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estimated time and cost to recover PA18 fuselage?

In my opinion the word Rebuild is exactly what Steve refers to as an IRAN.
In my industry major pieces of components are rebuilt and can be done so in the field.
Restoration and or Re manufacture- this term reserved for a COMPLETE tear down and a return to at least meet or exceed the manufacturers specifications by replacement of major components.

Modifications and or Updates are to add components to enhance or improve upon the original manufacturers intent. Normally the technology was not available during the original manufacture.

Ron is performing a Restoration and modification to his L-21
VERSUS
Christina is performing a Rebuild and modification to her L-21

To the potential buyer and to the life of the aircraft these are two totally seperate methods. Apples and Oranges. Taking two extremely different time frames.

I have been fortunate enough to see John's, Steve's and Bob's workmanship all are exceptional.

My two cents
John
 
citabrickr said:
12 Geezer said:
After over 20 years self-employed, I know it's sometimes prudent to present as less than enthusiastic to some would-be customers.

She's a very good customer, I have always done everything I can to accommodate her as well as I hope she can attest to. My only reluctance to the job may have been meeting her time line, but I was envisioning doing quite a bit more work than what was done.

John, and my previous post aside, you are a very good mechanic, and I will attest to that! You do absolutely beautiful fabric work, as everyone will attest to.

I just got the feeling that your "short cut" comment was indeed sour grapes, maybe I was being too sensitive. No one that's been seeing the project has thought that Bob was taking any shortcuts, it's just that some things just needed to be done, and some things didn't. You're more than welcome to ask Damian his thoughts -- he was there everyday. Although he isn't a mechanic, he's seen more than his share of projects.

Let's take the rest offline, like you suggested.
 
Well....

Now that we have figured out the difference between a rebuild and restoration......


It all depends on who is doing the job, where they are doing the job, the experience, organization, tools, and most importantly................................................................. the flow of money.

Drowning in J-5 Parts.

Tim
 
Everybody's definition of "rebuild" is different. Here's mine.

Before.....

pa_12_11-10-03_015.jpg



And after.

11-13-05_PA-12_first_flight_001.jpg


Stewart
 
To me? a restoration would imply I restored it to original condition. I didn't. I re-built it.

No matter. I've got no dog in this fight. The discussion has identified diverse perception, for sure. I like my plane. I hope you're as happy with yours. It's all good.

Stewart
 
Fabman said:
Disassembly. 20 Hours

Welding repairs - Replaced 8 ea tubes and extensive modification for cables to run under the floor tubes and behind the walls of interior. 50 Hours

Welding mods, Top "X", front and rear shoulder harness, seat belt tabs on the floor, second lifting handle, extended lower baggage & 180 lb 3rd seat, bush tail spring bolt, 3' metal belly, check all gear and wing fittings and fwd trim pulley hole, strap for the stab. Drag wire att. AD, nut for the zirk on rear stab. att. bracket. ELT and strobe mount. Minimum 25 hours

Parts prep and repair prior to recoating. 25 hours

Build new interior, upper and lower baggage’s, custom headliner for AG model. 70 hours

Build and wire new panel. 50 hours

Install all parts, floor boards, rudder peddles, brakes, seat base, tork tube, cables, trim system, fuel lines, stringers. Fit boot cowl and fairings. 50 hours

Cover & paint fuselage. 40 hours

Recover and paint control surfaces. 40 hours

Gross weight increase and fabric repair and new paint on the wings.
50 hours

Prep and paint fairings and boot/cowling. 30 hours

Assembly, hang the motor, cowling, tail, wings and surfaces, sky light, windshield and glass. 70 hours

Total Time 520 hours from log.


Cub was not wrecked, tore apart 12/13/06, first flight was May 4/07 to Airman’s show from Merrill Field last year. Took off 4 weeks during the REBUILD.

Started second REBUILD 4/15/07 and finished 8/22/07. It was wrecked and with new fuselage I had over 600 hours in it.

So just curious.... jigging and blasting the fuselage is not listed above. Was this done?

If not, then Steve is this considered a "rebuild" or an "IRAN" (new term for me)? I am really confused. Flying Miss Daisy had a good definition, but methinks that you disagree with that definition.
 
Hi Teeweed,
I am not a mechanic, but covered my cub under the supervision of one. Once all the prep work was complete (a real long time) the fuselage took one week to cover and paint (not incuding the stripes) The wings took two weeks again painted but not striped. This was alone, and using Airtech. It is not an Osh Kosh plane, but airworthy and ok to look at. I spent right at 3K on materials, but probably paid more than I should have on haz mat shipping since I made several smaller orders rather than getting everything at once.

StewartB said:
Everybody's definition of "rebuild" is different. Here's mine.
Thanks SB
This could not be said any better!

Flying Miss Daisy said:
In my opinion the word Rebuild is exactly what Steve refers to as an IRAN.

My opinion is: this is Bogus... by this notion, since I will IRAN (Inspect and Replace As Necessary) my cubs engine before I fly it this evening I will have rebuilt it? How cool is that? 8)

coincidently... while I did bead blast, inspect, and expoxy prime the fuselage, replace all hardware, pulleys, cables, hoses, wiring, and sheetmetal (both inside and out) I do not consider my cub rebuilt. I just "spruced it up some" :wink: The engine (low-mid time) was essentially untouched and many other areas could have been addressed in my opinion before I would consider it a complete rebuild...
 
Christina, I guess you need to go back to those posts you read about people rebuilding their airplanes in 8 months to a year and find out what their definition was since you compared your 4 months worth of work to their 8-12 months. I rebuild/restore airplanes. Define it however you want. It comes in with 50-60 years worth of rust, corrosion, damage, previous repairs etc. It leaves better than new and should last 30 years before it needs to be recovered. I don't think you still get the point of my comments. We will just say that your mechanic is far superior than anyone posting on this site because he can do what he did in 4 months where others post it takes them 8-12.

My Dad recovered his left wing one winter. The next winter he recovered his right wing. The next winter we overhauled the engine and redid everything firewall forward. The next winter he re-did his instrument panel and interior. Finally in Oct. 2004 he brought it here where we disassembled the airplane, blasted the fuselage, replaced the bad tubing and primed and paint the frame, gear and tail feathers. He came back here in January and worked till the first of June recovering his fuselage, gear and tail feathers. I built all new cowling, boot cowl and door skins. We reassembled everything and he went to the Short Wing Piper convention and won the Peoples Choice, Workmanship and Grand Champion Awards along with Grand Champion Custom Classic awards at Oshkosh and Sun & Fun. Did he rebuild his airplane in 5 months? I don't think so.
 
Aahhhh, guys, y'all need to lay off each other. This is beginning to be one of those semantics arguments that goes better around the fire with a beer in hand where one can see the others faces. Too much of this is being done without emoticons ( Cloudy, where are you!?!?! ).

The bottom line is that what Christina had done was not a bare frame up job. She did what her mechanic (engineer to you feriners) thought was necessary and installed some extras in conjunction with re-covering the fuselage. That work was done in 4 months.

Christina is happy with the results and (apparently) in the opinion of her mechanic no further fuselage work was warranted.

Recover - rebuild - restore I've heard too many people use those words interchangeably, though maybe wrongly in some opinions! :lol:

Anybody got a substantive answer to teeweeds original question? I know I don't. :roll: 8)

John Scott
 
Recover with a mechanic who is not lazy and not with too much work
3-4 Months.
Rebuild with modifications- 4-6 months same mechanic requirement

Recover with modifications- 8-12 months same mechanic requirement

The end of the thread Priceless
 
I see two sides to this...

Customer that thinks... and


Mechanic that know...

Expectations and desires... so many variants! Just like airplanes

Fadec
AP/IA
 
I spent 7 hours this afternoon bead blasting parts for one wing, a wing I initially wasn't going to take apart (to save time and money). I decided an aileron rib was too damaged to be worth fixing so dismantled the wing enough to put that rib in, found a bent spar. Disassembled the whole wing and upon bead blasting the parts found quite a few I'm not going to reuse. So again, without a complete disassembly and blasting, inspecting, painting, hardware replacement you aren't "rebuilding" anything, and potentially not finding many underlying problems. The parts I blasted have two post-Piper primer coats over them plus the original Piper black...so they have been played with at least once, possibly twice in the past, but never cleaned down to the metal for a good look. I'd say I'm going to replace 1/4 of the steel parts in the wing after today.
 
We tore Laura's L21 wings down a few months ago. Pre-tear down inspection revealed some bent ribs etc. but after dis-assembly we found a bent rear spar. After blasting all the steel the aileron and flap hinges were too pitted to reuse. The pitting was found where they attach to the false spar. I have torn down 7 sets of wings in the past two years. The only set that didn't need the hinges replaced on was the 82 model. Had to replace the strut attach fittings on one set. I predict an AD on the steel in the not to distant future.
 
In and out of the jig about 3 hours (inculded in welding repair time) it was in suprisingly great shape for a 58 AG model, blasted and powder coated. 77D in my photo gallery.
 
Christina Young said:
StewartB said:
Everybody's definition of "rebuild" is different. Here's mine.

No, that's a restoration... :bang


and one must be careful with the word "rebuild/rebuilt"....think it(and what is entailed) is defined in the FAR's... think Dan's got in trouble over that a few years ago....

in my book rebuild is a much fancier job than restoration.......

and you("me") are defined only by the *worst* job you turn out... so if you call a partial job a rebuild, then that will be what you will be judged by..... no mater if you do more 10 full ones.......................apples... oranges...applges.....
 
Everything we do is a restoration. If you put rebuilt on your 337, the FAA will reject it and give you a phone call. The only people that can REBUILD a part, component or anything including the entire aircraft is the MANUFACTURER of that part, component or aircraft. So basically, if you want a REBUILD, take your cub to Piper.

Friend of mine had a nice long conversation with the FAA because he stated that he rebuilt his cub on the 337. That is a big no no and can get you into a bunch of trouble. fortunately for him, he just had to redo his 337 with the wording changed.

Like mike says, check your FAR's, its in there.

As for Teeweeds question.

It obviously depends on your mechanic and how much work is performed. The last cub that I did as a complete restoration took 8 months. That was with a new fuselage, wings and tons of mods. The one before that took 6 months. That was tear down, jig the frame, install X brace, seat belt attach, CC extended baggage, replace bent spar in one wing etc....
The cub that belonged to my friend that I mentioned above took him over a year. He did two at once, one on Whiplines and one on Bushwheels. He is an A&P IA and works a 3 week on 3 week off schedule for a helicopter outfit. Worked on the cubs pretty much full time on his off times.

Brian.
 
Hey Teeweed,
While I was picking up my cub from CC i watched two people cover the fuselage of a top cub in 1 day. (including taking time out to talk to me and explain what they were doing) It then went to dope - 1 day, then to paint. all finished in less than a week!
 
Brian:
You are correct, it's not a rebuild, it's a repair or restoration. Only Mfg. can rebuild.
 
Steve Pierce said:
After blasting all the steel the aileron and flap hinges were too pitted to reuse. The pitting was found where they attach to the false spar. I have torn down 7 sets of wings in the past two years. The only set that didn't need the hinges replaced on was the 82 model. Had to replace the strut attach fittings on one set. I predict an AD on the steel in the not to distant future.

I took Clyde Smith's restoration seminar approximately 7 years ago, and he predicted an AD back then! I recall his mentioning having worked with the FAA on the subject.
 
I just spent the last year learning more than I ever thought I would want to know about my PA-12, "Flip". Pretty much a complete rebuild, but I kept the floorboards & the altimeter. I put in about 800 hrs & the mechanics put in about 550 hrs (I'm twice as slow). That included welding a few new tubes to replace the bent ones and adding a basket full of mods. The fabric supplies, tapes, rib stitch stuff, poly-this & poly-that, came to about $3800. Flip's back to flying now & it's all worth it! :angel:
 
Congratulations Wendy. I know you are happy.Can't wait to catch up with you and here about some more of your adventures. :lol:
 
ooooooh boy! Have I got some stories to tell around the campfire this summer.....! It took me a year, but I found the silver lining in that flip of mine, it probably saved my life, literally. The new & improved Flip is awesome. It's an ear-to-ear permanent grin kind of fun plane to fly.

I'm sorry to say, though, that my enthusiasm for my Pacer expired on Flip's first flight day. ......but for anyone who's interested, I have a real nice 1960 Pacer for sale, full IFR, 500hrs SMOH & so much more
 
Windy, you truly are a testament to perseverance and personal intestinal fortitude. The day you started on that project I have to admit that I thought you would be better off calling Peppers (local scrap dealers) to come and get it and then take out a subscription to Trade-a-Plane to find a SUPERCUB. What you're failing to mention is the drive you made every weekend and every holiday, some days to do nothing but sit and dream about the first flight......other days to put in 14 hours or more sanding and taping and painting and sanding, mostly lighting fires under peoples fannies to get movin' cause summer is just around the bend. I'm amazed and proud to know you..... Here's to you.....(take a peek at my Avatar) :cheers
 
time to rebuild

I would like somebody to discuss the pros and cons (in terms of cost, time and quality) of the big shops: Cubcrafters, Legend, Dan's etc. vs. small shops with one or more true craftsmen doing a rebuild (or restore or whatever the proper term is).

I like the idea of a small shop really going through my airplane, but the thought of it being down for a year or more is hard to deal with.

That being said, I want a safe and good looking airplane that won't need new fabric for a long time.
 
Ed, That is a very good question and you have got me doing some serious thinking on the pros and cons of both. I will post my thoughts and experiences when I get a little more time.
 
Here's what I've seen, assuming we're talking J-3, PA-11, PA-18:

Big Shop
Pro -
More parts in house (less down time, less shipping)
They usually have the specialized tools (Jigs, etc...)
Can buy in bulk and pass the savings (questionable these days)
Specialize in that Make/Model and are intimately familiar with them
Depending on the shop; Well trained workers
Generally less of a surprise on the quote. If they Quote "X", it won't be "X+$$$" at roll out.

Con's -
Depending on the shop; day labors
Generally more expensive
Less Personal. You'll talk with the shop owner, not the guy working on the airplane.
Specialized workers (Cleatus is the only fabric guy, but just broke his leg)
Bumped by someone needing their plane fixed and who has a lot of money to have it fixed now (line jumper)

Little Shops
Pro -
Closer to home, easier to inspect progress
More Personal service
Little shops tend to do it your way, not the way they've done the last 20 airplanes
If you find the right shop, Same level of experience as the Big Shops
Generally a little less expensive.
Well rounded staff (everybody and do a little of everything; weld, fabric, engines etc...)

Con's -
Less workers in the shop
Usually have other work coming and going (Local annuals and other maintenance)
Takes more time
Can have un-expected cost (taking you fuselage to the Big Shop and using their Jig)
Dealing with a small company that is more susceptible to financial troubles



Some might think thats BS, but it's a start.

nkh (small shop operator)
 
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