Results 1 to 37 of 37

Thread: Fluidyne Airglide C3000 Hydraulic Skis

  1. #1
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like

    Fluidyne Airglide C3000 Hydraulic Skis

    My son Rick bought a PA-12 has been bugging me to do some ski flying. He has the 12 at a control tower airport so I was toying with the idea of putting the C3000 skis on the 12 but he found a place at a small field and we have a set of Federal 2000 straight skis from the last 12 so we are good to go now. I took out the C3000 and since I haven't put them on for a few years (got tired of putting them on every year and not going anywhere so I said I wasn't going to put them on till I knew I had someplace to go). I think that Rick and I will likely be doing some winter flying so I decided to go through the skis and get them ready for next year. I remembered that the reason I came to the conclusion to put them away was that they needed some work before I put them on again. I took them out and had a look at them. One of the aluminum strips that holds the plastic bottoms down had worn through and about 4" of it was missing. The other ski was thin on that piece also. I should have just changed those two pieces of aluminum strap and they would have been good to go, but noooooo. I thought I might as well do a full service of the skis and be ready for some serious bush flyin! The plastic bottoms were 3/32 and that was thin enough that they rippled and were sticking down below the aluminum strips and then rubbing. So I thought that I would just change the bottoms and put on 3/16" plastic. Here is a photo of the skis before I started.
    [img][/img]

  2. #2
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Bottoms are put on with aluminum strips that are mostly rivited with rivets that are coutersunk for a flat finish on the bottom and a few philips countersunk machine screws with lock nuts on the top. The center 'keel' strip is much thicker aluminum and it is put on with machine screws and lock nuts.


    [img][/img]


    You can see how the bottoms have rippled.

  3. #3
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    Removing the rivets means drilling them out without touching the hole in the ski bottom plate. If you change the size of the hole, you have compromised your ability to use the same size rivets on reinstall. I had a nipper thing that looks like a horse shoe tool that cut the heads off the aluminum rivets pretty good. After you get the hear off one end or the other, I used a punch to pop the rivet out of there. After getting to the point where you are commited, I found that the center keel strip had an issue. Up front on the wide part of the ski is a snow shield plate and there are about 7 nuts under that plate. I called our mechanic and he said that it should be a nut strip or threaded into the ski bottom plate. Mine wasn't, they were just nuts so I had to drill all of the rivets out of that plate and take that off.



  4. #4
    behindpropellers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    6,163
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by captainron55746
    Removing the rivets means drilling them out without touching the hole in the ski bottom plate. If you change the size of the hole, you have compromised your ability to use the same size rivets on reinstall. I had a nipper thing that looks like a horse shoe tool that cut the heads off the aluminum rivets pretty good. After you get the hear off one end or the other, I used a punch to pop the rivet out of there. After getting to the point where you are commited, I found that the center keel strip had an issue. Up front on the wide part of the ski is a snow shield plate and there are about 7 nuts under that plate. I called our mechanic and he said that it should be a nut strip or threaded into the ski bottom plate. Mine wasn't, they were just nuts so I had to drill all of the rivets out of that plate and take that off.



    Um....

    How do you plan on re-attaching the piece you took off? Is there a way to get a bucking bar in the saddle? Or are you just going to POP rivet them back?
    Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
    J-5 Project Pictures

  5. #5
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    After removing those nuts and bolts then the bottom can come off and be cleaned up.







  6. #6
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    Behindpropellers:
    That plate was put on with cherrymax rivits which is like a pop rivet. That plate is a snow shield to keep snow from building up in front of the tire so it should be easy enough to put back on, but I will put a nut strip or something for that center keel so that it doesn't have to come off again next time.
    Captain Ron

  7. #7
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    OK - so now we have the plastic off and I was not able to save the aluminum strips that hold it on. Most of the rivets that were drilled out compromised the tapered seat in the aluminum strips. I was really careful not to compromise the ski itself and I got better at removing the rivets as I went along, but all the stips will be replaced on this ski. We'll see how I do on the second ski if I can save any of those. Now, inside the tunnel of the ski is the cylinder for actuating the retract mechanism. It needs to come out to be serviced.



    It has a pin from the inboard side of the tunnel and it can come out through the tunnel opening. The Orings need to be changed and the rod inspected for burs. Don't put any kind of wrench on the rod or piston or any internal parts of the hydraulic cylinder. The elbows have to come off before the cylinder can be broken down. The ends are held on by snap rings and captured by the elbows.



    Snap rings are tricky - you want to be carefull with those and use eye protection and cover with a rag if you can. Don't forget to drain the cylinder about 4 steps ago. You'll have oil all over the place by now if you didn't.



    So far so good!

  8. #8
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    OK - so as long as we are in this far - remove the bungee shock system in the back half of the ski. Looking in the tunnel opening and to the rear you can see the attachment and the cottered castelated nut that must be removed. That is a lot easier to take out than to put back!



    Once it is out, inspect and repair or replace as necessary, any parts or cable that doesn't appear to be in like new condition. You aren't going into this every year so make sure that when it goes back together you have the confidence that it will last for 20 years of good service!





    Captain Ron

  9. #9
    Richard Deblack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Twin Cities, MN
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like
    Nice post Dad!
    I had no idea those skis were so complex. I'll help out when I come home this weekend.
    Fast or slow, always low, freedom of flight soothes the soul.

  10. #10
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Crookston, MN
    Posts
    7,900
    Post Thanks / Like
    A recommendation on the wear strips on the ski bottoms: Use UHMW plastic instead of metal for these strips. It'll wear as well, and will help to prevent the skis from sticking down. Those metal wear strips REALLY stick to the snow in some (most) conditions.

    MTV

  11. #11
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    MTV:
    Do you mean for all the strips or just the center keel? What thickness would you use for them? the center keel is about 1/4" but the side strips of aluminum are only about 3/32".


    Captain Ron

  12. #12
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Crookston, MN
    Posts
    7,900
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ron,

    1/4 inch strips work fine for all of em. Or whatever you've got. Too thin a strips will sag a bit, though, so I'd go with 1/4.

    MTV

  13. #13
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    3,677
    Post Thanks / Like
    Are these skis the ones that can be purchased in a manual retractable version? And then at a later date you can add the hydraulics?
    N1PA

  14. #14
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    Skywagon8A:
    I don't think so. I use them on the 76 180 and once they are hooked up to the pump they are hydraulically locked, you would never be able to move them. I read in another thread about how many pumps it takes to cam them over and I haven't counted but it is a lot. I was being lazy one day and didn't pump until I got a hydraulic lock. I just pumped until both skis went over and I felt the thump from each one hit the stop. I then put the up down lever in the lock position and thought I was good, but the result was a landing on the lake with one ski up and one ski down. It didn't make much difference in the snow but it would likely have not gone so well on a runway. I coasted to a stop and when I made my turnaround I couldn't believe how well it turned! When I went to straighten out and taxi back, it went around again so I got out and looked and thats when I found the issue. Won't do that again! Just a note of info for all you out there who have these. When we first bought these, the mechanic was putting them on for the first time and had the tunnel cover off while he was working on them. He went to pump them over to test the pump or something and folded the ski in half. Don't ever try to cycle them with the tunnel cover off. We have one ski with a new tunnel!

    Ron

  15. #15
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    OK - the saga continues.
    I got all new parts from Wipline to go through the piston which is comprised of several O Rings and a small scraper ring. I think the cost on that was about $20 for both skiis - not bad. In addition to overhauling the insides, the outside was buffed down and painted with the same rust preventive paint we use on the bench - It was right there and real handy! I will leave the piston out till the end as there is a lot of manipulating of the ski during this process and it doesn't need to be any heavier than it already is - set piston aside.


  16. #16
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    Next I ordered the Plastic UHMW for the bottoms. It was available in black or white. Black was a few bucks cheaper but I don't know if that would be an issue or not, I stuck with the white so as not to introduce any unrelated variables into an equation that I am not master of and cannot forsee the effects of variable changes. The plastic that was on the skis was 1/16 or maybe 3/32. Actually it was in good enough shape to continue in service, but I ordered a sheet of 3/16 for $150 that would give more stability to resist the washboarding I was getting, yet still be flexible enough to work with easily. The 1/4" gets much more difficult to work with I am told. I did notice later that each of the rivet holes was cracked to the outside edge on the old plastic bottom showing evidence of hardening and brittleness with age. The staining that I had under the plastic bottom that I thought was rust or something turned out to be aircraft hydraulic oil, I wonder if that had any affect on the plastic that may have caused the washboarding. I used the old bottom as a pattern for cutting the new. I also needed two long and one short strip for keels and hold downs on each ski. Before you cut you need to think about if you want to change the size at all. I think I would have cut the bottoms a half in bigger all around if I was to do it again.



  17. #17
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Crookston, MN
    Posts
    7,900
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ron,

    Just a thought: Get some new hydraulic lines made up at the same time, if yours are at all old. The most likely source of a leak is the lines and fittings, and all new don't cost all that much.

    MTV

  18. #18
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Corcoran MN
    Posts
    2,484
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ron, these are great posts, for me. I have a set of these skis and haven't taken them apart to see what makes them tick...your photos are terrific. Keep up the good work, and keep posting those photos!

    Randy

  19. #19
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    I was thinking about that - no sense to do a good job and leave those old hoses in! I am also wondering about the bungees. I couldn't stretch them in the vice and I should change them, but wonder about what to get. I think I might start by calling Wipline and see what info I can get from them. Well, the hydraulics are 4 separate hoses, a long and a short and each is a left and a right. $137.50 ea plus shipping X 4. Bungees are $59.00 ea X 4. They recommend to send in the bungee unit in and let them put the new ones on as it is easy to ruin the carrier and get hurt in the process without a jig. 1-2 hours labor. Those two items would add $1000.00 to the project - Wow - Have to think about the options here. I went to springs to replace the external bungees long ago because I was changing them every three or four years. I have never changed the internal ones and have had the skis for 30 years - they were made in 1958 and maybe never were changed - that can't be good!
    Captain Ron

  20. #20

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Cotton, MN
    Posts
    230
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ouch! Ron, if your hose ends aren't rusty you should be able to buy enough Aeroquip hose locally for less than $100 for all and reuse the ends. Metal chopsaw works well for cutting it. Let me know if you need a hand with it. Actually I believe I might have a coil of the hose you would need out in the shop, you'd be welcome to use some.

    Mark Johnston
    Cotton, MN
    Practicing open cockpit extremism

  21. #21
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Crookston, MN
    Posts
    7,900
    Post Thanks / Like
    That does seem pretty steep for hydraulic hoses.

    Thanks again for the great "travelog" through the rebuild on your skis. Nice documentation.

    MTV

  22. #22
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    I decided to do one ski complete before going in to the other one. That way I can go and look and see where I am going and I won't get any left mixed up with any right. I have already needed to do that several times and I am glad I did it that way. When I started, I went over to Sky Harbor and asked Kevin what it would cost to put new bottoms on and he told me that it would take 10 hours plus material. Lets see, that would be about $650.00 plus the plastic. Holy Cow I can see this project running $1000. and I know I have 10 hours - heck that is one Saturday afternoon. So I decide to do it myself. Now that I am into it I can reflect back and say that I spend as much time thinking and scratching my head as I do working because it is much more important to me to have it right, than to have it done, and I try to make all my mistakes in my head rather than on the skis. I am sure I will have 100 hours in this before I am done, but I did much more than put new bottoms on. That is assuming the second one goes twice as fast as the first. OK - so we cut out the bottom and got the fuzzies off the edges with a little block plane so now we flip the ski over and line the bottom up where we think it will go and make any adjustments necessary and clamp it up.




    I decided to use the 3/16 for all the strips as I had plenty of that and didn't want to buy a half sheet of 1/4 just for that. I cut the strips on the table saw. The Keel goes on first. Start in the middle and work out. If you put the ends on first and clamp towards the middle, you will have too much material when you get there and it will buckle. The center keel is beveled on both ends as are a number of other pieces that go on. I did that on the grinder and this stuff grinds about the same as steel. Sent Pa right through the roof, though, when he saw me grinding plastic on the grind stone - wandered off inventing new swear words about the kids these days! The keel screws were 1/4-28 with nylock nuts on the top. That is fine thread and they were not stainless. After putting on a few I went and got stainless new ones but could not find the fine and used the 1/4-20. I bought a 100 degree cutter for countersinking the heads and was concerned that the stainless screws that I bought at the hardware store would not work well with that. Standard hardware heads come in several head angles like 78 or 90 but the 100 must be aviation specific. The head on the screws I bought are as large or larger than the ones I took out and when I hold the cutter and the screw up next to each other they look the same and it turned out to be no issue at all. The guy at the hardware store didn't even know you had a choice in head angle and the boxes weren't marked. So here we go!
    Captain Ron


  23. #23
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like

    Airglide C3000 & C2200 Illustrated Parts Manual

    I run the C3000 skis on the Cessna 180 but the C2200 is the appropriate version for the cubs. I have the manuals for both and could share them in this thread for reference, I will scan that baby in . . . . . . . .
    All right, I know most of you who run the Airglide skis probably have the manuals and prints for the skis and installation drawings as Fluidyne was very good about handing out documentation to anyone who asked, but for those of you who don't I scanned in the manual and was going to post it here as a .pdf file. I can't seem to figure out how to do an attachment so can anybody help me out here? Does anybody need or want something like that?
    Captain Ron

  24. #24
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Crookston, MN
    Posts
    7,900
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ron,

    PM Steve Johnson, the Great Kahuna around here. He can post it in the appropriate place.

    MTV

  25. #25
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    Done!
    We will see what the Great Kahuna speaks - -


  26. #26
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    OK - The Great Kahuna has Spoke
    Right now you can't do an attachment but that will be corrected shortly. I can, and have, uploaded it to my photos page here and you can download it from there.
    Try this link - http://www.supercub.org/photopost/da...200_Manual.pdf

    Captain Ron

  27. #27
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    OK so we put on the center keel strip with stainless countersunk nuts and bolts and now we get to the rivetting. I was told to use the soft aluminum rivets and they would work harden in the process of rivetting. I ordered the rivets and they came as the hard rivets. There were two sizes involved, 1/4" and 3/16". The rivets I got are the MS20426AD6-16 and MS20426AD8-16. The 16 at the end is the length in 16ths so these are 1 inch long. The number right before the dash 16 is the width in 32s - the 6 is 3/16" diameter and the 8 is 1/4" diameter. The AD is the hardness spec and they are harder than the A spec that I was after. I was told that I could anneal them before use by heating with an acetylene torch using no oxygen till they sooted up and then to turn on the oxygen and heat until they just came clean. Looking for about 400 degrees if I remember right. You need to buy these by the pound so you have plenty of extras. Sooting up the rivets was easy with the torch. Next you turn on the oxygen and heated them just till the soot burns off. After they cooled I found that half of the ones I did had melted and deformed and could not be used. Good thing I only did about 1/3 of the bag. The rivetting will hold down a long side strip, a short side strip, a really short side strip and the curved nose. I cut the curved nose as one piece replacing about 3 pieces on the original setup.


    I beveled the edges on a 45 where the front nose piece meets the side strips so that the front ent of the side strip is tucked under the tail of the front nose piece.





    The really short side strip had 1/4" rivets in it and I used the countersunk screws for that. I thought that it would just be easier. Now that it is done I wonder if the tire will come to rest on top of those screws. I will check that before I am done and if that is the case I will pull the screws and replace them with the rivets. I also beveled the front of the nose piece so it didn't have a flat front facing the oncoming snow.

    Captain Ron

  28. #28

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    N 41*03' W 73*26'
    Posts
    31
    Post Thanks / Like

    uhmw plastic

    who did you buy the plastic from
    thanks
    Steve
    steve

  29. #29
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    I got it from B & R Engineering here in Hibbing, Minnesota. They were able to roll the sheet and ship it UPS. Then I unrolled it and weighted it for a day to straighten it back out. I picked it up at their office but they can have it shipped direct to the customer, I'm sure!

    Capt Ron

  30. #30

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    COOK MINNESOTA
    Posts
    792
    Post Thanks / Like

    skis

    Now I know why I had a $6000 bill to pay when I had my flylites completely rebuilt, new metal and plastic bottoms, replace a couple of tunnels, new axles etc etc. Lots of time and hand fitting. Very nice "how to" post you have going Ron. I am enjoying following your progress.

  31. #31
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have to tell you that rivetting is a black art with more magic and wizard stuff than science and technology going on. It is a balancing act between the air pressure and the setting on the rivet gun, the size and weight of the bucking bar, the metallurgy and hardness of the rivets, the diameter and extension of the rivet, and which side you buck and drive from. There is definately a learning curve - I am glad they made me buy the rivets by the pound instead of the count I did plus 5. In the rivet kit we bought years ago, there came a bucking bar - looks like a little hammer, not sure what you would use that for but we tried it. We ended up with better results using a variety of steel rounds and squares we had on the shelf. You can see the bucking hammer on the big steel round.



    We found that if you could have the rivet supported by your bucking bar against a solit object, you got better results. If the rivet extension was too long, it folded over instead of smooshing down. It seemed the flat head hammer in the gun worked better than the concave hammer. We never got a nice round head on the drive end that you would expect with the concave hammer and bucking the flat countersunk end.



    Captain Ron

  32. #32

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Portland, ND
    Posts
    119
    Post Thanks / Like
    Did you try with the bucking bar on the shop head and the gun on the flat head? You can get more consistent results that way, IMO.

  33. #33
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Crookston, MN
    Posts
    7,900
    Post Thanks / Like
    Did you anneal the rivets?

    MTV

  34. #34
    captainron55746's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Hibbing, Minnesota
    Posts
    118
    Post Thanks / Like
    I did try driving with the flat hammer on the flat head of the rivet and bucked the top side, but it was difficult to keep things lined up. The gun runs all over the place. I also drove one rivet until the head broke off and another that spread the countersink hole until I thought it was going to break the plastic. I removed those two rivets and redid them driving on the top side. I did anneal the first batch and melted half of them and did not have a high confidence that I did it correctly. I ran out of that batch with one rivet to go to finish for the day and I used one that was the 'AD' hardness just to see what happened. Actually it went well and I did the last row today putting on the final long strip, and drove the rivets from the top side, in the hard condition and I used the concave hammer that really helped hold the gun on the rivet. This last row is the only set of rivets that look neat and professional. I am sure the other ski will look good, the only question now is how many am I going to go back and replace.




  35. #35
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Plymouth, MN
    Posts
    2,167
    Post Thanks / Like
    In re-riveting the cover sheet back on top of the ski, did you use Cherry Max rivets, some other kind of pull rivets or did you find a way to buck solid rivets? I'm thinking of the row of rivets that are drilled out in the following picture.
    Ski Picture with front sheet off.png
    Liquidating Excess Funds Through Aviation



  36. #36
    SpainCub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    544
    Post Thanks / Like
    Also, did you ever heat MS20426AD8? These are made of 2117 and as per the VANS RV8 manual, they are not to be heated. I've tried using 2017 to start rebuilding my skis, but I donīt seem to have the heating part all worked out, so I walked over tot the RV builders on my aerodrome and asked, and they suggested the 2117 for this very reason, they are T4 treated and donīt require further heat treatment.

    Iīm new to rivets, but my ERCEM skis have the similar shape and rivets at the front if the skis. All I need to get my done is change the bottoms, but I need to figure out if I can properly seat these rivets.

    Here an image or my skis when I picked them up:
    http://spaincub.wordpress.com

  37. #37

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,793
    Post Thanks / Like
    Alas, it's probably time to think about replacing the UHMW on my own Fluidynes. If I start now I might be finished by ski season. Looking at the pictures makes me groan. Oh well, the first step toward finishing is starting.

    I hope CaptainRon is recovering. Best wishes.

Similar Threads

  1. Fluidyne C2200 hydraulic skis
    By WindOnHisNose in forum Tips and Tricks
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-14-2013, 11:23 PM
  2. fluidyne skis
    By pzinck in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 12-26-2004, 11:09 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •