I just purchased a PA-12 with the 0-320 and PA-18 extended gear. I would like to know from those people who have added flaps to their Cruisers how difficult it was to do. I am wondering if it is a job that can be done by someone who is moderately mechanically inclined but doesn't have alot of experience working on aircraft. Would I be crazy to attempt this mod?
Thanks for your help.
CC
It's really not that difficult. You need to be able to weld and do fabric work though. It's a lot easier if you do it during a complete rebuild when everything is apart. And of course you need an IA to sign it off.
If you don't want to do it bring it up to Vancouver, WA and I can do it for a reasonable price
Wait until you redo your fabric. No sense in tearing into things that aren't broken. Until then, slips will get you steeply to the runway. I'm looking forward to casting an eye on your new PA-12. :P
Recall this being the most challenging when I did my rebuild. Being a beginner didn't help either.As I remember there were errors in the drawings that added to the challenge. Fortunately I had a friend nearby that also had a 12 with the flaps. A few trips to his hanger cleared up any questions. After flying a nice supercub for more than 20 years I felt I should have the flaps. No regrets.!!!! My AI was pleased with the installation and the flaps have served me well with no problems for 8 years now.
Thanks for all the info does any one remember how long it took them and what the most difficult part was?
Hi Windy how are ya when we going flying?
CC
HA ! I'm a poor one to ask about "how long" it took. Entire rebuild was 15 YEARS. Working full time job, mostly out of town---road construction. Looking back now after 3 years of retirement I don't know how I got it done at all---mostly because of GOOD FRIENDS HELPING, especially Randy Rubbert of North Dakota. Will PM you. geezer Dan
Hi Brian,
Just heard that you got PA - 12 150.....Congratulations!! Is it still in Morgan or did you bring it back to your home strip??
As far as the Flap Mod, as Wendy stated, best saved for the re-cover time, more fun flying than working on it, as my 2 + years on the Pacer has taught me!!
The actual work isn't that demanding, and the pieces are available from several sources, just takes time & $$$.
If you get doan to OGD, stop in, as I am about a month away from starting the "break in" on the O-360.
John
Superpacer
PA22-20 180
N3023Z
Capt. C.
I think getting the placement for the pulleys on the fuselage, the height on the spar and alignment of the fairleads were all critical. If you get it wrong the flap cables or bellcranks will interfere with the aileron cables. I used Ron Sullivan's STC w/ Dakota Cub parts. Ron had some good advice on the alignment issue. I think getting all that correct will actually be easier with the wings on the aircraft, but like others said, it is a major project and you might as well do a recover on the wings while your at it. I think the time will be about the same. Can't give you a time estimate as it was part of my rebuild, so my answer would be one year. Just wish I had done it a long time ago. Don't think I've made more than 1 or 2 flap-0 landings since adding them.
A search of SC.org pull up some previous threads on this subject from a year or so back.
Regards
Chris
Now you have me thinking about doing it as mine is down for rebuild now. Anyone have an idea of the cost?
univair has a parts kit to give a start at $$Originally Posted by Skip
the drawings are wrong as mentioned.. so.....
done a few with fabric on... not a big deal or hard... you just split trailing edge fabric and don't cut too many rib stitches & lock last stitch, lob off ribs and convert false spar attaches on ribs. add a few inspection rings in bottom of wings on front of rear spar and mount hangers and bell cranks, lift tank if needed. attach false spars, and glue fabric & tape them... if you were careful & NEAT... the seam will be hidden below trailing edge flap gap seal and you won't have to touch up the paint even..... well you do need to cover and paint you shinny new flaps... not tooooooo much more work to slide ailerons out on a squared off wing and put the loooong flaps on....
more fun is welding pulley mounts & handle in a covered fuselage, be careful and TIG them... do a better job on them then required in drawings as they have a habit of ripping off at welds.. use a doubler mount plate on bolt tubes... look in the pulley positioning tool video below for example I think....
Cost: Wasn't too bad---but that was a long time ago. Got a pair of wrecked supercub wings at an auction for 50 bucks each--this provided MOST of the parts ; although one flap needed major surgury
Thanks for all the info everyone. I am getting the feeling from some of the PM"s that people have sent that this might be a job better left to someone that is a professional.
John,
How are ya? I can't wait to go for a rid in that Super Pacer. It will good to be back in the air again with ya again now that I have a new plane and yours is almost done. I will stop by and see ya.
CC
I called Univair and they have a parts kit to do the job, it is 3,800 but I think I am gonna do it. Now is the time with the plane apart and Univair said Ron Sullivan had the stc. You might be able to save a few bucks scrounging for parts. I wasn`t gonna do it but yall have pushed me over the edge. Anyone who has a 150 hp pa12 can you let me know how much it improved the short field performance. thanks
Skip,
Dakota cub has a parts kit for $2750. Give them a call it will save ya a few bucks.
CC
whoo Hoo thanks a bunch, I`m calling them tomorrow. Thats what makes this site so great
Skip: I don't know how much it improved things if you are looking for numbers. I'm not a very precise pilot. Am much more comfy having them available. Was just out on the skis with a 15 mph wind. The old 12 acted a lot like a Bell Jet Ranger--Very short TO and Landings--fun fun
There ya go Geezer my strip here is 1,200 ft with trees at one end and I want this airplane to get out really good. I can slip it in no problem but I want it to get out really well. If it gets out better than my 85 hp champ I will be pleased
My strip is 1300X80 @ 5000 ft. and my PA-12 does better on T/O and worse on landing than my PA-20 did. The differences I can think of are the flaps and I have more flight time in Pacers than Cruisers. So that is why I was interested in the flaps. The heel brakes might be a factor too.
CC
All I have flown the past 20 years have been taildraggers and all of them have had heel brakes except my biplane and it feels strange to not have heel brakes in it. I want something to get out like gangbusters
Does anyone have any idea how well a light 150 hp 12 will get out at sea level
Well, I did beat the guy in the C180 at the flyin last year, but I think he still had the beer kegs, generator and rest of the camping gear in the back.
Seriously, I have 74-52 prop, so would probably do better with something a little finer pitch. I figure on 350' - 400' w/ half fuel and just me on board. +/- 100# makes a big difference. Depends a lot on the surface too. Extended gear and big tires will help also because I think the -12 lacks about 6 degrees of AOI compared to the -18. So your more limited on the max AOA you can achieve on takeoff roll and have to make up for it with additional speed (distance) for same weights.
Chris
350 to 400 is great my short runway is 700 with an open end and my long one is 1000 with an open end. My champ would go in and out fine but I wanted a little more airplane.
There are a few 150hp 12's that show up to the Valdez Fly-In...they all get
off in the 100-150 range...land less that 200..with some in the 100 range...
Well I ordered the STC today from Ron Sullivan and the flap kit from Dakota Cub but I am wondering something. Dakota Cub says their kit stops at the butt rib and has no flap handle or cable. Where and how do you guys mount the flap handle. Thanks Skip
skip, when you put the flap handle in give yourself 5 notches. i like the first one because it is only a few degrees, but it takes the slack out of the linkage and puts the handle where you can grab it without taking your eye off the runway. important in tight spots. install a short handle, the long one will limit your left aileron, maybe not as much in the 12 with the wider fuse, but the 18 is a little crowded for the handle, your leg, and the stick. had to do a field mod to dads 63 after an almost bad experience. the back of your knee might also push the release button and dump flaps when you don't want it to happen, that sucks. it is exciting though.
Does your cub have the seaplane tube that goes up from the front left gear cluster to the wing root?
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
Behindpropellers brings up a good point which I haven't figured out yet. What do you do with the float plane brace tubes when you mount the handle? My wings are finished except for mounting the bellcranks which I will do when I put the wings on. However, I was noticing that the float tube brace which is connected to the bunge truss will interfere with the flaps handle. Also, the fuel valves will have to be moved up and forward to be out of the way of the handle mounts. Any thoughts?
As a suggestion to anyone using the DC kit, the PA-18 false spar which goes behind the fuel tank is very difficult to work with from underneath. If I had to do it again, I would use some false spar material and cover it with .032 just as the STC says. Makes it alot easier to install.
PA-12 N418BS
Mine has a tube that runs from the front gear attachment to the wing root but nothing is attached to the bungee cluster.
If it were my PA-12 I would probably look into mounting the flap handle like it is shown in the 18-105 planes. I have never seen the drawings but it might be easier than trying to adapt it to the seat. Maybe Alan "Kase" will chime in. If you need measurements I can take some pics of my j-5 fuselage.
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
Now THAT will work do you have any more photos or measurements. thanks Skip
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