Read some of the responses on the bottom
http://newsminer.com/news/2008/jul/1...u-herd-popula/
Read some of the responses on the bottom
http://newsminer.com/news/2008/jul/1...u-herd-popula/
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison
Time to wipem out so Haber don't have noten left ta study!
Tim
600 caribou left? The pups either starve now or later.
Joe
Welcome to Alaska! When you disembark the state, it is required that you leave both your daughters and your wallets, thank you!
And another wolf story:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080719/...wolf_delisting
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison
Marine Corps Aviation since 1966
Marine Corps Aviation since 1966
I just spent a week on Unimak Island about an hour southwest of Cold Bay. If anyone doubts the wolf problem is real I suggest you go for a hike on Unimak. In two days I found three fresh wolf kills of big double-shovel caribou. In my time there I saw 2 calves. The calf survival rate is pathetically low. Without exaggerating I can honestly say the Unimak caribou herd is staring at total extermination by wolves. If not this winter, probably next. When flying out we jumped 8 wolves on a fresh kill of a big healthy bull. The problem is very real, and very easily managed. Unimak, however, is federal land. No wolf control.
Bye, bye, caribou. What a shame.
Stewart
Stewart,
You need to blow the rust out of some of those guns you have.
Stewart,
For perspective, the caribou herd on Unimak virtually disappeared during the winter of 1977-78.
Fall of 77, there were literally thousands of caribou out there--we estimated on the order of 10,000. Spring of 78, you could fly out there all day long and find maybe a half dozen, on a good day.
We never figured out what happened to them, but it sure wasn't wolves, since there were only a couple packs on the island at the time. Some assumed they tried to cross the straits to the Peninsula, and got swept out to sea. Some thought they simply starved to death, due to overpopulation. Who knows, but I hiked for hours and hours out there that spring and never found many skeletons on the island. Over a period of years, the caribou came back.
I'm always amused that people seem so amazed and offended that wolves kill large ungulates. It's what they do.
In fact, I'm always amazed when a HUNTER seems so offended by wolves killing ungulates. After all, I consider it hard enough to sneak up close enough to a caribou in that country to kill it with a high powered rifle, let alone doing so with my mouth. I've got a lot of respect for the critters, myself--its a hard way to earn a living.
I wonder what the wolves think about US---probably wish like heck they could get just ONE good rifle, oh yeah, and a Super Cub to go with it. Sandy Jamieson obviously had the idea before I did.....
Mind you, I have no big problem with killing wolves now and again, particularly for sport or hides.
But, wolves won't extinct the caribou herd on Unimak Island.
MTV
Mike,
You're wrong. There is no disputing the population crash or the apparent cause of it. All a guy needs to do is fly it and walk it with his eyes open. The evidence is indisputable and is really easy to find.
Stewart
Stewart,
Nope, sorry, but you are wrong. Unimak is different than most of Alaska. Human activity out there is almost non existent, except on the very east end of the island, and a very few people such as yourself who go there from elsewhere in AK.
So, the influence of humans on the caribou out there is near zero. If what you are saying were in fact true, the caribou would have been wiped out centuries ago by wolves. It didn't happen, and it won't happen now.
Wolves are hunters, just like us. The difference is that wolves haven't gotten any better at it over the centuries, but in the last 60 or 80 years, we humans have gotten a LOT better at hunting. Since so few humans hunt on Unimak, I seriously doubt we have any significant influence on that group of animals. Disease sure does, and as many caribou as were out there in the mid 70's can virtually wipe out the limited food supply in a place like Unimak.
I was out there in the late 70's and saw that herd virtually disappear over winter. They came back from that. They'll come back from whatever is going on out there right now as well.
I never claimed that Nature is always pretty. Sometimes its downright brutal. Nevertheless, wolves eating caribou isn't unusual, nor does it constitute an emergency.
It's what they do.
But I'm sure Mit will chime in here shortly and square me away.....
More importantly, how was your hunt?? That's one of the most spectacular places in Alaska, in my mind. It's definitely out there, though.
MTV
Obviously my observations from last week can't stand up to your subjective stories from over 30 years ago.
I elected to pass on killing a caribou. The bulls that remain are small and few. The antlers available at the numerous wolf kills were much nicer than any seen on living animals.
Even subsistence hunting on the island has been severely restricted, a move that has gone unopposed since the eligible hunters recognize the herd is in serious trouble. My anticipation of possible extinction of the Unimak herd is not unique. I was told by more than one local resident that I may have been the last caribou hunter on the island.
Stewart
Steve,Originally Posted by SteveE
Stewart,
You need to blow the rust out of some of those guns you have.
I have a moose permit as well but I'll wait for for freeze-up and snow cover, and the corresponding absence of bugs.Next year I'll spend more time fishing, although this past week I had some pretty spectacular fishing, too. But, the weather around south west Alaska turned white on Friday and coming home got a little easier to accept!
Stewart
That sure is a beautiful picture Stewart. maybe someday I might be able to enjoy some fishing up there too. Glad at least somebody I know is enjoying the great world of the outdoors.
I just returned from 2 weeks on the Kenai Peninsula, daughter wanted to see wolves and bears among other critters. I told her the wolves would be a mighty long shot. Saw 2 wolves within the first few days, one crossing the road and 1 while trying to teach her to fly fish. I guess the lessons must have been pretty entertaining to make a wolf watch.
Being from a ranching family here in CA, my first thought was how good they would look on the wall but it was something to see them regardless.
As for the fly fishing, just like flying, you can't teach what you can't do. I will stay with my spinning reel.
Stewart,
My "subjective stories from 30 years ago" are based on working out there , gathering data, not spending a few days hunting there. My point was and is, simply that the Unimak herd has had serious ups and downs over the years, and will again. That is the nature of caribou.
In any case, it is indeed a spectacular place, and I often recall the phenomenal geology and wildlife there.
It's a very special place, and anyone who goes there will have a special experience.
MTV
The consensus of the game managers/biologists is that an un-managed wolf population can reduce the ungulate population to 'scarce' numbers, and then hold those very low numbers as well as hold very low wolf numbers for 20-30 years.
On the other hand, managing wolves before the ungulate population crash can enable ungulate numbers to increase, followed by an increase in wolf numbers.
This renewable resource (wolves, and also ungulates) properly managed, can benefit both the wolf lover and the hungry humans.
...this is not my opinion, this is the consensus of the biologists with experience in this matter.
Notice I said, "...management can enable...". A bad winter or a strong bear population will have an affect on the population of the ungulates, as well.
Mike, why did you not mention this point of view?
DAVE
Woops.....Gotta disagree with Mike, (again!)
Caribou numbers do vary in natural cycles. They increase until parasites, diseases, over browse and predators do their work. They then decrease dramatically. The Mulchatna herd is a good example.
I think that if man reduces the numbers of predators, the decrease will be delayed, the bottom caribou numbers will be increased and the recovery time will be less.
In other words, I agree with Dave.
Oh by the way, the above pic is my attempt to increase moose numbers from a dangerous low in Unit 16B. The State biologist and Dept. of Fish and Game have determined that Unit 16B is a predator control area. Meaning...The predators (wolves and bears) have depleted the ungulates (moose) to a dangerously low level. I've hunted that area for 42 years, I agree. I will kill every wolf or bear I see in 16B to decrease their effect on the decrease on moose.
I don't dislike wolves or bears. I want one moose, they can have a few. I think that's fair?
Dave and TJ,
Believe it or not, I basically agree with you both. You'll note I specifically stated that I see no problem with killing wolves.
Please READ my post. My point was that Unimak is remote. I've spent WEEKS trying to get out there from CDB for census work, at times. It's really out there and wild country.
I did not suggest that reducing a predator population won't permit a slightly faster ungulate recovery---I basically agree with that, if certain other parameters are met as well. That requires a VERY intensive predator control program, and frankly, that just isn't likely to be successful on Unimak Island due to logistics and weather.
My point was and is, simply that statements like "Without exaggerating I can honestly say the Unimak caribou herd is staring at total extermination by wolves." are in fact exaggeration and overly emotional. That herd won't be exterminated by wolves.
Again, this is probably one of the very few places in Alaska where humans have had virtually no influence on ungulate and/or predator populations. Yet those caribou have been coming and going like this long before we got here. The cycles take a while to occur, but that's the way it is.
That does NOT imply that killing a few wolves would be a bad thing, but precisely WHO are you trying to save the caribou for in this case and who's going to kill the wolves? There is a small population of folks at False Pass (what, less than 80?), and they can only reach a very small part of the island in any case. Even when caribou are plentiful, they often can't get to them. You can count the number of caribou sport hunters that go out there on one hand in a given year, and most of them are also hunting brown bear.
It is also worthy of note that, with such low human activity, there is one thing that will moderate or cap a caribou population growth: Lack of forage. So, let's say you go out there and reduce wolf numbers to zero. The caribou population continues to grow until it crashes--and it WILL crash eventually. The problem you've got now is that the herd will have literally HAMMERED the browse in the little available habitat by over grazing. This is basically what happened in the mid seventies. And, it takes MUCH LONGER for the habitat to recover than it does a herd of animals which has decent forage. REmember, caribou are very specific in thier food habits. It isn't the wolves that cause a herd to crash, it's habitat. Unimak is approximately 1 million acres, give or take. Just guessing, but less than half of that is caribou habitat. The rest is high mountains, volcanos, lava flows, etc. The picture that Stewart posted was taken somewhere in the western portion of Urilia Bay, I'm guessing, which is by far the best caribou habitat on the island. While its a fairly big island, there's really not that much habitat for caribou.
So, put out a contract to go kill as many wolves as you can on Unimak. It'll be massively expensive, quite unlikely to produce any level of success due to weather, logistics, etc, and it will benefit a very tiny minority and for just a short period of time, even if it were to succeed. That herd WILL crash again, even if you eliminated wolves, and it would then take even longer for the caribou to recover.
Frankly, I wish more people would trap and hunt wolves in AK--like TJ, rather than sit back and whine about wolves killing "their" game and expecting someone else to go kill off what they perceive as their competition.
My point was and is, that the caribou population on Unimak has been cycling like this for centuries. It does not constitute an emergency in any way. I for one think we can learn from these kinds of areas, and that we don't have to try to manipulate game herds EVERYwhere, particularly when there's no purpose.
Dave, what you are talking about may in fact be good management strategy for an area that's somewhat heavily hunted by humans. That is certainly the strategy that the BOG has taken, and handed to F &G. Please point out where I stated that I disagreed with that concept?
The point is, this is UNIMAK Island, not the Kenai Peninsula or Unit 20.
MTV
delete
Alaska isn't the only place with wolf problems. The last couple of weeks I have noticed a major decline in deer sightings around my house. I suspected there were wolves in the area again. The seem to travel through every so often. Sure enough while out grouse hunting last night I found a couple piles of wolf scat. Unfortunately MN just recently upheld their Endangered status, so no hunting them here.....legally.
WW
Mike hasn't been there in 30 years. He doesn't have a clue what's going on TODAY. That's obvious to anyone who's been there recently.My point was and is, simply that statements like "Without exaggerating I can honestly say the Unimak caribou herd is staring at total extermination by wolves." are in fact exaggeration and overly emotional. That herd won't be exterminated by wolves.
Hey Mike, you think the browse is down? What's the vegetation condition on the island right now? How does it compare with last year, when the caribou population was crashing but was significantly stronger than this year's critically low numbers? Do you think the wolf numbers are up? How's the health of the wolves you see? How about the bears? What role are you seeing them play? What are you seeing from....Minnesota?
Stewart
Stewart,
Don't get your underwear in a knot, fer cryin out loud.
READ my posts--all I said is that this has been going on for centuries now. I don't know what the forage condition is now, and no I haven't been there for a long time. I'm betting, however, that things haven't changed much on that island since I did spend time there.
Sorry, I wasn't aware that you'd done a browse survey as well as your caribou and wolf census while you were out there recently....
Take care,
MTV
Hey, I like wolves. I just want to say that.
Mike, I read your posts. It seemed that your position was balanced a little bit toward 'wolves didn't do this', so I thought I'd mention what I did. The info. was for others as much as for you.
Anyone see what Cafi wrote and deleted?
What I hate about this computer chat discussion thing is that we can't be face to face and have a normal conversation with all the normal visual cues that help us communicate, also, the rhythm of conversation and pauses, etc.
DAVE
Dave,
I guess that depends on what you are referring to as "this" --- as in your "wolves didn't do this" comment.
Did the wolves cause a herd of caribou to increase in numbers to the point where their forage can't support the numbers?
Did the wolves kill close to 10,000 caribou in 1977?
Are wolves part of the equation? Most certainly. And, if they are competing with humans for game, then it certainly makes sense to limit wolf populations. If they're not competing with us, leave em alone, or go sport hunting for wolves instead of caribou....
My point was, though, that the big and long down side to population swings in caribou herds has more to do with the very high numbers of caribou wiping out the quality forage, and the fact that it takes a LONG time for the habitat to recover from that. In that light, the wolves actually help to limit damage to the forage, but frankly, when a herd gets to that density, particularly in a place like Unimak, where they can't move around much, they are going to hammer the forage before they crash. And, crash they will.
And a recovery will take a long time to occur, because of the lack of quality forage.
I like wolves too, but again I see no problem with hunting and trapping wolves. Frankly, I dont' see a big issue with predator control programs either. If you're gonna do it, though, get two gunners in a Jet Ranger, and go kill em.
TJ,
Sorry if I ticked you off, complimenting you and all---I'll try to do better
MTV
Dave,
I deleted my post after reading Mike's (before mine). Apparently the commercial hunting is not a factor in an area such as the one in discussion here....for a variety of reasons.
My post only spoke of natural occurrences in nature....one animal thrives on the success of his prey/food supply. When that food supply diminishes...so does the population of that animal....hence allowing the food supply to recover and around and around we go.
cafi
PS I am not opposed to hunting....but you have to admit it has an adverse effect on natural selection. Hunters want the strong trophy animal and not the weak and sick.
While I respect your position and opinion, I must disagree with a bit of it. If one takes a look around at some of the areas, say in Texas for example, where the harvest of trophy whitetail deer is their business, they have found that it is better for the herd to harvest a number of the mature animals. It seems that the 3-4 year olds, while not weak or sick, are plenty capable and better suited to do the breeding. Also, talking about moose in the area of Alaska where I live and hunt as well as many others, it is going to be mandated that the hunters take either the young spike antlered animals, or the older more mature with 50" antler spread or greater. It has nothing to do with trophy hunting, but herd management.
I am no biologist by the way, and enjoy the discussion. Those who manage our game have a difficult job and are always heavily scrutinized. I sure wouldn't want the job.
This is just what I have noticed the trends to be.
We have some wolves here that play a significant role as well. There is only one active trapper here, and the number of wolves are on the increase. The moose, on the decrease. But, that has as much to do with feed as it does predation in my uneducated opinion.
gb
I am certainly no expert here either....I am learning a great deal...not only about the problems of the herd management but so much more.
I just cant help but think that we often forget OUR role in the environment. We have forced out a lot of the predators in some instances....and we cause some of the imbalance.
I add my opinion or things that I have learned based on life here more to learn and understand what is going on there. It is of great interest. There are no longer wolves in CT from what I am told. And while I understand the problems you have and also that I am a minority in my thought....I feel it is sad. Our deer population is out of proportion. Their main predator is likely us now...by gun and by car.
Again....it appears that our role is less significant in Unimak than in other places.
Looks like a beautiful place...one that I will add to my list of places to see!
cafi
The old wives tale that wolves only prey on the sick and weak is a just that ......a tale. They are opportunists and will kill whatever they run across when they desire to kill.
Cafi, thanks for replying.
Wolves are not selective to the weak or old.
Also. If left alone with the wolves, the ungulate population will crash, even with sufficient habitat/browse, followed by a crash in wolf numbers. My father, myself, and my children could miss out on hunting ungulates in an area allowed to crash rather than managed for sustainable numbers.
Alaska'a constitution requires that the animal populations be managed for maximum numbers. Alaska is the best hunting in the world for a reason.
Some think it should be one big hunting area. Others think it should be one big set aside park. I suspect the best use would be somewhat of a balance.
If your or my goal is to see more wolves and more moose/caribou, then removing a few wolves at a critical time in the ungulate numbers will accomplish that goal by allowing a recovery of ungulate numbers to a level that willl sustain higher wolf numbers as well.
DAVE
And that is pretty much a fact, though if you watch wolves work, you'll find that sometimes they "test" the prey a bit before they dive in. Does it run? Kill it. Does it stand and fight? Well, maybe look somewhere's else. Whether that's because they're not really that hungry yet, or they don't want their dentures re-arranged again, who knows?
Point is, however, if the pack is big enough, and they're hungry, they'll go after what's available.
Ya gotta respect a critter that weighs around 100 pounds being willing to tackle something that weighs nearly ten times that.
The NFL could use some of those.
There'd be a flag first time the teeth made contact, though.
MTV
What if they were boxing?
Cafi,
At the risk of turning this into an essay, I'd like to make some specific comments about my feelings toward wolves and about Unimak today.
To preface, I've had a cabin in Unit 16B for 20 years. You may refer to TJ's earlier post to ascertain the current popular view of the wolf impact in 16B. I have seen the moose's population there decline steadily for 20 years. I've seen some increase in the wolf population and also in the bear population. I've seen a large increase in the presence of humans as well, both resident and transient. About 15 years ago a boat access was placed in the Big Susitna River that made the area much more accessible. Couple that with increased speed, size, and reliability of our motorized equipment and the greater presence of humans is certainly a factor. In that area I've never been convinced that wolves played a big role in the decline of the moose population. I can't see any evidence to support the contention directly. I suspect, and have for some time, that bears are the bigger problem. Evidence of bear kills in 16B is everywhere. I also blame Alaska's Fish & Game managers for bumbling behind the curve of the obvious. But, game managers are slaves of the political system, and that assures inefficiency and tardiness of response. So, while I adamantly favor my state's right to control predators, I've stayed in the middle as to whether 16B wolves should be actively controlled.
Move forward to Unimak 2008. I arrived at my friend's lodge in Cold Bay to find a fence made of wolf killed caribou heads. Recent kills, too. Upon arrival to base camp on Unimak I saw more. While walking I discovered more. No little animals. No cows. Big, healthy bulls. Lots of them. As I said earlier, I passed on harvesting an animal. There are two professional outfitters/guides that are authorized to hunt the federally controlled lands on Unimak. Tim Booch of Kodiak and Rod Schuh of Anchorage. By my count? The two of them had a total harvest of 6 animals this year. All on the north side, because there aren't any animals on the south side. The harvest is very low because the herd numbers are extraordinarily low. By the way, the vegetation on the island is going nuts. Strips are limited to cinder blows and landing on vegetation is prohibited. Last year's strips are overgrown. Mike can't see that from his perch. There is NO browse problem.
After a few days I was ready to throw in the towel and head fishing. I'd seen enough. The herd was hurting and there wasn't anything there I wanted to shoot. Within 2 minutes of when Rod picked me up we flew over 8 wolves that had just (within hours) killed another nice bull caribou. A big bear was claiming the kill and fending off the 8 wolves as we circled and watched. Rod knew I'd shoot the wolves, given the chance. My buddy 2 minutes behind us was desperate to return to Wyoming for a sheep hunt and I knew if I wanted those wolves it would interrupt his sheep trip, so we headed to Cold Bay and the wolves were left to kill more caribou, and probably donate them to more bears.
With zero exceptions, all the wolf kills we found were bulls. As I said earlier I spotted only 2 young animals in the herd (approx 50-60 individuals). The area's game managers are very worried about the calf survival rate and the mature animal predation death rate. The situation is dire. If the island sees a big snow year the few remaining caribou are doomed. Most Alaskans know that with big snows comes a big advantage for the wolves. The situation on Unimak is quite sad. Unfortunately it is somewhat better than the situation across False Pass' narrow straits to the mainland, where the southern Alaska caribou herd is also in severe decline. On that side, the state is aggressively controlling wolves. Clearly there are many factors to the caribou decline but only one is easily identifiable and easily remedied, and that's the wolf problem. I hope something changes very soon so that there's reason and an infrastructure in place that allows folks like you the opportunity to see one of the most remote places on earth. As for Rod? We permanently dismantled and removed his base camp. As of last week he had no intention of chasing caribou on Unimak in the future. The primary piece of Unimak transportation infrastructure leaves with Rod.
In summary? I still have no strong opinion of the wolf issue in unit 16B. I have a very strong and determined position about the wolves on the southern Alaska Peninsula and the Aleutian Islands after having visited there and seeing for myself what is happening. Those wolves need to be controlled. Now. But damn, they're hard to get close to on foot.
My comments are in no way addressing other critical habitat areas in the state. I'm only addressing the areas with which I'm familiar. I welcome any comment from anyone else who's been in these areas lately. If you haven't seen Unimak lately with your own eyes, you can't imagine how bad the problem is.
Respectfully,
Stewart
Cafi, I'm not pickin' on you, just that YOU said a couple things I haft'a disagree with.
Thank you for your open-mindedness, BTW.
SOME hunters are mainly interested in a trophy for a wall-hanger.
SOME hunters are true nature-lovin' sportsmen, and harvesting some munchies is a bonus.
SOME hunters are a combination, & desire that freezer full of munchies.
ALL predators (wolves/whatever) will kill whatever they are able, in order to get those munchies they require. My limited experience is that wolves kill what they need to survive. The cat family of predators will kill & leave much for the scavengers. I "respect" them less than wolves.
Well, we ARE a part of this environment. We are more able to make a diff in the balance of things tho, so we need to (should) be careful. Nature IS a series of imbalances. It's how it balances itself.
So, the humans in your neighborhood has eliminated the competition for deer, and now are overrun with deer. A perfect example for my mantra of all things in moderation. I say keep a balance, not go to extremes.
Also, there are many different reasons to have a population of any given species (even Dem's & Repub's!)whether we choose to like 'em or not.
Eg: I like seeing beavers (our national rodent) swimming around & doing their antics, but when they start to cause problems in the yard (or the road) we haft'a cull 'em a bit, and still enjoy the ones that are left. Soon, tho, there will be beaver rights groups & our properties, roads, trout spawning beds, etc will just have to deal w/it.
Live & let live, but try to keep some semblance of a balance, it's best for all concerned than extreme swings from feast/famine.
Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"
Well lets see, toss up between SJ and (intentional name deleted). Looks like you are a hunter. A Cougar ... perhaps.
Why, buzzards need to eat too.
Don't know about your wolves, but our coyotes and wolves will go thru a band of sheep and leave a pretty good mess if the notion strikes them.
The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it....
There is no question, it is in fact documented, that wolves will kill and not eat. If able, they will kill everything in sight, eating only a bit of one animal, or several chunks of each animal.
Wolves will also remove large chunks of hind end muscle from living animals, the result of which is a handicapped animal that will likely die a long slow death.
Wolves are what they are! I respect and love wolves, I do not want them exterminated. I wish more people were informed about the reality rather than believe the lies of the animal-"rights" groups.
Another reality is that we are able to manage the populations for higher numbers of wolf and prey, simply by removing a number of wolves before the ungulates reach a critical point "of no return". (Actually, a point of "20-30 years before return", rather).
DAVE
You drive, I'll gun!!
And I won't fly with just anybody!!!
Brad
I've never seen anything like that. But, if it's documented...
My experience is seeing deer/moose carcases cleaned up within days, but like I said, my experience with these critters is limited.
That's what I kinda said, in my broken english
I am glad we have such a thing as wolves. They are a highly evolved & social animal which is quite fascinating. It's not pretty to see what they do, but like MTV says, "It's what they do". At least it's not as wasteful as some of the things I've seen "natives" do.
Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"
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