duster pilot required that you accurately fly the airplane to evenly apply the chemicals over the field being treated. We really had to be careful with our flying when applying fertilizers in early spring as any error was there for all to see as the crop started growing. This was achieved by starting on one side of the field maintaining a constant height, airspeed and track over the crop. Just prior to reaching the end of your run full power was applied, and at the last moment the spray booms were shut off and at the same time a forty-five degree climb was initiated. As soon as you were clear of obstructions a turn right or left was made using forty five to sixty degrees of bank. After approximately three seconds a very quick turn in the opposite direction was entered until a complete one hundred and eighty degree change of direction had been completed. If done properly you were now lined up exactly forty-five feet right or left of the track you had just flown down the field.

From that point a forty-five degree dive was entered and with the use of power recovery to level flight was made at the exact height above the crop and the exact airspeed required for the next run down the field in the opposite direction to your last pass. Speed was maintained from that point by reducing power.

To finish the course and be one of the three finally hired was really hard to believe. To be paid to do this was beyond belief. When the season began we were each assigned an airplane, a crash helmet, a tent and sleeping bag and sent off to set up what was to be our summer home on some farmers field. Mine was near Langdon just a few miles from lake Erie.

Last year I tried without success to find the field where my Cub and I spent a lot of that first summer. Time and change linked with my memory of its location being from flying into it rather than driving to it worked against me and I was unable to find it. Remembering it however is easy, how could one forget crawling out of my tent just before sunrise to mix the chemicals? Then pump it into the spray tank and hand start the cub. Then to be in the air just as it was getting light enough to see safely and get in as many acres as possible before the wind came up and shut down our flying until evening. Then with luck the wind would go down enough to allow us to resume work before darkness would shut us down for the day. The company had a very good method for assuring we would spray the correct field.

Each new job was given to us by the salesman who after selling the farmer drew a map for the pilots with the location of the farm and each building and its color plus all the different crops were written on the map drawn to scale. As well as the buildings all trees, fences and power lines were drawn to scale. It was very easy for us to find and positively identify our field to be sprayed and I can not remember us making any errors in that regard.

Sadly there were to many flying errors made and during the first three years that I crop-dusted eight pilots died in this very demanding type of flying in our area. Most of the accidents were due to stalling in turns or hitting power lines, fences or trees.

One new pilot who had only been with us for two weeks died while doing a low level stall turn and spinning in, he was just to low to recover from the loss of control. He had been on his way back from a spraying mission when he decided to put on an airshow at the farm of his girlfriend of the moment. This particular accident was to be the last for a long time as those of us who were flying for the different companies in that area had by that time figured out what the limits were that we could not go beyond.

Even though there were a lot of accidents in the early years they at least gave the industry the motivation to keep improving on flying safety, which made a great difference in the frequency of pilot error accidents. Agricultural flying has improved in other areas as well especially in the use of toxic chemicals.

In 1961 Rachel Carson wrote a book called "The silent spring. " This book was the beginning of public awareness to the danger of the wide area spraying of chemicals especially the use of D.D.T. to control Mosquitoes and black flies.

For years all over the world we had been using this chemical not really aware that it had a very long-term residual life. When Rachels book pointed out that D.D.T. had began to build up in the food chain in nature, she also showed that as a result many of the birds and other species were in danger of being wiped out due to D.D.T. Her book became a best seller and we in the aerial application business were worried that it would drastically affect our business, and it did.

The government agency in Ontario that regulated pesticides and their use called a series of meetings with the industry. From these meetings new laws were passed requiring us to attend Guelph agricultural college and receive a diploma in toxicology and entomology. I attended these classes and in the spring of 1962 passed the exams and received Pest Control License Class 3 - Aerial Applicator.

My license number was 001. Now if nothing else I can say that I may not have been the best but I was the first. Without doubt the knowledge and understanding of the relationship of these chemicals to the environment more than made up for all the work that went into getting the license. From that point on the industry went to great length to find and use chemicals less toxic to our animal life and also to humans.

It would be easy to just keep right on writing about aerial application and all the exciting and sometimes boring experiences we had, however I will sum it all up with the observation that crop dusting was not only my first flying job it was without doubt the best. I flew seven seasons' crop dusting and I often think of someday giving it another go, at least for a short time.
 
Your a good man, Chuck. We appreciate your input.

My 2 cents... The first hours in an airplane model you need to be looking at the airspeed indicator and other instruments to see what your feeling in different flight parameters.
Occasionally doing this later on doesn't hurt either, keeps one "honed in his skills".
 
My only concern when discussing the art of airplane handling is to err on the side of caution and to do that one must reinforce the basics that have been learned and proven since the Wright brothers got us into this form mobility.

Of course I am well aware that as one gains more and more experience one develops what could be described as an instinct for the feel of flight and occasionally we can get bitten real hard by trusting instinct and ignoring proven clues to warn us that we are about to go outside the envelope.

When giving advice to those who ask for advice and I detect that the person asking the questions may not be at the experience level to clearly understand or be able to judge what " feelings " he/she is experiencing I try and point out that one should double check by using known means of determining where in the flight envelope you really are.

Just as an after thought, even though I am retired I am still willing to do one more contract if the opportunity arises.....I see they are making another series for TV called " The Pacific " which is much like " Band of Brothers " I was the stand by pilot for the Band of Brothers but unfortunately I was not needed as the regular pilots were avaliable during the shooting of the films.

Here is a picture of Fifi Kate one of the airplanes used in " Band of Brothers " still in her movie paint scheme, the picture was taken in Holland where I had just ferried it for an inspection.

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ChuckEllsworth/?action=view&current=P1010045-1.jpg&newest=1

I am going to quit now as this thread hijack is getting out of hand. :D
 
Chuck E. said:
My only concern when discussing the art of airplane handling is to err on the side of caution and to do that one must reinforce the basics that have been learned and proven since the Wright brothers got us into this form mobility.



Of course I am well aware that as one gains more and more experience one develops what could be described as an instinct for the feel of flight and occasionally we can get bitten real hard by trusting instinct and ignoring proven clues to warn us that we are about to go outside the envelope.

When giving advice to those who ask for advice and I detect that the person asking the questions may not be at the experience level to clearly understand or be able to judge what " feelings " he/she is experiencing I try and point out that one should double check by using known means of determining where in the flight envelope you really are.

Just as an after thought, even though I am retired I am still willing to do one more contract if the opportunity arises.....I see they are making another series for TV called " The Pacific " which is much like " Band of Brothers " I was the stand by pilot for the Band of Brothers but unfortunately I was not needed as the regular pilots were avaliable during the shooting of the films.

Here is a picture of Fifi Kate one of the airplanes used in " Band of Brothers " still in her movie paint scheme, the picture was taken in Holland where I had just ferried it for an inspection.

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ChuckEllsworth/?action=view&current=P1010045-1.jpg&newest=1

I am going to quit now as this thread hijack is getting out of hand. :D



yes, yes, cool, great pic, and don't stop the carnival! Hijacks are cool 8)
 
Great posts all very interesting.

Landing with full forward trim in my cub results in shorter landing distances. I was sceptical but, I am now convinced. I don't like the stick pressure at full forward trim but, it isn't bad when the plane is slowed down. As a reference, if I just leave the trim set for the 2250 cruise setting, it (stick pressure) feels great for takeoff and landings as well. I'm mystified how landing with full forward trim results in maybe 15% less landing distances for my plane. Could it be possible due to the higher angle of attack on the horizontal stabilizer, it is sharing some of the total flight load resulting in a lighter wing loading? It seems to be more than getting the plane fully slowed down with better feel. Could it be actually flying slower?
 
I have seen some techniques not mentioned yet. I saw an extended wing cub land between 2 trees 30' apart. roll out short. when on skies, line up on protruding rocks and kick full rudder as you get to them. speed bleeds off fast as gear folds under. when landing perpendicular to a dike at the end it can throw pa 12 up and come down on nose quite short. my point is to practice lots before actual short strip attack. as an aside i have seen an 0-320 crank can take alot. props are soft though. ive also learned that ag-pilot and sd2 no longer loan out planes.
 
Great posts all very interesting.

Landing with full forward trim in my cub results in shorter landing distances. I was sceptical but, I am now convinced. I don't like the stick pressure at full forward trim but, it isn't bad when the plane is slowed down. As a reference, if I just leave the trim set for the 2250 cruise setting, it (stick pressure) feels great for takeoff and landings as well. I'm mystified how landing with full forward trim results in maybe 15% less landing distances for my plane. Could it be possible due to the higher angle of attack on the horizontal stabilizer, it is sharing some of the total flight load resulting in a lighter wing loading? It seems to be more than getting the plane fully slowed down with better feel. Could it be actually flying slower?

Not saying it doesn't work for you but it's close to the opposite what the top place holders at Valdez do. They hang more toward the full nose up side of the trim range. Keep in mind this is just white line technique.

Jerry
 
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Ive never landed with full nose down trim. I like a little back pressure but it would be to much for me in my cub. If im loaded heavy aft I will trim nose down 2 turns.

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Different cub different trim there not all the same, my cert cub got in short with full forward trim but my new exp cub with the big motor is a whole different bird, now it takes a little nose up. bottom line just learn to fly YOUR cub.

DW
 
I have seen some techniques not mentioned yet. I saw an extended wing cub land between 2 trees 30' apart. roll out short. when on skies, line up on protruding rocks and kick full rudder as you get to them. speed bleeds off fast as gear folds under. when landing perpendicular to a dike at the end it can throw pa 12 up and come down on nose quite short. my point is to practice lots before actual short strip attack. as an aside i have seen an 0-320 crank can take alot. props are soft though. ive also learned that ag-pilot and sd2 no longer loan out planes.



Eaton, when did you fly a -12?;-);-)

I know, just come on up and carry out the threat!:lol:
 
What are u talking about George. You been drinkin again?


Mobile SteveE, Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Any more comments about the "full forward trim" technique?? (I assume "full forward" to mean full 'nose-down' or stab adjusted/trimmed leading edge "UP").

I've always wondered about the full-forward technique, but never had any results or reasoning to back it up.

Anything else to say about it? Some of the particulars about it that were previously mentioned don't seem to comply with flight-physics :)....in my opinion.

Thanks for any more comments. DAVE
 
Any more comments about the "full forward trim" technique?? (I assume "full forward" to mean full 'nose-down' or stab adjusted/trimmed leading edge "UP").

I've always wondered about the full-forward technique, but never had any results or reasoning to back it up.

Anything else to say about it? Some of the particulars about it that were previously mentioned don't seem to comply with flight-physics :)....in my opinion.

Thanks for any more comments. DAVE

I have played with this technique and a number of other non-stabilized takeoff and landing trim techniques in several different cubs and the 180 and 170. Bear in mind that I am not willing to tear up my plane or myself for even a $10,000 prize so I'm not contest material from the get go, but for me being stabilized is the safest and most effective way to hit the spot and land short. If you can't hit the desired spot, there is not much use in landing short. I think that is what really separates the men from the boys so to speak.

sj




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Nice picture Kase.

The full forward trim method is a stabilized approach and just as easy to spot land also. Seems like the trouble usually starts when brakes are doing the stopping. I'm no expert though.
Has anyone cracked the code on take off methods? Any difference in distance between:
1) Tailwheel just barely off the ground until flown off.
2) Tailwheel high until ready to fly and then pulled down.

Maybe I'll bring my tape measure when DW and I hook up next time. He might not want to share the secret though.8)
 
. If you can't hit the desired spot, there is not much use in landing short. I think that is what really separates the men from the boys so to speak.

sj




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ow.........Ohhhh, the pain.
 
I'll mess around with the trim settings when I do pattern work, but haven't noticed one technique being more precise than the other. Maybe the different technique is just a good excuse for not landing where you want to :)

Landing with forward trim (cruise trim, not full forward) seems to help me with wheel landings, and if I want to do a 3 point, I'll trim for very little pressure on the stick through the pattern.
 
I like to trim for a nose down condition, enough so that when I'm on final I'm pulling some back stick to be stabilized. When the mains touch from a tail-low attitude it is more natural for the tail to come up and kill lift when it does and keep the airplane stuck to the ground. Braking or pushing the stick forward does this too but for me just releasing the stick pressure a bit will do it nicely. Then I'd usually get on the brakes and pull back stick again to keep the tail from rising.

I've used full forward trim with someone in the back but solo it doesn't take that much forward trim.

Forward trim also gets that tail up quick for take-off.

For me those are all positives and I don't see any negatives unless, as someone said, you need to swat at a bug and release the stick in the process. And I once did get a bee between my eye and my eye glass lens. It stung me good and my eye swelled shut. But I wasn't on short final at the time. :oops:
 
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