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Thread: Overhead Flap handle Pics

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    tcraft128's Avatar
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    Overhead Flap handle Pics

    Ok, So I have searched for some info on the overhead flap handle and I have found some discussion, so drawings of what could work, but I am looking for what is flying and working. Are there any pics of the overhead handle like in the CC sport sub or the Carbon Cub that are viewable to the public? This seems to come up every year or so, but there just are not any good pics of the cable routing, handle attach or design floating around. if you have or know where they can be found, post them here. At least people searching later in time will be able to find them.

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    Marty57's Avatar
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    Here are a couple of pictures I took this summer at the West Cost Cub Fly-in. Cool set up.
    Marty57



    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
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  3. #3

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    Has there been anymore info about this mod, I am very interested in fabricating one of these.

    Jim

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    irishfield's Avatar
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    Just like the Murphy Elite.. I'm not interested in banging my head off one of these in an "arrival" !

  5. #5
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishfield View Post
    Just like the Murphy Elite.. I'm not interested in banging my head off one of these in an "arrival" !
    that's been my thought.... OUCH!!! goodnight... fire starts now........

  6. #6
    Mark Lund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcraft128 View Post
    Ok, So I have searched for some info on the overhead flap handle and I have found some discussion, so drawings of what could work, but I am looking for what is flying and working. Are there any pics of the overhead handle like in the CC sport sub or the Carbon Cub that are viewable to the public? This seems to come up every year or so, but there just are not any good pics of the cable routing, handle attach or design floating around. if you have or know where they can be found, post them here. At least people searching later in time will be able to find them.
    There is a Carbon Cub kit in a local shop. As I recall there are no flap cables. The push rod coming from the flap handle activates a rod that runs horizontally from the inboard end of one flap to the inboard end of the other. They don't appear to use an inboard flap hinge the way the Piper cubs do. The inboard end of the flaps ride on bearings attached to that rear rod that crosses the fuselage behind the rear wing spar. Sorry I don't have pictures. CC came up with a pretty clever design as long as the overhead handle isn't a problem in an "incident".

    I've seen the builder's manuals and they appear to be very detailed and well done.

    Mark
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  7. #7
    Clay Hammond's Avatar
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    That whole assembly in the CC Cubs is pretty far up and out of the way. Its not like a SuperCub in that respect, you have a lot more room around your head. I don't think my head would come in contact with it unless the belt or seat gave way...and then I'm probably dealing with bigger problems.

  8. #8
    centmont's Avatar
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    It only takes about two approaches where you don't have to scoot your ass over, take your eyes off the runway, reach down under your left boot while controlling the throttle with your left hand and hoping like hell you don't need full left aileron because your thigh is in the way ..... to fall in love with this system. Additionally, CC designed the flaps this way because there are fewer moving parts and the entire thing is lighter. If your head hits the handle where it is....you are just about to have a really, really bad day and some major problems eclipsing any worries about it. Ralph
    "Entropy just isn't the same anymore"
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  9. #9
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    Carbon Cub - 2008 at OshkoshAttachment 5009IMG_2615.jpgIMG_2580b.jpgIMG_2646a.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Darrel Starr; 01-14-2012 at 11:30 PM.
    "Crazyass passion is the staple of life and persistence its nourishing force. Without them, you cannot cross the trail" - Rinker Buck

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    Does anyone have any more pics of that I am going to do this on my 12. I am at a point that I can change it over and I really like the overhead handle and torque tube arrangement.

  11. #11
    tcraft128's Avatar
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    Skip, Have you come down and seen our setup? Not sure if you were one of our few visitors or not.
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  12. #12

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    I have a torque tube at the near the rear spar crossover that oparated by pushrod. has to short pushrods from that torque tube to the flaps. ditch the cables

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    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Tell me when tcraft I would love to

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    How did you attach the pushrods to the flaps

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    Little_Cub's Avatar
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    we fitted the pivot over the front cross tube with a split aluminum block, bolted in place and greased the tube.
    another thought.. placing the trigger on the back seemed like a more intuitive location.. it activates as you get to the handle.

    IMG_3235.jpg 1.png
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  17. #17
    tcraft128's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip View Post
    Tell me when tcraft I would love to
    Skip, we are going strong every Saturday from now until it flies, call me if you are coming and WATCH OUT FOR P50!

    Jay
    Last edited by WindOnHisNose; 09-12-2014 at 09:29 AM. Reason: phone number eliminated per tcraft128 request
    Turning money into noise since 1996

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  18. #18
    Lowrider
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    Little Cub,

    I'm planning something much like that but I'm using rod ends to allow some adjustment at the flap end of the rod and also on the torque tube which will be accessable from inside the cabin. I don't have it all worked out yet but I think it will give enough mechanical advantage to allow 50 degrees flaps with something like 12" movement of the flap handle which should keep it high enough to not get in the way with flaps down.

    Your split block with a PTFE liner is another idea that I may play with some before I finalize the system. Glad to see yours works well.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  19. #19
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    A Citabria uses a split phenolic block to support each end of the torque tube. The Lake LA-4 uses a phenolic block with a needle bearing at each end. The loads on these parts can be very high, depending on the size of the flap and direction of the load, so you need to consider the friction factor in the support block.
    N1PA

  20. #20
    Lowrider
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    Sky,

    If I use split blocks I was thinking of aluminum block with a bolt on each side mounted to the rear spar with some reinforcing (maybe 0.063 6061) at the attach point. Are you saying that would not be adequate or is some other attach point/method suggested?

    Actually, I'm thinking of two rod ends attached to the rear spar by a 4130 plate/bolt and a fork on the torque tube and a bolt thru. This would allow tweaking as necessary to ensure alignment. Maybe I should consider an attachment between the front and rear spars with a 4130 tube in between. My flaps are fairly large.
    Last edited by Lowrider; 05-18-2014 at 09:46 AM.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  21. #21
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    No, that is not what I was saying. Just be sure that your method has a low friction component (oil hole, grease fitting, frictionless materiel, etc.) and properly supports the torque tube.
    N1PA

  22. #22
    Lowrider
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    OK, they also make the rod ends with teflon liner. I'm not big on the idea of alum to 4130 contact where there is movement. I was thinking PTFE sheet in the blocks and polished 4130 at the joint. I like the ability to adjust the mounts which is why I'm pretty sure I'll use rod ends.

    I would be very interested if anyone has pix of their torque tube attachments and how they are suspended inside the wings.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  23. #23
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The Citabria and Lake, which I mentioned, have bellcranks welded or bolted to the torque tube. The bellcrank is located just outside the fuselage, connected through a short push rod to the inboard end of the flap. Nothing out in the wing. The flap itself absorbs the twisting load of the surface.
    N1PA
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  24. #24
    Mauleguy's Avatar
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    I think that a flap handle above the head in any position is bad. I would not want it there in case the worst day of your life happens. Having been in an accident and also witnessing some pretty bad ones this is not a place you need metal hanging down to run through the side of your head. People have said you have more to worry about then this if you are already at that point and I disagree. This may be the thing that kills or leaves you a vegetable, you could have survived the accident if that handle had not gone through the side of your temple. It could also be that one thing that keeps you trapped inside unable to get out.

    Just my two cents on it.
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  25. #25
    Lowrider
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    Sky,

    My flaps are set up for center actuation so my bell crank will be in the wing. Thought that would help to reduce the twist in the flap and ailerons.

    Mauleguy,

    Understand your concern. I had a friend in college that hit a pig in an MGB...pig went over the hood and thru the windshield...he ducked and was impaled on the gear shift and the knob and rod went thru his liver. I should have died in Feb 1970 from an RPG.
    Not to sound reckless, but my Dad used to say if you're born to hang you're not going to drown.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

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    irishfield's Avatar
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    Well I reiterate post #4.. jumped in my customers Elite, to fire it up and put it back in the hangar this afternoon, and gashed my head open on the handle climbing in. Love my floor mounted flap system... but there is a cut in the side of my knee....
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  27. #27
    Jonnyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Cub View Post
    we fitted the pivot over the front cross tube with a split aluminum block, bolted in place and greased the tube.
    another thought.. placing the trigger on the back seemed like a more intuitive location..it activates as you get to the handle.

    IMG_3235.jpg 1.png


    "......it activates as you get to the handle."


    A step is eliminated. Brilliant.

  28. #28
    stewartb's Avatar
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    If I ever build another Cub it’ll have an overhead flap handle with pushrods. No cables, no pulleys. With the headroom in a Rev airframe there’s space for it. Anyone building a Rev 3? I’d like to see that flap control setup.

  29. #29
    S2D's Avatar
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    how about a pic of someone sitting in their cub with the flap handle deployed?? right there is where I do most of my looking .
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.

  30. #30
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    There:




    Maybe I'm thinking wrong, but I plan to crash my cub mostly head first, not sideways.
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  31. #31
    Jonnyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    If I ever build another Cub it’ll have an overhead flap handle with pushrods. No cables, no pulleys. With the headroom in a Rev airframe there’s space for it. Anyone building a Rev 3? I’d like to see that flap control setup.






    Here is a picture of the REV last Spring. I was helping Joe Trujillo figure out the linkages, spacing and angles. The flap handle is totally out of your line of sight and head; even in the worst crash.
    You don't have to move your arm way up and forward to get to it like some other designs. The handle is long. It has to be. The flaps go all the way to the rear spar and are around 12 feet.
    Each flap is probably the area of 4 stock cub flaps, maybe more. The idea is to "throw the air at the ground, not just pat it" as John Ronce (Wing design for Rutan, Beech Starship and etc.)
    said once, in an aerodynamics lecture.

    The red arrow is the actuator rod that goes back to a torque tube running inside the flap cove. No air drag and no cable drag.

    The blue arrow is the actuator arm that is outside of the fuselage in the wing root. Again, totally out of the way of baggage, your head. A very clean set up.

    The yellow arrow is the I beam compression tube. The flap and aileron hangers are bolted directly to the compression tubes, which transfer the load to both spars. They are very light weight. The flap hangers are one piece CNC machined, aluminum parts, that are amazingly light. I have more pictures but since I don't currently work for Backcountry, I would want to get Bruce's permission to post more. Jonny O

    BACKCOUNTRY FLAP HANDLE showing parts .jpg
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    stewartb's Avatar
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    So the cross tube pivots and the right wing linkage is a mirror image?

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    S2D's Avatar
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    thanks Oli !!
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.

  34. #34
    CenterHillAg's Avatar
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    Judging by the gouges and scratches all around my helmet after a crash where I flipped the plane, I don’t want anything else around my head than what is necessary. I like the idea and simplicity of the overhead handle, but all of them seem to be in the way if you go in with full flaps pulled.
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  35. #35
    Tony flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyo View Post
    The idea is to "throw the air at the ground, not just pat it" as John Ronce (Wing design for Rutan, Beech Starship and etc.)
    said once, in an aerodynamics lecture.

    Jonny O

    BACKCOUNTRY FLAP HANDLE showing parts .jpg
    Or as has been stated by the smart guy he was designing airfoils for.....Flaps are there to turn a good flying machine at altitude into a great "Ground effect machine" down low!
    FEAR IS A REACTION, COURAGE IS A DECISION

  36. #36
    Jonnyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    So the cross tube pivots and the right wing linkage is a mirror image?

    Stewartb Sorry, I should have labeled the "cross tube". Yes, the tube that the flap handle is attached to spans across the fuselage, left to right. ( and is way behind the pilots head ) The linkage in the right wing is a mirror image.


    CenterHiillAg The photo I enclosed shows the flap handle engaged or "down". In the Backcountry setup, everything is way behind your head. I will look for a photo with someone sitting in the cockpit for perspective.

    Jonny O
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  37. #37

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    Back in 2002 I saw fuel prices going up dramatically, I had a bushmaster that required 100 Oct fuel. It was getting so I couldn't afford to fly it.

    I wanted something LSA that could use a small Cont. Or Lyc. I designed a plane that was slightly smaller than a cub (32') that I thought would weigh around 700 empty. Drew up some plans on the shop floor and went to work. I always loved flaps so my plane has them. I drove the flaps from an overhead handle with push rod to the left flap, torque tube just forward of the rear spar to drive the right flap. No cables or pulleys. I finished the plane in 2012. Ended up 800lbs., With o-320, Catto and 27" tundra tires. Flap system has worked just fine. Would make only minor changes if I was to do it agian.

    Doubt the big spenders care but
    Did it for less than 18K.
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  38. #38
    Tony flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by don d View Post
    Back in 2002 I saw fuel prices going up dramatically, I had a bushmaster that required 100 Oct fuel. It was getting so I couldn't afford to fly it.

    I wanted something LSA that could use a small Cont. Or Lyc. I designed a plane that was slightly smaller than a cub (32') that I thought would weigh around 700 empty. Drew up some plans on the shop floor and went to work. I always loved flaps so my plane has them. I drove the flaps from an overhead handle with push rod to the left flap, torque tube just forward of the rear spar to drive the right flap. No cables or pulleys. I finished the plane in 2012. Ended up 800lbs., With o-320, Catto and 27" tundra tires. Flap system has worked just fine. Would make only minor changes if I was to do it agian.

    Doubt the big spenders care but
    Did it for less than 18K.
    Not to hijack this thread, but would love to see pictures as well as performance numbers if you haven’t already posted them elsewhere. Maybe start a separate thread.
    FEAR IS A REACTION, COURAGE IS A DECISION

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