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Thread: Gap seals

  1. #1
    this would be a title NimpoCub's Avatar
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    Gap seals

    Since FLAP gap seals are such a GoodThing,
    ...how 'bout AILERON gap seals?

    Sure, they'd have to allow travel both ways (up/down) but why not seal ALL the draft holes. I reckon that if it did help, it would be a common mod, but my feeble brain wonders about stuff.
    Maybe y'all can help me get some sleep tonight.
    Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
    200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"

  2. #2
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    if you put them on ailerons, you must be forward with them more, in order to avoid having to cut a notch and make a dimple where top aileron cable rubs.....

    this mod is usually more done to dress up an ugly wing with bad trailing edge... its a pain to do a pretty even gap job....

    also it is IMPERATIVE when you install these that the wing is either installed on plane or sitting on saw horses at butt rib and AT strut attach fittings, not tip.. or wing will bow down in middle and screw up the nice gap you set....

  3. #3
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Logan,

    Who said that flap gap seals are such a great idea? In fact, depending on the type of flap your airplane has installed, flap gap seals may be a really BAD idea.

    My 170 has flap gap seals, and they are terrible in my opinion.

    Now, aileron gap seals on a Cessna are GREAT...

    Again, it depends on the type of ailerons your airplane has.

    MTV

  4. #4
    Cubus Maximus's Avatar
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    Mike is that because the 170B flap is a "flying flap" that needs smooth airflow over the top as well as the bottom in order to function correctly?

    I know in a gap sealess 18 and 12 I've flown that there was a lot of tail shaking going on, even with flaps retracted. Once gap seals were put on both airplanes this smoothed out the airflow. No more tail shaking with the flaps retracted and they felt more effective when deployed.

  5. #5
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Mike, I figure he is talking about a Super Cub since this is supercub.org and Logan has been rebuilding his Super Cub as seen from his posts from the last year. They seemed to work on my Pacer and Jerry (Mr. Weight Conscious) Burr has them last I saw.
    Steve Pierce

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    I put a set of flap and aileron seals on my Stinson 108-3 and they were great.

  7. #7
    this would be a title NimpoCub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion
    Logan wrote (red)

    depending on the type of flap your airplane has installed, flap gap seals may be a really BAD idea.

    Like Steve mentioned, I have stock SCub flaps/ailerons. If gap seals can be a bad thing, maybe I don't understand what they do exactly. (yep, I'm not smart, but lernin')
    I figgered they help prevent the high-pressure air from leaking up to the low-pressure side, and smooth out the airflow over the (otherwise) uneven top surface.


    My 170 has flap gap seals, and they are terrible in my opinion.

    Can you s'plain what is terrible??

    Now, aileron gap seals on a Cessna are GREAT...

    Can you s'plain why?? (effect on flight)

    Again, it depends on the type of ailerons your airplane has.

    I'm wondering if it would be an advantage to me (SCub wing with stock flaps/ailerons)... something that would be noticeable to flight control.
    Thanks Mike (I hope)
    Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
    200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"

  8. #8
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Just quit your searching, do your fixun and go fly!!!

    You keep pondering, and it will be 2011 before you are back in the air!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  9. #9
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NimpoCub
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion
    Logan wrote (red)
    I don't understand what they do exactly. (yep, I'm not smart, but lernin')
    I figgered they help prevent the high-pressure air from leaking up to the low-pressure side, and smooth out the airflow over the (otherwise) uneven top surface.[/color]
    they are named wrong... they don"t "seal" at all, there is a small gap always.... put the flaps full down and compare to one with them(installed well) and you will see what they accomplish...

  10. #10
    this would be a title NimpoCub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose Calf Molester 58
    Just quit your searching, do your fixun and go fly!!!
    You keep pondering, and it will be 2011 before you are back in the air!
    I'm still flyin, I'll drag the wings into the shop next month sometime (first sign of ice over), just getting my plans/ideas/facts aligned in my head first. Try to be helpful, 'eh George?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair
    they are named wrong... they don"t "seal" at all, there is a small gap always....
    OK, then if we call 'em flap gap smoothies would that be more accurate?
    Can ya explain just what they're trying to accomplish? I don't seem to have it right.

    Anyone??
    Thanks!
    Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
    200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"

  11. #11
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Logan,

    I've never flown a Super Cub with flap gap seals. The Cessna has "semi fowler" flaps, and the gap seals basically defeat part of the function of those flaps. I have no idea if they would negatively affect a Super Cub.

    My response was to your generic statement that "Since FLAP gap seals are such a GoodThing"

    Steve,

    In case you hadn't noticed, SuperCub.org seems to engage a lot of chat about airmachines other than Super Cubs......

    I realized Logan was talking a Super Cub, not Cessna.

    But-for what its worth, flap gap seals on a Cessna are really a dumb idea.

    MTV
    Likes ron liked this post

  12. #12
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Just ribbin' ya Mike. Super Cubs do come originally with flap gap seals. I have no experience on the Cessna flap gap seals but a good friend of mine installed them on his 180 and hated them. I removed them and he was a happy camper.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  13. #13
    wirsig's Avatar
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    Nimpo Cub,
    how'd you get AK58's quote header to say moose calf molester 58?

  14. #14
    SJ's Avatar
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    I've heard that aileron gap seals really help the C-180 at low speeds (and I assume 182's also). I've been in that "hmm the yoke is not working" state a few times in the 180...

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  15. #15
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Put the tape on aileron gap seals on a 170B and it took that scary helpless feeling out of the cross wind landing. Gave a lot better aileron feel. Craig said it was the best $100 he spent on an airplane. Put them on an early model 172 with the same result.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  16. #16
    this would be a title NimpoCub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol' sittin-in-his-frame
    Nimpo Cub,
    how'd you get AK58's quote header to say moose calf molester 58?
    When you quote someone, you can edit anything you like.
    It's the "honor system" to leave it alone.
    Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
    200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"

  17. #17
    this would be a title NimpoCub's Avatar
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    Well I got ONE email with some good info!
    Usually the rest of you are good for answers.
    Seems I'm not the only one who doesn't know exactly!

    It's an interesting yack anyway.
    Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
    200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"

  18. #18
    JayH's Avatar
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    On this topic, I'm looking for the Part# for the Piper aluminum flap gap seals. I can't find it in my parts manual. Would anyone have it? Also, has anyone flown a super cub without these flap seals on? Curious about the flight characteristics each way. Thanks for the help.
    J

  19. #19
    JayH's Avatar
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    Brad, I went back and read your post, anyone else with a pirep on no flap gap seals. Thanks.

  20. #20

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    I bought flap seals from Mike Butterfield in Yakima.
    After recover, I flew my cub without the seals. It felt a little bit different until I pulled full flaps, it pitched nose down pretty hard. Woke me up, almost made me pee my pants.
    I have a little extra flap deflection, stock might not be so bad. I'd put the seals on.

  21. #21
    JayH's Avatar
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    Thanks for the response Carey.
    J

  22. #22
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Years ago I was in a hurry to fly a fresh rebuild and did the first several hours without the flap-gap 'seals'. I honestly do not recall there being any good or bad about it.

    That airplane eventually got the flap-gap 'seals' and micro VG's, and is a fine flyer. That airplane flew hands off the very first flight with a by-the-book rigging job. I really felt lucky with how well that bird turned out........owner had it upside down in about 2 years......landed short of the pavement on purpose and had a bit of brakes on when he rolled up onto the pavement edge.....

    Elevator gap seals REALLY work, and are an easy job on a grey airplane with grey duct tape or a white airplane with white duct tape. Simply set the elevators to full down and apply the tape evenly between the elevator and stabilizer.............. MUCHO BIEN elevator authority over stock......and even without tail vg's

  23. #23
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins
    I really felt lucky with how well that bird turned out........owner had it upside down ......
    Isn't that annoying to try to make everything so nice, and done to last for 20 years..... and then half of them get wrecked within a couple years!
    I had one 180 with 13 hours after rebuild they had on its nose on pavement, a nice full curl...

    seems like they never dinged them before rebuild and shiny

  24. #24
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Duh!! I finally figured out what you guys are referring to as "gap seals" on a Cub.....

    I was trying to envision some add-on or STC, or modification, NOT the dang fairings that were born there.

    MTV

  25. #25
    this would be a title NimpoCub's Avatar
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    OK!!
    Alrighty then... so now, Mr Mike, can you offer your experienced opinion on the whatever-you-callits that try to keep the air on the proper side of the wing (the flight control thingies)?
    Flaps, ailerons, elevators?
    Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
    200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"

  26. #26
    CubDriver218's Avatar
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    Are flap gap seals that great? I do not have them on my 12. I have extended flaps and have been wondering about these gap seals everyone talks about. I haven't noticed any adverse effects of not having them installed on my wing. Any additional info is appreciated.
    Are they pricey? Where can I get them?
    What is the big difference in handling?
    Fast or slow, always low, freedom of flight soothes the soul.

  27. #27
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Deblack
    Are flap gap seals that great? I do not have them on my 12. I have extended flaps ....
    you may NOT be able to add them if you have the day & Night -12 extended flaps(which are -18 ailerons donors)..

    that stc has you put a left -18 aileron on right wing as a flap, and the twist in it is backwards to wing twist so flap outboard tip ends up being 3/4" wrong... to compensate for that the stc has you bend the flap hangers to get railing edge semi where it looks good.. but that in turn raises and lowers front edge of flap.. so trying to line up a gap seal is not fun... and stc says don't install them..

    to get around this you need to build your flaps with the proper twist in them... then flap gap seals will fit properly

    Boodie built me 2 sets with proper twist... Airframes unfortunately built last set to the blueprints which gives the wrong twist, so i need to un-rivet and re-twist them then re-rivet....

  28. #28

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    The 18 flap is an airfoil blocking the gap may not be good. it becomes a drag flap at full flaps . But at 10 degrees it produces lift notice the diff in the false spare in front of the flap much diff than the aileron how many of you out there have 12's that have flaps with aileron false spar in front of it ?? now the " WING FLAP FAIRING" directs the airflow over the nose of the flap and keeping the flap from stalling when you fly a cub without the "WING FLAP FAIRING " at full flaps the air is much more disturbed going through the gap between the flap and wing.
    Steve C

  29. #29
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Super Cubs came from the factory with flap gap seals.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Boodie built me 2 sets with proper twist... Airframes unfortunately built last set to the blueprints which gives the wrong twist, so i need to un-rivet and re-twist them then re-rivet....[/quote]

    What is the correct twist I have the l/e skins off mine and can set the twist when I re skin them

  31. #31
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip

    What is the correct twist I have the l/e skins off mine and can set the twist when I re skin them
    3/8" up at outboard of each...
    but you can also set wing up to proper twist, then just use strait edges under wing so bottom of controls lay flat on strait edge,

    since that's your final goal anyway, to have them same as bottom of wing all the way when finished

  32. #32

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    a "GAP SEAL" is not the same as a "WING FLAP FAIRING So Steve P. are you talking about the wing flap fairing that comes stock on the PA-18 i don't know of any airplanes that have gap seals on the flaps?? i have seen them on the Stabilizer/Elevator Gap seal ?? I think maule's have them on the Stabilizer's/ Elevator's ?
    Steve C.

  33. #33

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    Did anybody get a chance to put some of CubCrafters elevator gap seals on their J-3 floatplane, could you give an opinion?
    If you get lost while flying, don't try hail a cop. Pick up the first railroad you find and hug it until you get somewhere.

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    I am going to take another look. I simply do not recall Super Cub flap gap seals.

    On the Cessna, they (the flap gap seals) are designed to increase cruise speed, at the expense of slow speed operation. In the olden days, the STC holder would tell you that.

    On a Cub, I think, without any facts to back me up, that you will have more effective flaps and ailerons without gap seals. That would not be true on the early non-Frieze style Cub ailerons, but those did not survive to the Super Cub.

    I flew a single seat Taylorcraft with and without stabilizer gap seals - the difference was dramatic - I mean dramatic!

  35. #35
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    It seals the gap so that is what I always called it. Have seen the same thing on ailerons and it was called a gap seal as well. Different terminology I guess.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  36. #36

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    A true gap seal would stop all airflow between bottom of wing and top of control surface. A fairing would allow most of the air to flow. I have only flown one Cub with true seals on the aileron, and that one needed VGs badly. The Taylorcraft I flew used heavy clear tape to seal the elevators and stabilizers - with the tape it was aerobatically quick; without them it was sort of ho-hum. I am not sure how they would allow slower approach speed, but then the Taylorcraft was not designed for slow flight - it was designed for advanced aero.

  37. #37
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner
    ...I am not sure how they would allow slower approach speed...
    stab/elevator gap seals provide increased pitch authority power off.

  38. #38

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    Piper Drawing 12795 and 12795-1 Faring -flaps.

  39. #39
    kiwicubber's Avatar
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    We are rebuilding a PA-18A-150 and have found the flap fairings in amongst our pile of bits. I find it a bit hard to see from the parts manual and drawing for part #12795 where they go, under or over the fabric?
    Bill and Neroli.
    www.supercub.co.nz

  40. #40
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwicubber View Post
    We are rebuilding a PA-18A-150 and have found the flap fairings in amongst our pile of bits. I find it a bit hard to see from the parts manual and drawing for part #12795 where they go, under or over the fabric?
    Over the fabric.

    Drill and screw top first. Put a scotch bright pad between flap and it to set gap as you drill lower holes

    You can also put them on after fabric and tape over them and the paint wing and all in one step.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

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