Exactly my point, Wyoming should have never been excluded from the delisting. And that is exactly why the Judge ruled that way. Now maybe the feds will get off their arse and delist them properly in all three states.Originally Posted by ag-pilot
Exactly my point, Wyoming should have never been excluded from the delisting. And that is exactly why the Judge ruled that way. Now maybe the feds will get off their arse and delist them properly in all three states.
The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it....
By the way, I should inform a lot of you. Back in the day, the natives starved. They had to work for what they got. There was no Obama care back then. It wasn't unusual to follow a set of moose tracks for a week on snowshoes. It was a tough life, it changed when the cub came into the picture. My grandpa told me so, which is a lot more than most can say. He said a lot of people came into the country that read a lot of books about nature and predators, which made them experts. They were at least decade behind everyone else that lived the life. A lot of people think nature balances things out. Not so! I've killed a lot of wolves with trash in their guts. Metal cans and all. They killed for enjoyment when not for necessity. They will eat your dog, no second thought about it. It is kind of like you killing an ape cause your hungry and eating it. Think about it.
But what about those of us that aren't near Wyoming? What the hell do ya think that does to us while the wolf is back on the list? The way they're going about it is wrong! They're punishing us for someone elses actions again! While the Feds and greenies are wasting money, we're getting slammed.
John
don't get me wrong, I'm not for relisting them, I'm just saying the Judge looked at it and said what they did in Wyoming was political, so get their $hit in gear and get it straightened out.But what about those of us that aren't near Wyoming? What the hell do ya think that does to us while the wolf is back on the list? The way they're going about it is wrong! They're punishing us for someone elses actions again! While the Feds and greenies are wasting money, we're getting slammed.
John
call up the feds and scream at them for not delisting them in Wyoming like they should have done all along.
The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it....
Brian, I understand your point of view. But I don't agree on who is being political. Wyoming was being practical not political. The environmentalists are the political ones. Wolves are a huge cash cow for them. They make millions writing sad letters to people in the cities who think the wolf is being persecuted by hunting and livestock interests. Had the environmentalists not brought this suit to Molloy's court the wolf would be off the list today.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
Bottom line is that screaming at or to the Feds doesn't keep the wolves from killing our cattle (not to mention the wildlife and dogs, etc.). This is the reason I'm saying they're going about it wrong. We've been battling them all year, with them near enough to shoot from our front room.Now we get to sit and watch instead of defend our stock. Sounds like fun, huh? F&G's hands are tied, they can't help.... Nope, Molloy's ruling wasn't a smart one at all.... and anyone that says it was, isn't seeing the whole picture.
Call a fed to come take care of a wolf, or even investigate a "kill" so that we can do something about it (eventually) and see how fast things roll....
These wolves here don't have one damned thing to do with the ones in Wyoming...why base one on the other?
John
from my limited wildlife managment knowledge, critters like the wolf move around a bit...
A population that is listed as endangered, is endangered. Now if you have a critter endangered in Africa, but plentiful here, maybe you can get away with it not being listed over here, but it being listed there...
But if in a day you can drive between one spot that has them things listed as endangered, and another spot that has a shoot to kill order, you are going to have problems with the legal mumbo jumbo of the Endangered Species Act. The environmentalists will win every time.
Now, sensible folks would have gone to Wyoming and insisted that the stupid critters be delisted there, and problems solved, (what Brian has been saying). But in our "protect the environment" attitude of the green courts, the solution worked well for them to just re list them.
I suggest, if you really want to fight this, is to get the lobby working to delist them over all the states at one time. Or, better yet, box a few up and send them to Auntie Nancy in DC for pets
Maby the Whitehouse has room for another puppy :P
Please do not take the above as an opinion that it is the best for all what has happened. Just an explaination of what I see as another well played manuver by the green side to politicaly hamstring the wildlife managment folks.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
I kinda like the policy of "Dont ask dont tell".. Washington uses that policy in the military... if its good enough for them, its good enough for us...
HardtailJohn... see you this winter.
My Montana Friends to the North:
It is unfortunate that Molloy rescended prior decisions and put ID and MT wolves back on the ES list and stopped your hunting and management of the viscous predator. I have been watching this thread closely and have been reluctant to weigh in but couldn't hold back any longer. I stand by my home state of WY and our decesion to not cave into the Feds pressure. Our proposed wolf management plan was sound scientific wildlife management where the wolf had trophy status in the NW corner of our state and you needed a limit quota license to hunt and population surveyed and managed by the wildlife biologists. The rest of the state, the wolf was classified as a predator and could be shot on sight, with out a license which in turn is protecting our way of life and our personal property be it poodles, cattle, sheep, etc. In summary, I stand by our Governor and State in not bowing to the Feds and agreeing to manage the wolves as the Feds see fit. We will manage the wolves as we see fit. We may lose a battle or two but hopefully when it is all said and done we have won the war. I sure hope you guys aren't blaming us for this recent decesion by a federal judge in Missoula who needs to quit listening to the animal rights people and start lisening to the people who live in the west and are trying to make a living at it.
Jack
Now, Geo, where the hell ya gonna find one of those in a gov't office??HA!!
My observation:
It is apparent that all common sense flies right out the window once a politician gets past the municipal level. Instead of doing what makes sense, or for the good of the majority, they do what the 'squeaky wheel' groups want to hear/see.
It's all about getting (re) elected, covering your A$$, and then walking away to a comfy retirement without a real care what happens after your term. Have we seen this before? (A time or two)
[Loud profanity!]
Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"
I have no problems with Wyoming's stance on wolves. Montana took a different approach but that doesn't mean we blame Wyoming for our wolf trouble. And I think most Montanan's would feel that way. Personally I admire the way Wyoming told the feds to leave them alone.
The real trouble makers are the environmentalists and judge Molloy. We don't need to pit state against state.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
My sentiments exactly! Jack, I wish MT had stood by you guys and done the same thing.... alot of us wanted them to. My gripe is with the thought that it's an "all or nothing" thing... and that the idiot judge did what he did.
John
Spinner2, John:
I was pretty sure you guys were staging a border war. I think we need to get together and resolve this thing once and for all.
Here's a link to an editorial that was in the Missoulian newspaper a few days ago in regards to wolves. This fellow sums up how the vast majority of the people of Montana feel about wolves, the feds and judge Molloy.
http://missoulian.com/news/opinion/c...cc4c03286.html
If we don't get rid of Molloy and the wolves soon Montana will look like Stewart's description of Unimak.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
While we are at it, lets get rid of the idiots in the US F&W that excluded Wyoming in the first place and created this mess. Maybe the one good thing about this, if Wyoming won't budge, is they'll have to let Eastern Montana manage The wolves the same way, as predators to be shot on sight.
The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it....
On Fox web site today..
Wolf Killings Set to Expand Despite Endangered Status
Published September 05, 2010
| Associated Press
Print Email Share Comments (36) Text Size
AP/Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks
This 2004 photograph provided by Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks shows an adult male wolf from the Lazy Creek pack north of Whitefish, Mont.
BILLINGS, Mont. -- Government agencies are seeking broad new authority to ramp up killings and removals of gray wolves in the Northern Rockies and Great Lakes, despite recent court actions restoring the animal's endangered status across most of the country.
Various proposals would gas pups in their dens, surgically sterilize adult wolves and allow "conservation" hunts to drive down the predators' numbers.
Once exterminated across most of the West, wolves made a remarkable comeback in recent decades. Yet as packs continue to multiply, their taste for livestock is stoking a backlash.
Wildlife officials say that without public wolf hunting, agencies need greater latitude to eliminate problem packs.
Wolf advocates say the response to marauding wolves is too heavy-handed.
Seems like balanced reporting to me.......but folks, don't forget that FOX NEWS is not a news agency!
Also, "...wolf killings..." interesting use of the term "killings".
http://dailyinterlake.com/news/local...cc4c03286.html
Not a fun situation for them to have been in.....
John
Yikes!
cafi
UPDATE!! At least for Great Lakes region wolf issue. They are going to try "again" to remove the Gray Wolf from the endangered list in the Great Lakes region. This has been attempted before with bad results due to the enviromentalists from what I understand. I know the deer population around my area is down compared to an average year. Most years I normally see at least a dozen or more deer on my strip or in the field daily. This past year the most I saw all year has been 5 with normall just a doe and two fawns. Saw a lot of tracks, heard them howling, and found sign of kills all around my place in the last couple of years. Several people have spotted them near and on my property.
Personally I enjoy seeing them but at the same time would definitely hunt them if I were able to.
http://www.wxow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13653632
WW
The environmentalists want wolves returned to all of the US now: http://missoulian.com/news/national/...fec8880a0.html They're giving USFWS 60 days to come up with a plan or they'll sue. Let's hope they don't pick Missoula and Judge Molloy. He'll give them whatever they want on silver platter.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
"We've learned from where wolves have been reintroduced that they have a tremendous benefit," Greenwald, of the Center for Biological Diversity, said."
WOW!!! I guess we musta missed that "tremendous benifit"!!!! How silly of us!!!! Good God... where do they come up with these parasites like him?????
JH
Maybe turn a couple of packs loose in Central Park.
Most of these cities where these enviro - folks live can't even take care of their stray dog problem. Be interesting to see what they do with the real thing.
Last edited by gbflyer; 12-22-2010 at 11:16 AM.
[QUOTE=Hardtailjohn; Good God... where do they come up with these parasites like him?????
JH[/QUOTE]
Law schools.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
Reminds of Minnesota in the late 1980's. There was a big hearing down at the state capitol on wolves, and the problem with them killing livestock, particularly here in NE Minnesota. A program was in place to pay farmers a certain $ amount for each cow killed by a wolf, and not allow any wolves to be killed. The entire twelve month budget for paying the farmers for losses was used up in the first two months of the year. Farmers demanded the state change something, or come up with more money to pay for wolf kills. On the floor of the MN legislature, a woman from one of the environmentalist groups stood up and gave a teary eyed speech saying that killing problems wolves is not the answer, instead, she said, Minnesota should invest money in a birth control program for wolves. A cattle rancher from just north of Orr, MN got up to the podium and said "Lady, the damn wolves are eating my cows not F$%^ing them". The entire legislature errupted with laughter. Fortunately now here in MN we can shoot any wolf that is causing problems. We're inching closer to complete delisting. The Feds want it, the MN Dept of Nat Resources has a plan ready to manage them, unfortunately the environmentalists have twice jammed it up in the courts. One of our US Senators (not Frankenstein) just introduced legislation to fast track this delisting. We'll see.
You'll never win if it is an emotional thing. For me it is, food on the table. For most folks it is "nature will balance itself out, yeah right. "NO HISTORY", is the answer to that.
Sorry to barge in on all here, and before someone kills the messenger, please note that I'm an avid hunter and outdoors person. I am not taking sides here, but some comments here make me wonder if they are not been made with too much emotion?
Having said that, and without any data for areas discussed by those on this thread, there is a positive impact of wolves introduction in those ecosystems closer to where I am.
For example, an established population of 75 adult Wolves in the region of Cantalejos, Guadalajara Spain introduced in 1990 has increased the Red Dear population in the region. It has also reduced the Feral Dod population to less that 15 animals censored this year from 300 animals. The Wild Boar has also benefited substantially as in the last ten years, Wolves have eradicated a contagious skin condition that impacted the population from the 80's to the 90's where it was though that this population was not sustainable and would diminish and disappear.
One of the key features of this project was that Human predation was reduced 75% for the first 5 years of the introduction project. in the first five year the Red Dear heard grew from 200-300 (don't recall the facts) to an astonishing 1400 animals.
The only drawback to the project has been to the hunters, now the Stag quality is so great, the the cost for a trophy license has risen over x200 and now cost almost $500 if you are drawn. Hunting is done with animal sweep lead by dogs and gram drives, there are 200 stands in the region and average is 75 animals per day for a 5 day hunting season. Wild Boars range in the 8 animals per hunter (cheaper) in the same season.
From a indirect perspective, there is no a established Ibex population in the higher grounds (not censored ) which is still regarded as endangered. Vulpus population has dramatically been reduced thus increasing the Lion Vulture and Barbed Vulture population. The later has reestablished itself in the fourth region with a sustainable population is Iberia. Partridge hunting is superb as predation for nest has diminished since the reduction of Vulpus (red fox). The grow of the Partridge population has lead to new Gayuba berries at lower altitudes and a established primary (10 years old) patch of Holly forest. There is even two breeding pairs of imperial eagles that found the region to suit them well.
Well, to all this, I would like to ask is someone is keeping a tally of the human predation for these Artiodactylas vs. the Lupus predation?
Has this predation been considered on those troubled areas?
http://spaincub.wordpress.com
Spain Cub. That is great news what the wolves have done for the region.(somewhat tongue in cheek)
Hopefully a management plan is in place with contingencies for the coming Lupus boom. (They follow boom/bust cycles just like rabbits and their predators, only the Lupus/prey boom/bust cycles are 40 to 100 year cycles, not 7 years like the rabbits).
Wolf numbers are best managed, rather than left to nature, if human interests garner any importance, and they do to this human!
Also, modern (2005) gray wolf studies disprove some "common" misperceptions of the 'regal' wolf.
1. Only the alpha couple mate (False. Subordinate pack members travel to the edges of adjacent territory and mate with subordinates from neighboring packs)
2. Only old or sick prey are taken (False. Wolves are wild animals and opportunists. Healthy prey animals are taken as well as week, young, or ill. Sometimes not even eaten, as proved by the case of a large group of Dall's Sheep rams slain and not eaten locally)
3. No documented attacks on Humans (False. Alaskan natives have talked about attacks for years. Just last spring an Alaskan village teacher was taken by wolves while jogging).
Management!!! I don't want them exterminated!! I want them managed so we can enjoy them at a distance for ever.
Good post dave.
72A
John
Here's a link to an interesting website concerning wolves: http://www.lobowatch.org/
For the most part it pertains to wolves in the Northern Rockies but there are also references to historical facts about wolves, sub-species, and Canadian and European wolves. There is also a caution to dog owners who take their pets in the woods that the artificial sweetner Xylitol is poisonous to canines.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
Just so's you know..............a tape measure tape rolled up and covered in frozen fat, if ingested, will eventually kill a pet dog taken into the woods.
Also, a razor bled set on edge and frozen in the ice with bacon smell around it will cause a pet taken into the woods and onto the ice to lick it until he falls over from weakness and die from blood loss.
These are old Native tricks for dealing with wolves.........and they ain't pretty..........professional management is better, by far!
D
Last edited by Dave Calkins; 12-23-2010 at 10:36 PM.
Dave, you make a great point and I could not agree with you more on that. I understand management, but was I was inferring to was that human activity should be managed vigilantly for the sake of all the wildlife not just the Lupus... Again, that is my opinion based on what I have read on this thread and with no data on the problem there in AK.
I hope a balanced solution is found so that I can still get there and enjoy all the wild life in the State!
Merry Xmas to all!
I couldn't agree more. That's why the people of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming got so mad and upset when judge Molloy put the un-endangered wolf back on the endangered species list and thereby eliminated the state's ability to manage them. Apparently it has made some people so mad they are poisoning wolves and therefore the caution to dog owners.
The fact is too that the wolf we have here today was not reintroduced, it was introduced by the USFWS contrary to federal regulations. This is a Canadian gray wolf not the original timber wolf that roamed the Northern Rockies and plains. It is an invasive species. Judge Molloy conveniently overlooks that fact.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
SpainCub, yes, management of human impacts. Alaskan game is managed pretty well. Bag limits and animal sex and 'size' limits, along with continued study and counting of the prey populations and the right to emergency season closures have provided managers with tools. Predator population study and control are other tools. These have provided somewhat constant numbers of prey in many locales. It is interesting that some prey numbers have little to do with the human predation.........they are controlled by winter mortality and wild predators, with zero affect from human hunters.
I don't know how Europe goes, but I know that many European hunters come to Alaska and consider it a Shangrila for hunters. Sadly, many of them do not respect or love it and attempt to rape it and take more than a share. I fear that kind of behavior in your region's past has had it's effects.
Spinner2, I haven't read the article from your link yet. Now I get what you were saying. Initially I thought your mention about the caution to pet owners was tongue in cheek.
To add to Dave's comments regarding management, people seem to lose track of just how basic this is under the laws of the state of Alaska. I have included a execerpt from Article 8 of the Alaska Constituition. It is a really simple document, too bad the people in Juneau can't or won't take the time to read and apply it.
The Constitution of the State of Alaska
Adopted by the Constitutional Convention February 5, 1956
Ratified by the People of Alaska April 24, 1956
Became Operative with the Formal Proclamation of Statehood January 3, 1959.
Article 8 - Natural Resources
§ 3. Common Use
Wherever occurring in their natural state, fish, wildlife, and waters are reserved to the people for common use.
§ 4. Sustained Yield
Fish, forests, wildlife, grasslands, and all other replenishable resources belonging to the State shall be utilized, developed, and maintained on the sustained yield principle, subject to preferences among beneficial uses.
If we are going to continue to harvest the fish and wildlife for food produccts in Alaska then that is a "beneficial use" let's treat it as such! I for one wholeheartedly support active management of our fish and game resources, if that means we need to kill a few wolves, then so be it.
"What we obtain too cheap we esteem too little!
Dale, thank you for posting this excerpt.
I especially understand, yet cannot figure why the greens don't understand......"...replenishable resources belonging to the State....".
Replenishable,,,,with proper management. Yay!
D
Wolves will come in and take your dog off its collar in the village. Easy meal, when they are starving. I seen them full of tin cans before. They were starving, eating out of the dump. Balanced out in nature is a bunch of crap.
Natural balance equals = Boom and Bust. That's a horrible way for the cuddly wolf to die, tin can in belly. Greenies want their mother (Earth) to take care of things. "She" is a harsh mother!!
Management has made it possible to have both high prey numbers AANNNNDDDD high wolf numbers, consistently, without boom and bust, without starving wolf puppies.
I think the average greenie sees things from an emotional level first, and is unable to separate their emotional response about the regal wolf (or global warming, or human "overpopulation" lies) from the fact that objectively, solutions are available, with fact and results to support these solutions.
Life is a bitch!!!! You do what you have to!! Sorry, but some people are brainwashed, naive, infantile, and unthinking!!!!
He, hey, Merry Christmas, I mean that!!! DAVE
Kinda like Climate change! We aren't smart enough to manage a few animals; but we are smart enough to change global climate change, by going green!
Merry Christmas! You Never Know, It Could Be Our Last One!
Tim
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