Marty Helms supposely spent 10 grand with 3 grand left to get his privates pilot license. I don't know anyone who has spent that kind of money even here in Alaska.
Terry
Delusions of success in the aviation field are a reliable signal that the next economic crash is imminent....
The national average to complete a private pilot's certificate is approximately 68 hours of flight time.
Do the math, this guy isn't far off "average".
MTV
What are you paying for airplane and instructor Mike. $13,000 comes out to $190 an hour.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
In the NY Metro area, 190 an hour is probably close, although for dual in a 172. Might even be a touch higher.
Flying is always the first to go. As my IA friend says every time he can't get paid; "They need their Chevys, but they don't need their Cessnas"
Rich
Comm/Inst/CFIA/CFII...Now a happy Sport Pilot
Looks like they both need to shop around.
You can rent a C-150 here for around $50 an hour. Throw in another 20 an hour for the instructor.
http://skyparkaviatorsclub.com/skypa...t/aircraft.php
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
The other thing that adds to the cost is that flight schools charge for ground instruction on every lesson. When I taught for a small school the owner did not do that. The result is 1 hour in the airplane usually takes 2 hours of the instructor's time. The big schools are trying to recoup some of that money by charging for pre and post flight time.
The only time I would charge for ground time was when reviewing cross country planning for the solo cross county. That usually amounted to an hour out of all the training.
Rich
Comm/Inst/CFIA/CFII...Now a happy Sport Pilot
Originally Posted by Richgj3
And why not???? There's a lot more to learning to fly than spending time in an airplane, and an airplane makes a lousy classroom. Should a flight school provide ground instruction for free?
Traditionally, a large contributing factor in much of the poor quality flight training is instructors and flight school owners who are more interested getting the ol' hobbs meter going at the expense of providing a comprehensive well though out approach to teaching someone to fly. That's not to say that every single lesson needs to have hours of ground time, but if the student is walking out to the airplane without a clear idea of what you're going to to for that lesson, where you're going to do it, what will be the same as last time, what will be new, and what's expected on the new stuff, you've done a disservice o the student.
A true life example of this, a few years back, the outfit I was flying for had no in house training department, but made a reasonably generous amount of money available for the pilots to get training to stay legal and proficient. I went to the local flying school and signed up for a block of time with a twin and a multi-engine instructor. The guy showed up, late of course, and basically said lets go fly. Just like that. He really didn't know anything more about me than my name, he had no idea of my experience level, or recency of experience, or really why I was there and what I was looking for. All he wanted to do was get the motors running and start logging multi time. He seemed a little put out when I suggested that some classroom time might be appropriate before we took off. It goes without saying that the ground instruction was a rather half hearted affair, as was the subsequent flight "lesson". I didn't go back for more of the same. Shame, really, because if the flight school had been able to provide anything resembling professional services, they would have received a substantial amount of business.
It's worth noting that the at the airlines I've flown for since then, there is *always* a preflight briefing and a post flight briefing, before a simulator or flight session. Seems that they understand that you don't want to be paying thousands of dollars per hour for a simulator, or even more for an airplane, while the students and instructors fumble around, trying to figure out what the lesson will be that day.
Why should a private pilot student expect a lower level of professionalism?
I didn't say it was a bad idea. It's just different now than it was 25-40 years ago.
My boss at the time did not discourage ground training. He just didn't think we should charge for it. That's probably why he is no longer in business.
Rich
Comm/Inst/CFIA/CFII...Now a happy Sport Pilot
OK, that wasn't clear from your post. I don't get the idea that ground instruction shouldn't be billed, or that the instructor shouldn't be paid for it. I know the phenomena exists, I just can't fathom it.
I don't do much primary training anymore... but I tell the student to expect a minimum of 20 hours of "pay for" ground training and I promise to bill no more than 40 hours. I would estimate I eliminate at least 4-6 hours of flight training by being more thorough with ground training. My flight rate is $50 per hour and my ground rate is $40 per hour. I've found that making the students "cost" aware, they are more motivated to study and make best use of the flight/ground training. Also works to not start the training unless at least 75% of the funds are available. Nothing more frustrating than a student that runs out of money within 10 hours of getting their certificate. System seems to work for me... and I've been thanked for being an ogre about this. Oh yes, they don't get to solo until their PPC written is passed either.
Aviation has never recovered from rolling over in the 60s to the "if you can drive, you can fly" attitude. They dumbed down the skills and went after the money. Professionalism went out the door.
.
Steve,
We charge ~ $155 per hour. Our average to PPL is ~ 48 hours. There is also some ground instruction time there, so the average to completion is around $9 K.
My comment was that he's not THAT far off, if you do the math, compared to national averages. Note that the national averages are for FLIGHT training only.
Quoting ONLY flight training costs falls into the category of false advertising, in my opinion, but it happens. I talk to folks who say "Joe over there says I can do the PPL for $6K" And, I tell them to go to Joe and ask for a breakdown of those costs, and a list of any other costs that MIGHT be incurred.
I think $13 K is on the high side as well. The point is, however, that if you figure the national average, add in ground instruction as well as "miscellaneous" expenses, that may be realistic for a Part 61 school.
While 141 helps in the PPL, it REALLY makes a difference in the Commercial cert.
MTV
One time at a CFI refresher course I attended, the teacher asked what our income was while we were flight training. As most of the members of the group were young guys like I was at the time, we truthfully answered that it was nearly nil. He pointed out that cost clearly wasn't as big a factor as we all thought it was, or else we'd have never achieved our goals.
We are all way too sensitive to what we properly charge our students---I think it's the only industry where we race to the bottom in that regard.
I always told my PVT students that there would be a much higher proportion of ground time to flight time in the earlier stages of their training.
Interestingly, back when I was a full time CFI I used to tell PVT students to expect to spend roughly $3000. That was in 1985. Turns out that amount is now worth $6218 based on inflation since then. I bet instructor wages haven't kept up with that pace. Why is that?
Aviationinfo
One time at a CFI refresher course I attended, the teacher asked what our income was while we were flight training. As most of the members of the group were young guys like I was at the time, we truthfully answered that it was nearly nil. He pointed out that cost clearly wasn't as big a factor as we all thought it was, or else we'd have never achieved our goals.
We are all way too sensitive to what we properly charge our students---I think it's the only industry where we race to the bottom in that regard.
I always told my PVT students that there would be a much higher proportion of ground time to flight time in the earlier stages of their training.
Interestingly, back when I was a full time CFI I used to tell PVT students to expect to spend roughly $3000. That was in 1985. Turns out that amount is now worth $6218 based on inflation since then. I bet instructor wages haven't kept up with that pace. Why is that?
Aviationinfo
I think if a guy wants to learn how to fly he can figure out a way.
There are plenty of 172s and 150's just sitting around these days.
Tim
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
C172 around here is $84 and hour and $30-35 for the instructor. I swapped maintenance on my instructors C140A for instruction in the Clipper I had two partners in. Cathy paid $30 an hour, bought a computer program from Gleim and did the ground school on her own. We did about 80 hrs. worth of work on a friends Tri-Pacer in trade for Cathy using it for flight training. Couldn't find a primary tail dragger instructor in our area. Where there is a will there is a way. Most people around here have bought their own airplane to learn in. I guess I keep thinking of my early A&P job at a flight school where I made $5.50 an hour, C150s rented for $35 an hour wet and instruction was $10 an hour and it all went to the instructor.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
There are some methods of saving money people has not brought up. I joined an aero-club 5 years ago, and it cost me 3800$ total. Some allow you to prepurchase blocks of time during the winter (10 hour blocks) at discounts. Also some clubs where you are part owner of an airplane are a good way to to. Here at PABV, a share can be bought for 6K, $25 hourly maintanence fee x 70 hours = $1750, gas $3.50 x 9 gal x 70= 2250, $35 x 70(40 flight hours + 30 ground) hours= 2450, $70x12= $840 monthly fee, ground school $500 = $13,790
Two nice things about it is
1. You have a $6000 share in a plane
2. 25 hourly main + 31.5 fuel hour= 56.50 for each additional hour
This is assuming it takes 70 hours to get your privates.
Terry
I still teach basic flight instruction after 13 years of holding a CFI rating. I only take students who wish to learn to fly and pass on students who want to get a license. Those who want to fly don't have issues with the way I am paid or how much I charge. I am probably the most expensive CFI in the state. I do charge for ground time.
"Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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Fuel here from the distributor is over $5/gal.
Our rates a a bit more...
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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