best technique when landing hot!

[OVEREASYGUY]

I landed at my place yesterday a little hot 6 knot tail wind - full flaps and pretty much used up all my runway. It kept floating - I kept my 3 point stance and figured that would lead to the most drag. I was wondering if perhaps instead pulling up the flaps and picking up the tail so my wheels got on the ground and then use the brakes might have worked better? What do you guys think?
cliff in Maine

[Calvin Brandt]

What your describing is a wheel landing. I wheel land most of the time but I would recommend using flaps and getting speed down as slow as you can. Flaps do slow you down. Getting the wheels on the ground will slow you down. When the tail drops then apply brakes only if needed. Applying brakes without tail on the ground can cause you to bring tail up and strike your prop on the ground. Question. What is reason for down wind landing?
Cal

[aktango58]

short strip???

Go around

land into the wind

if not possible, re-evaluate why you are landing there with current conditions, (factor if I bend the plane).

Proceed as decided.

The approach you describe has been successful, and has also cost a few planes...

[SJ]

Cliff, this was covered in your private pilot training:

1. Land into the wind

2. Slow the aircraft to proper approach speed.

3. Go around if the conditions are not correct or you are unable to achieve the proper speed / glide.

Might be something to discuss/practice with your instructor on your flight review.

sj

[S2D]

Wheel landing, stick forward and lots of brakes,

Good News----You'll stop right where you applied lots of brakes
Bad News-----Your airplane will look just like the one in your avatar



(but hey, we all make an occasional downwind landing, nothing wrong with figuring out the best way to accomplish it. Just realize the risks)

[FdxLou]

Cliff

If you are not smart enough to go around then FLY the plane onto the ground, because, yes it will float with a tailwind.

As I see it, you described everything NOT to do on a downwind landing.
Get your head out of your a@# before you bend metal or worse yet cause injury....sorry but I can't be as pc and candy coat things as others here. My aviation training won't allow it.

Safe flying,

Lou

[Gary Reeves]

Six knots!

Isn't some of this kinda strong advice for such a light breeze?

Perhaps some training should involve light and variable conditions?

[aktango58]

Gary,

you may be correct...

But we all have that strip that we can land at if the wind is just right, but will kill us if not...

Sounds like he almost munched on the end, so was the approach speed AND wind bad... maybe.

My approach was to get out and think it over. I happened to be in the back seat once when an inexperienced, (read idiot that would not listen to the instructor) tried to save a landing that floated past the go around point on a runway...

Just so you know, it sucked!

[Skip]

I landed at my place yesterday a little hot 6 knot tail wind - full flaps and pretty much used up all my runway. It kept floating - I kept my 3 point stance and figured that would lead to the most drag. I was wondering if perhaps instead pulling up the flaps and picking up the tail so my wheels got on the ground and then use the brakes might have worked better? What do you guys think?
cliff in Maine

Go find a good instructor and learn to fly again

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Cliff,
I disagree with you landing technique of the last few years. You have a great airplane as I was lucky enough to experience at the WAD last week.
You fly an extremely tight pattern with what I guess to be about 15 MPH of extra speed. This is too tight and too fast. You slip ALL of your entry to landings but pull the slip out 25 feet agl. At that time you push nose over and gain more speed to the flare. I guess you are touching down at 70-75 mph and transition into a wheelie.
Your argument is that your strip landing from the north with tall trees requires this entry. I disagree

When I landed your airplane at the WAD I extended my entry went for the new sucker hole to the north and had her slowed down and established before the WAD. Yes my pattern was not super tight but it worked for me. Your airplane got into a great sink but was easily controlled with bursts of power. I landed before the hangar and stopped in 100 feet with little to no brakes. I could have honked her on early and dropped the flaps then onto the brakes for a super short but no reason to do so. All this with light and variable winds.
I suggest you get some training in flying your airplane slow and going back to the basics. I believe it will all come together for you if you do so. Tim Hodgkins is the master of the PA11 slip over at Pushaw with his short strip and trees at both ends. Go have Tim show you how to slow down your landings as you have all the tools to do so.
You will enjoy your airplane much better and become more confident.
Good Luck and great seeing you last week.
John

[DW]

All very good advice I have nothing to add but this we all want to say Cliff IS not Cliff WAS.

DW

[FdxLou]

Good advise Daisy...

BTW, are you going to OK18?

Lou

[HydroCub]

May I suggest we always remember a simple concept an old timer told me too many years ago: YOU CAN'T STOP AN AIRPLANE THAT'S NOT ON THE RUNWAY SURFACE.

Applies to a Cub..... and any other aircraft you might fly.

I would have put the mains on with forward stick the second I felt the "float" and used brakes aggressively if I was certain I had distance to stop. Otherwise, a split second decision to take-off (surface go-around) again and land into the wind.... hopefully obstacle and terrain permitting for a safe go-around.

If a downwind landing is required: Hit the end of the runway two-point and use aggressive braking. Hopefully no potholes..!!

.

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Hi Lou,
I am afraid not in the cards this year. I need to get an annual and get my Maine Camp up and running.
I am putting all my eggs in the JC basket.
Say hello to all I will keep in touch
John

[aktango58]

I would have put the mains on with forward stick the second I felt the "float" and used brakes aggressively if I was certain I had distance to stop. Otherwise, a split second decision to take-off (surface go-around) again and land into the wind.... hopefully obstacle and terrain permitting for a safe go-around.

If a downwind landing is required: Hit the end of the runway two-point and use aggressive braking. Hopefully no potholes..!!



.[/quote]

You forgot: see yourself listed by Flip Flop...

For many landings, this is just bad advice. Not meaning to be argumentative, but your solution screams "make a bad approach worse".

There seems to be a much more controlled option. We all should use the safe way first. All of us need to go around once in a while. It is when we attempt to save a landing that we get into trouble!

[behindpropellers]

Cliff-

I suggest finding a very good glider pilot and have them explain the words "power curve" before you kill yourself.

Tim

[Tim]

Cliff, I bet you were landing from the end with no trees and a 6kt tailwind.
With that much wind, why didn't you land over the trees into the wind. If your runway is 1500ft with that much wind you should stop in the middle of it. Like the others said get a tail wheel instructor with alot of time and take him to you're place, he'll show you how to do it.

Tim

[bob turner]

I am sure glad you are all friends.

[Widebody]

You forgot: see yourself listed by Flip Flop...

For many landings, this is just bad advice. Not meaning to be argumentative, but your solution screams "make a bad approach worse".

Here's the part you missed.
If a downwind landing is required: Hit the end of the runway two-point and use aggressive braking. Hopefully no potholes..!!

Hydro explained exactly how to do it.

Hydro also mentioned: I would have put the mains on with forward stick the second I felt the "float" and used brakes aggressively if I was certain I had distance to stop.

Here again Hydro describes exactly what needs to be done (in this situation).

This is nowhere near bad advice. It's exactly what needs to be done in the situation described.

Not being argumentative here either, just clearing the air .

I think Cliff gets the point. He was fast and never should have let it float.
But downwind landings will occur and you better know how to deal with them.
Good Luck Cliff.

Brad

[OVEREASYGUY]

I don't like landing from the north since I have 50 foot plus trees to drop over - often I gain too much speed and run out of runway 4 out of five landings from the north I do end up aborting.

I've landed from the south with a 12 knot tail wind and touched down with a ground speed of 70 mph and was able to stop without radical braking. This time I got sloppy and didn't touch down at the very beginning - however with only a 6 knot tail wind I figured i'd just keep the power off and make it work. Then it kept on floating.

I have never aborted a landing at my place from the south and don't intend to. The problem is if you don't make it back out over the 50 foot trees - you are going to be in bad shape. And I sure wouldn't want to be climbing out with a tail wind.

John - all of my landings at your place last weekend were sloppy - and I slipped only because I was hoping Jeff might get a cool picture - that's not how I usually fly an approach.

From your comments am I to assume that what I should have done is as follows: landed with full flaps - done a wheel landing and pulled the flaps up as soon as I touched down and then romp on the brakes.

Ok now you guys and bash me some more - I love a good bashing!
cliff in Maine

[aktango58]

would you mind if I buy life insurance on you????


The fallacy that you will not ever abort because of the trees will some day bite you a big one.

There is no need to land with a tail wind, coming over 50' trees with 1,500' in an 11-

AS said before, learn to fly the correct speeds, stable approaches and you will have a much more safe time, and more options will be available when unexpected things happen

[KingCub]

Rules of thumb that I use for mountain flying (obviously applicable for any short one-way strips):

Each 2 kts of tailwind results in about 10% increase in T.O. or landing distance.
(Conversely, 9kts of headwind results in 10% decrease in T.O. or landing distance.)


10% increase in landing speed results in 20% increase in landing distance.

Conclusion: on a short strip do everything possible to avoid landing fast with a tail wind.

[JP]

I really like Daisy's suggestion about making an appointment with Tim H. to spend some time at Pushaw flying in and out of the "back yard". I think you would really enjoy it. I had a great time learning to fly Cubs there. Tim is a great teacher.

[SJ]

Cliff,

Regarding "bashing" the fact is, there are people here who care about you. I know, it may not seem like it sometimes.

We (largely) are not bashing, just trying to get you to see the benefit of more conservative flying behavior. The long term benefit - i.e. your longevity.

But, we also care about ourselves, and our freedoms. So when people do things that might further restrict what we enjoy (by potentially becoming a media focus) we are a little turned off by that - at least most of us are.

Every time somebody screws up in GA, even if they are not dinking around, it's another nail in our coffin.

There is sometimes a fine line between safe and enjoyable flying (as we see it) and attitudes and activities that endanger our flying freedom, and sometimes our lives.

I think most folks who know you would agree that we want you walking on our side of that line.

sj

[behindpropellers]

Guess you don't remember this:

Control Airspeed with Pitch and descent with power.


Again....understanding the "power curve" will bring everything to light. Tim Kings rules are excellent but understanding "power curve" will let you understand it so you know WHY.

[fobjob]

Always keep a few rolls of toilet paper in the cockpit.....
1. for the obvious reason.....
2. makes a good mouse detector.....and saves your rib cord from destruction...
3. you can huck it out the window over the strip, and it unwinds and floats down to the ground, and lays out on the ground, revealing what direction the wind is blowing...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
And biodegradable, no less....

[aktango58]

Cliff,

Regarding "bashing" the fact is, there are people here who care about you. I know, it may not seem like it sometimes.

We (largely) are not bashing, just trying to get you to see the benefit of more conservative flying behavior. The long term benefit - i.e. your longevity.

But, we also care about ourselves, and our freedoms. So when people do things that might further restrict what we enjoy (by potentially becoming a media focus) we are a little turned off by that - at least most of us are.

Every time somebody screws up in GA, even if they are not dinking around, it's another nail in our coffin.

There is sometimes a fine line between safe and enjoyable flying (as we see it) and attitudes and activities that endanger our flying freedom, and sometimes our lives.

I think most folks who know you would agree that we want you walking on our side of that line.

sj

VERY well spoken!

[StewartB]

A 6kt breeze on the tail is not automatically a cause for concern. Airplanes don't float more with a breeze on the tail, either. A pilot is expected to compensate for the wind. Your glide slope looks different in calm conditions compared to a headwind. And so it goes in a tailwind. Make the adjustment and hit the spot.

The statement that you land downwind to avoid landing over 50' trees is a bigger indication of a need for instruction. 50' trees aren't much of an obstacle and should be easily manageable. Particularly with 6kts on the nose.

Stewart

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Hi Cliff,
I do not bash you I sense that you have something you are nervous about.
It is in your own comments that you do not like landing over the 50 foot trees on a 1500 foot long strip because you get to fast.

I have flown with you and I have seen you for years now that your landings are too fast. Your cub has the tools to land short or for our most learned brethren land adequately in 700 feet. You need to master power management and when it comes together it is a great feeling. I have seen you ground handle your airplane and you have the ability to get it to steer on one tire and then alternate so that is not your issue.
Tim H at Pushaw is a great tailwheel instructor that teaches power management into his challenging strip "The Backyard". I suggest him as an alternate to Tom O as for some reason you do not seem to get what Tom is trying to teach. I in no way cast any dispersions on Toms ability he is a high time instructor and good at what he does.

The procedure you ask about is from Damian Delgazio. It however was taught to me during his direct instruction on power management. I fear if I take it out of context it will not be the correct thing to do. I would feel more comfortable if you went down south and took several hours with Damian.
When we were low and slow and were feet off the ground in ground effect as we passed over the threshold Damian had me flare the airplane and as soon as the mains touched we would plant the mains by dropping the flaps out and alternate brake aggressively. This is all a combination procedure that should be taught to you!!!!!!!!

Cliff this is not meant to bash you far from it. If you become a statistic it affects us all.
My 2 Cents
Good Luck and Fly Safe
John

[S2D]

After typing a long dissertation for this thread, I $h!T canned it cause it can be summed up pretty briefly.

1. A lot of it does look like Cliff Bashing. (maybe deservedly)

2. The only thing Cliff probably did right was to not go around.

3. (and this is for Cliff) If you are going to land at a one way strip, and do it downwind, you better learn all there is to learn about downwind landings.

First , Airspeed is critical, learn how to control it

Second, have an abort point on final then practice it.

Third, take Hydrocubs advice and learn how to use use braking and wheel landings to get yourself stopped in case you misjudged your approach. (but know there is a good chance of putting the aircraft on its back).

Fourth, If you don't already have a well calculated spot on the runway that you can safely make a make a go around from, don't decide at the last minute to try one. Better to slide into the trees at slow speed that hit them half way up at full power.

Other than that, find a good instructor, make sure your insurance and everything are up to date, have a good shoulder harness and load your aircraft to the rear.

[aktango58]

Ok SD2,

I will bite.

Why not go around?

I suggest getting out of there and starting over so to control the approach to avoid the fast float.

I will state that the go around with the trees ahead needs to be initiated early into the runway to get enough altitude, unless he can turn out to the side to get away from the trees.

But when over the fence and hot, take the extra speed and start up and out!

If not the correct solution, please explain why.

And is a 1500' strip with 50' trees really a one way strip for a PA-11?

[S2D]

Ok SD2,

I will bite.

Why not go around?

Only because he had no plan to start with, floated half way down the runway, had a tailwind etc etc. At the point he would probably have made the decision to go around, would have been about the time realized he was going to hit the trees.

I don't have the luxury of knowing his airplane, his ability on doing go arounds, how heavy he was, his runway setup etc, but if he went in with the mindset he wasn't going to go around, changing his mind when it was to late could have been disastrous


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...03X00978&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...04X01496&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...20X00970&key=1

this isn't to say I'm not advocating go arounds, simply that you better be preparred when going in under unfavorable conditions, or any conditions for that matter.and Cliff wasn't,

[behindpropellers]

I think the biggest problem here all stems back to basic flying skills. The problem was presented long before the decision to go around or not was made.

Anybody that is landing 10-20% fast AND downwind is always going to be out of control.

[Gary Fields]

This topic caught my eye, "Best Technique when landing hot". I thought for sure the first reply would be, "Don't land Hot".

I practice a technique of maintaining 55 MPH IAS all the way around, from take off, through pattern, into approach and slow down a little more on short approach. It takes a while to do a complete pattern but the practice is great, to feel the plane in the level flight portion of the pattern and recognize the sight picture and stability is great, and then as someone else said, maintain that pitch attitude and reduce power to descend. I have landed my Husky with up to a 10 MPH tailwind, on a long grass strip, to be able to practice and recognize the affect in case I was in a one way required environment. One other thing that I practice is to look at IAS and Ground Speed and make an effort to determine landing distance in relation to these factors.

Training and practice are crucial to success, as others have already said and I agree you need more training and always fly like it matters. Your admission to flying sloppy is not acceptable practice in my opinion. Sloppy is not for flying, too often the results are catastrophic.

[Rob]

After typing a long dissertation for this thread, I $h!T canned it ...

That's funny stuff... I've done that several times since the start of the thread. I think the whole thing is a lot of excited hype and hoopla, but I admittedly have no personal knowledge of Cliff, his flying skills, airplane, strip, or even more importantly, his communication skills...

I hardly see a 1500' strip with a treed end to be a "one wayer", with any reasonable amount of training...

Nor do I hardly see landing with a 6kt tail wind to be "death defying" or necessarily a poor choice, in the proper situations, and again with any amount of reasonable training...

I would venture to say that a huge portion of the working pilots on this site land or take off on a regular basis with a d/w component. Kudos to Cliff for at least asking how to do it better or trying to learn, what and when to do, too bad he just didn't take it up in person with a flight instructor qualified in what he's trying to accomplish...

Cliff, the way I see it you asked a question that you knew would get you flamed to some extent, but then might (and did) stimulate a good thread. Sounds to me like you just got lazy and accepted a situation you really didn't have to. You knew you were fast, you knew you were d/w, and you knew you didn't posses the training / skill to land from the opposite end, but none of that was your question. Hydro answered your question way early on... By the tone of your post it sounds more like decision making skills are the culprit, rather than actual flying skills, but that's the problem with open forums, they leave something to be desired in the communication department...You didn't ask "why did I get into this situation", you asked "what does everyone else do when they get here" and don't let anyone here bull$#!t you, they have all been there at some point....
Because the truth is sooner or later everyone is going to fly into a situation where the wind component / direction, on the ground is different than the wind component / direction at treetop. I suspect you knew that you screwed the pooch, just fine...

Myself... I would have pinned it on 2pt., dumped the flaps, hit the brakes, and kept the tail down as best I could with the throttle if, I was beyond the go around point, indecision has probably bent a lot more metal than mediocre flying skills when sh!t hits the fan... applying any throttle while approaching the end of the road will be very counter intuitive... but it can keep your prop out of the weeds...

BTW, where'd the PA11 come into play? I thought Cliff flew some hopped up, slotted wing affair?

Take care, Rob

[FdxLou]

There is sound advise here coming from many credible sources.
I can only hope that Cliff is reading this and will take it to heart.

I think threads like this are important, as it gives us all a chance to reflect on our flying styles and techniques. We all need to constantly strive to improve our skills as aviators. Going back to basics, as suggested for Cliff, is something we all need to do from time to time.

I am headed out the door to fly a few patterns at 50-55 from takeoff to touchdown.

Thanks to all for the good suggestions....

Lou

[OLDCROWE]

Cliff...

May not help you but it helped me and maybe others.

I'm pretty darn new, (just had my first bi-annual a couple of weeks ago) and for a long time (and still do on occasion, especially if nervous) had/have problems with too fast of approach speeds. I suffer from a significant fear of middle age induced low level stall/splat syndrome which can be triggered by my infamously loud stall HORN.

Determined; I watched, read, listened and then worked up a practice methodology to gain confidence in slow approaches. Mostly, I used comfort with Sparkey's stabilized approach speed factors as my goal (they were the only ones that made sense to my pea brain).

So what I did (if FAST approach speeds are the real issue like John observed) is develop a drill.

On the way to a good sized (nice long run way) quiet airport PRACTICE STALL RECOVERY.

Land, if the manager is there stop for a POP and tell them what you're up to…Practice

Set your altimeter to field elevation.

Climb to a safe altitude for stall recovery, I used 1000’ msl.

Zero your altimeter, (pretend you’re in a jump plane, not that I would ever do that crap) so that your current elevation reads ZERO.

No using “zero” as the pretend field elevation, climb to the modified standard pattern elevation.

Now fly the pattern with the spare 1000’ under you. (Note: if anyone was around when you landed you already made up a good story so they won’t think you an idiot).

Use an aiming point for your approaches, albeit further out than normal (I used the 500 foot blocks at the departure end or an intersection which worked best) but use your normal site picture out the window for DW and B (just tell yourself that sure is a narrow runway down there).

Make regular approach after regular approach each time adjusting only one thing either distance from the runway, entry altitude or entry speed until achieved my goal of becoming comfortable with the end result of arriving at my target (“zero” altitude directly over my aim point) in a stable decent ready for flare (I even flared a few times but that was really weird without ground effect)… at a touch above real stall speed for the configuration you are in.

For me, I started each approach with the same entry point of MFDW with 75MPG air speed and progressed to 70DW-65B-60F (speed taken when stable just after turning) then I kept whittling off a little more and a little more until I was comfortable at 65DW-60B-55F and then 60-55-50 (but if my spacing is/was not spot here it did not work real good for me without correction (power or slip) unless I was making a short approach and then it was better).

Ok, fly away from the airport and come back. Land get another POP (and buy the airport guy one this time you cheap SOB) and maybe some fuel. Then I repeated the drill with a 500’ “zero” then back to field elevation and finally a bunch of practice with the real ground under me.

I have done this drill for upwind and downwind landings and it along with practicing spot landings with cones or 5 gallon buckets on a big grass strip really helped me.

I did one more thing with the practice approach (but from higher than 1000’) I took it all the way down on approach until she stalled on final in landing configuration so that I would know the feeling with a runway site picture in front of me and that was a confidence builder.

I also did a drill where I set up marks to practice clearing the infamous 50 foot tree in all aspects… on approach, departure, and go around. With this I set the altimeter “zero” so 50’ above field elevation gave me a both hands together reading for a quick glance. Then I set cones for touchdown and stopping drills… I started this adventure on dew wet grass (forgiving) and progressed into better (riskier) stopping conditions.

Lastly,

I STILL HATE DOWNWIND LANDINGS…. Having traffic last year at Reklaw running downwind on that big beautiful green roller coaster runway ruined the flying for me… after a long cross country I had to land downwind on an unknown strip with spectators everywhere and low and behold I was fast and long so didn't get stopped I was in the next county so that got me to work up the above and it helped greatly.

[bob turner]

I don't know Cliff, but I do know that I have been fast on final. I see good advice above, especially the bit about either going around or getting some wheels on the ground - but I don't understand bashing a guy honestly asking for advice. Instructors no longer use derision and abuse to teach - they use positive reinforcement. Maybe we should, too. Opinion.

[behindpropellers]

I don't know Cliff, but I do know that I have been fast on final. I see good advice above, especially the bit about either going around or getting some wheels on the ground - but I don't understand bashing a guy honestly asking for advice. Instructors no longer use derision and abuse to teach - they use positive reinforcement. Maybe we should, too. Opinion.

Bob-

I see your point.

The problem is that every time Cliff posts one of these "questions" I sit at my computer shaking my head. I wonder what happened to decision making 101 and basic flight training.

This particular problem is not a "new" problem for him....it is just a festering mistake he has always made and it almost bit him. Watch some of his videos on youtube. No guy should ever need to slip a supercub equiped with extended wings and flaps coupled with a slotted wing.

Quite honestly, I don't know how he hasn't crashed yet.

Steve hit the nail on the head on this:

But, we also care about ourselves, and our freedoms. So when people do things that might further restrict what we enjoy (by potentially becoming a media focus) we are a little turned off by that - at least most of us are.

Every time somebody screws up in GA, even if they are not dinking around, it's another nail in our coffin.

Sorry for being blunt about the subject.

Tim

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Bob you need to meet my instrument instructor. Before we really got into the meat of the Jepp book I thought the thing was designed to hit me off the back of the head without leaving marks I hated being under the hood and not see it coming. This alone taught me situational awareness....That is a dumb answer will get you whacked off the head so I used to be way ahead of the power curve cause I anticipated it coming
Cliffs questions are not out of line. Those that know Cliff know he is opinionated and loves a little turmoil talk but he needs some more instruction on slow flight.
Cliff can not feel the airplane and is worried about slowing it down. He believes he will stall it so he remains coming in hot.
Cliff is a good friend and I believe he would enjoy himself much more if he was able to really control his landings. I do not see him doing so until he gets this instruction and I feel he is having bad habits getting ingrained causing him much more training time.

Cliff is a smart fellow it will all come in time with good training.
John