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Thread: engine break-in question

  1. #1
    JMBreitinger's Avatar
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    engine break-in question

    I overhauled my engine while it was apart for inspection after a prop strike. What is the best indication that the rings have seated? Do you expect to see a drop in temperatures? What is a reasonable amount of time to expect for this to happen? I am about four hours in. Everything is running beautifully, though a bit hotter than expected.

  2. #2
    Nathan K. Hammond's Avatar
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    Usually there is a drop in oil consumption after the rings seat, and you might be able to notice it now; rings seat fairly quick about 2-4 hours. The exception would be chrome cylinders that can take 25hrs. The temp will come down a little when the rings seat, but can take longer; up to 15+/- hours, for everything to find it's home and the temp to normalize. Sounds like everything to doing fine.

    Congratulations on getting back into the air.

    nkh

  3. #3
    irishfield's Avatar
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    I take a plane up with a fresh engine in it and run the sh it out of it for 2 hours. I always see a drop in oil temps and CHT around 1hr -45 minutes and this has held true for steel/chrome/cermichrome cylinders.

    Too late now... but hope ground running was kept to an absolute minimum and you have run it hard for those 4 hours. DO NOT baby it.

  4. #4
    banner tow pilot's Avatar
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    engine break in

    what is the best way to break in a factory new o-360-c4p 180 hp? we tow banners with the plane and are just wondering what is the best procedure.

  5. #5
    SJ's Avatar
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    Here are some general guidelines from the manufacturer.

    http://www.lycoming.textron.com/supp...fs/SI1427B.pdf


    A link to all their service stuff.
    http://www.lycoming.textron.com/supp...-instructions/

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  6. #6
    cubhunter's Avatar
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    breakin

    Steve thanks for info wont be long now for new engine .Pat

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    cubhunter's Avatar
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    eng break in

    What about oil type and how long do you run it for .
    for first 50hrs or until oil consumption stabilizes. Thanks in advance..Pat
    Thanks Delta Cub thanked for this post

  8. #8
    Icarus's Avatar
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    Was always told to not be afraid to run it hard! Seat the rings & Not overheat the engine 185 -200 deg F oil temps. Try not to lean unless you have to. Chrome cylinders really have to be run Really hard! Vary the throttle and run 70 -80% at cruise. Change the Oil at 10 hours check the screen or filter, go another 20 -25 hrs check the screen or filter & 1 last time for 20 -25 hours everything should be seated in. Usually you get a little metal & it is usually aluminum. Most Manufacturers (ECI / Lycoming) are recommending Phillips Mineral 20w50 ( Black Bottle) & then switch to XC 20w 50 (Blue Bottle) after broken in. Always run 100 L/L when Breaking in then you can Mix Auto gas if applicable or legal for your Operation. Nothing like a New 180 hp Engine Woo Hoo

  9. #9
    irishfield's Avatar
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    Balls to the wall and don't come down the first time for a minimum of 2 hours. I usually see an oil temp drop about 1hr -45 minutes into the flight. Coming down earlier than seeing some temps drop = glazed cylinders and rings not seating.

    Concure on the Phillips mineral for breakin.. first 25 hours.

    Also don't run it any longer on the ground than to verify that you have no leaks. Long taxi way... tow it to the numbers and fire it up and blast off immediately.

  10. #10
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    You got me a little concerned there for a bit. I thought I was following the manufactures recommendations using the Blue bottle for break in. So I had to go have a look see. Here is what it says in the booklet that was sent with my new ECI engine. Am I missing something??




    Lubrication for Run-In and Break-In
    Hours on Overhaul Description Lubrication Package
    0 Initial fill-up Phillips X/C SAE 20W-50
    10 Change Oil and Filter Phillips X/C SAE 20W-50
    35 Change Oil and Filter Phillips X/C SAE 20W-50
    60 Change Oil and Filter Phillips X/C SAE 20W-50
    Every 50 Hrs. or 3 Months Change Oil and Filter Phillips X/C SAE 20W-50
    whichever comes first. is recommended.
    NOTE: Should you ever need to change out a cylinder you will not need to
    switch to a mineral oil for break-in. Since Phillips X/C20W-50 is 100% mineral it

    will ensure the break-in process for newly installed cylinder(s).
    NOTE: The following information applies to all types of cylinder bores:
    STEEL/CAST IRON - Plain, nitrided, through hardened
    CHROME - Porous, silicon carbide impregnated
    NICKEL COMPOSITE - CermiNil® process or Nickel+Carbide™
    The lubrication demands imposed upon your engine during run-in and break-in period
    are different from its operational needs.
    During run-in and break-in your lubricant should:
    1. Provide immediate oil flow and pressure for start-up
    protection.
    2. Provide protection against extreme temperature changes.
    3. Eliminate oil related by-product deposits.
    4. Suspend contaminants.
    5. Enhance the engine's break-in processes.
    Phillips SAE20W-50 multi-viscosity oil provides quick
    lubrication for improved start-up with the SAE20W low
    temperature viscosity. All multi grade oils lubricate three times
    faster than straight weight, yet its full bodied SAE 50 viscosity
    will completely protect the engine at high temperatures and
    operational loads. The ashless dispersant (AD) in this oil
    keeps your engine's lubrication system free from oil related contaminants. The
    dispersant additive further enhances the system by suspending contaminants and
    operational wear metals in solution rather than allowing them to settle to the bottom of
    your crankcase forming harmful engine sludge. Finally this 100% mineral product will
    enhance the mating of all the parts involved in systems requiring operational wear-in.

    For your convenience and future reference we recommend the following lubrication
    schedule (Without filter reduce intervals to 25 hours or 3 months whichever comes first):
    Page 13 © 2007 Engine Components, Inc.
    Gerald

  11. #11
    Icarus's Avatar
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    You are right Gerald the Blue bottle is still mineral based and a Blend but the Black bottle is MINERAL for break in Only. That is what I was told by Local Engine Gurus whom I trust I ran the black & switched to Blue after break in with no problems. And a LOT of the local Air Taxis run Blue Bottle ie: XC from break in to TBO, the Black bottle has a "M" on it & is supposed to be more for Break in and switch to the XC I think it is a non ashless dispersant oil & the Blue XC is an ashless dispersant ( less sludge build up) I really don't know for sure you could check Phillips website. I am running ECI Titans (steel cylinders)

  12. #12
    irishfield's Avatar
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    X/C 20W50 is a petroleum based oil. It is recommended as a breaking oil over a SINGLE WEIGHT mineral oil. Philips wouldn't bother selling a 20W50 Mineral oil if there wasn't some benefit? I run to the first oil change 10 or 15 hours on mineral 20W50 and then switch to XC

    http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/style...hillips-XC.pdf

  13. #13
    banner tow pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishfield
    Balls to the wall and don't come down the first time for a minimum of 2 hours. I usually see an oil temp drop about 1hr -45 minutes into the flight. Coming down earlier than seeing some temps drop = glazed cylinders and rings not seating.

    Concure on the Phillips mineral for breakin.. first 25 hours.

    Also don't run it any longer on the ground than to verify that you have no leaks. Long taxi way... tow it to the numbers and fire it up and blast off immediately.
    staying up is not a problem, seeing that i have to go from charlotte nc to atlanta ga to get the plane back home.

    thanks for all the usefull info guys

  14. #14
    cubhunter's Avatar
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    eng breakin

    Icarus up grading to 0320 from 0290 rebuild should be done end of march I also am running new ECI TITANS steel did you break yours in how do you like them and how is oil consumption.Pat Angelo

  15. #15
    cubhunter's Avatar
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    eng

    Thank you everyone for all this info cant Wait to get the new engine in and have alittle extra hp. Pat

  16. #16
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I've built several engines with the ECI Titans and had no issues with them. They broke in quickly (10 hrs.).
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  17. #17

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    My guy that overhauled mine, says dont touch the positiion of the prop when its shut off. I know it was sure tight right away and outside temp really changes things. What do you guys think? My 20-50 Phillips Mineral was in a blue bottle. doug

  18. #18
    Icarus's Avatar
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    You won't be disappointed with the TITANS

  19. #19
    Icarus's Avatar
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    Totally happy with the ECI TITANS as Steve Pierce said the steel break in quick . I have about 320 hours on them now still about 1 qt in 14 or 15 hours for oil use. The early ECI cylinders had an A.D. on them (Millenium & Lycoming did to) but ECI stands behind them Totally happy with the 2 engines I 've had that ECI Titans were on

  20. #20
    Rob's Avatar
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    On this topic there was some discussion way back, maybe by diggler? about not keeping the big wheels on during break in due to reduced cooling (speed) and not running the Borer due to lower manifold pressures... any more ideas on that? I have a Mac 74 56 (clipped borer) and 8.50s I could run for break in, but am not relishing the idea of swapping wheels and props without a benifit...

  21. #21
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Better to do it than to wish you had in my opinion. The prop will allow a higher manifold pressure which will help seat the rings. I hadn't thought much about the tires. I think 90 mph would be plenty of cooling air. J3s and Champs don't usually go that fast. Just watch the steep climbs.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Lycoming Engine Break-In

    I advanced searched on here and the latest thread is 2009.

    Ly-Con said to break-in my Lycoming per Service Instruction 1427C. Item 1 says: Do the engine pre-oil in accordance with the latest revision of SI 1241. I can NOT find SI 1241 on Lycoming's website? Does anyone have this SI?

    Also, under the flight test:
    1. Do a preflight run-up IAW the POH.
    2. Do a full power take-off IAW the POH.
    3. Monitor eng RPM, fuel flow, oil press, oil temp, and cylinder head temp.
    4. As soon as possible, decrease eng speed to climb power IAW POH???? Really, I thought you had to run it hard?

    Also, 7 states to decrease power to approx 75% at cruise altitude for 2 hours. So is that .75 X 2700=2025? That does not seem hard enough. I use to cruise around at 2350 prior to sending this engine to Ly-Con???? What are all you experienced guys doing? I kept it a 150HP with new Lycoming cylinders.

    Thank you,
    Brett

  23. #23
    Clay Hammond's Avatar
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    The math for determining 75% power is not linear with RPM, it will be further up towards the top of your propeller range.

    opinion: I agree with you that it should be run hard. Over at least 2500rpm for first 5-10 hours or until you see oil consumption drop to normal use. no slow flight or circling or gliding. Keep power up and nose level to get as much cooling affect as possible. Run it rich too to keep temps down. Keep airplane as low as possible to keep manifold pressure up. Again though, that's all opinion based on personal experience...YMMV. I've sold and delivered new Piper and Cubcrafters products for ten years now...lots of Lycomings in the mix.

  24. #24
    Scooter7779h's Avatar
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    75% for an O-320 is 2450, 2350 is close to 65%
    =========
    PA-12 fan

  25. #25

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    Thank you Clay and Scooter. What about the pre-oil Service Instruction 1241...anyone have that?

    Brett

  26. #26
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter7779h View Post
    75% for an O-320 is 2450, 2350 is close to 65%
    Not necessarily. Percentage power varies with density altitude. For example, at approximately 5000 feet density altitude, 75% power is about the maximum available. This is why Lycoming says you can't really harm an engine by leaning it IF you're above 5000 feet.

    Percent power is a function of rpm and density altitude.

    Breaking in an engine isn't high science. As the book says, use max power for takeoff. I always try to keep the ground ops including run up as brief as practical. After takeoff, you want to get some altitude, the run the engine at fairly high power settings, VARYING the power a bit periodically to help seat the rings. After two hours, most of the break in is done. Next flight, keep the power fairly high and continue to vary power some for the next couple hours.

    i highly recommend you buy an Operators manual for your engine from Lycoming...it does have a bit of good info.

    MTV

  27. #27

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    I'm currently breaking in a new Ly Con 160. Had 2.6 hrs in the test cell. After about 10 minutes ground time (rebuilt airframe) I did a full power climb to 1500 from sea level. After about 20 minutes at 2500-2550 I climbed full throttle to 4000 and finished the hour at 2450-2550. So far 2 more hours at similar power settings. Seems like its used about 12 oz of oil (aero shell 100 mineral) so far. I've kept it at about 6.5 qt on the stick. I plan to keep flying it the same for at least a few more hours. Don't know if I'm right but so far so good. Turns the stock prop about 2650 on take off according to the digital tach. Good luck with yours. Brett

  28. #28
    TirolCub's Avatar
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    ... think that SI 1241 is actually superseded with SI 1241C ...

    check this link

    http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/te...al%20Start.pdf
    Last edited by TirolCub; 10-14-2013 at 01:57 AM. Reason: adding a link

  29. #29
    nanook's Avatar
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    Pull a plug out of each cylinder. Disconnect the oil pressure flex line at the solid line or firewall fitting. Put the end of the line in a can. Turn the engine over with the starter, with no plug leads connected. Watch the oil coming out of the line, when it is flowing solid oil with no air bubbles in it, you are pre-oiled. (pint or two at the most for an O-320). Make sure you have plenty of oil in the sump, connect everything back up and go fly....

  30. #30
    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    Does the prop used during the break-in period make any difference? Say, if you had a 82-41 Borer and a Sensenich 74-53 available, would one be better to use during the break-in period than the other? Does it matter?

    Does ambient air temperature make much difference? I.e., would you break in an engine if the air temp was below freezing? Thinking about shock cooling when coming in for first landing. Would it make a difference?

    I've read that the first flight should be short, so you can check for any oil leaks. How short?

    I'll be breaking in my engine later this fall after an overhaul. It sounds like the main points are to minimize ground time, don't baby it, and occasionally vary the RPMs. What things should you most definitely want to avoid?

    Jim W

  31. #31
    nanook's Avatar
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    Use the Sensenich prop for higher MP.

    Nothing wrong with below freezing temps, better than above 80 temps... Carry some power in to land/ high drag with a shallow approach.

    How confident are you in your (or your A&P's) work? Double and triple check everything... You are the flying test stand, key word "test"... Stay in the pattern in the orbit mode. Above 75% power setting... Do an hour, if it looks/feels good stay up for another hour... Land and do a quick check, you are looking for oil/fuel leaks and loose parts...top off the oil sump. Run at max oil level!!! Oil absorbs and removes heat...

    It only takes a couple hours to seat the rings (if done properly) you are looking for a drop in CHT, and oil consumption. Follow the Lycoming instructions for engine break-in. Make a log book entry stating that you did I/A/W...don't exceed the airframe limitations when using high power settings...

  32. #32
    Jim 4WF's Avatar
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    % of power is dependent on manifold pressure and RPM depending on prop---With borer props these engines are loafing in level flight and anything under 2600 RPM---with a 82/41 prop at 1000 feet I get 20+- inches at 2500 RPM --way below 75%

  33. #33

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    Interestingly on my first flight my oil temp worked its way up to 225 over the course of the hour.Since then it has only reached about 185 with a similar OAT. Anyone have an opinion on when oil consumption is acceptable. Most the airplanes I've been involved with have used more oil than I wished. For instance our PA 18 95 uses a quart every 4 or 5 hours.

  34. #34

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    Breaking in advice?

    Just zero-timed my O-320 A2B and put high compression pistons in to bring it up to 160HP.

    Any advice re breaking in beyond the usual: run hard 25 hours, mineral oil etc?

  35. #35
    Cub@H20's Avatar
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    Agree on running hard. Flew my A2B at max rpm for two hours before reducing throttle for landing. Used Philips XC which has a mineral base. Compression check after 25 hours, all cylinders 79/80.

  36. #36
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    It may not take 25 hours. Watch your CHTs and oil temps. You will see a noticeable temperature drop at the time when it is broken in.
    N1PA
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  37. #37
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I merged your thread with several more on the subject. I run it high manifold pressure with a standard prop, not a Borer because of the low manifold pressure of the Borer.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers
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  38. #38
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    High manifold pressure is a function of the throttle. A Borer is called a climb prop because it will allow you to climb out at WOT. You must pull it back in cruise to avoid overspeed.

    A cruise prop will allow you to cruise at max without overspeed. Unlike the Borer, it will overspeed at normal climb airspeeds and WOT.
    Eddie Foy
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  39. #39
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    What is WOT?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  40. #40
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    WOT=Wide Open Throttle
    Pedal to the metal!
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"

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