Providing no other unforeseen obstacles, with two guys working full time. What should I expect for material cost and time frame? thanks teeweed
Providing no other unforeseen obstacles, with two guys working full time. What should I expect for material cost and time frame? thanks teeweed
Well... If you can wait a year and take it to PierceAero I hear tell a group will show up and do it for you.
The issue of man hours/cost to cover a complete Super Cub has been discussed before. I think I remember a guesstimate of 1000 man hours.
While I respect the folks that use Cubs to make a living, my uses are for recreation and leisure - AND I'M NOT ASHAMED!!!
Covering is one thing. Repairing, restoring, etc, is another
How is yours going Chuck? Got a note from Vicki. I think she is ready to come home.
You can cover a fuselage in a weekend. it is the prep that takes all the time. Never seen a fuselage ready to cover. not even Ron's. Taping takes another day. It all depends on the details and how nice a job you want. Also how many tapes you install. Piper and Cub Crafters don't tape the longerons or stringers. The Polyfiber manual gives a material list. I just checked price for materials to cover an entire airplane at about $3600.
I just bought all of the materials to cover my fuselage and tail feathers and with shipping it was $2800, that was for ceconite and dope. As for time to cover I am planing on 150hr, but I have over 250hr into prep and that is with a new Airframe Inc fuselage and tail feathers and still have more to do. I also plan 80hr for my A&P to do the wiring and engine install.
If you're replacing anything, allow LOTS of time to get it in your hands.
Or maybe that's just the rule for Canucks.
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You are just asking about the fabric recovering portion once everything else has already been done (i.e. any mods / repairs / priming / painting or powder coating of frame already done)?Originally Posted by teeweed
Well it took the guy who is rebuilding my cub a day..... 9 hours to be exact. But he is a workaholic and also experienced (I think mine is his 27th rebuild or something like that).
Then it took about a week to do all the painting of the fuselage fabric (including all my Army stuff spray-masked etc).
That is it for the fabric recovering and painting of the fuselage.
My L-21B is almost done with complete rebuild. It went into rebuild just before Thanksgiving, and is only awaiting 2 parts (prop to come back from overhaul, and one other thing). It would be done by now if it wasn't for those things.
I read on this site some posts before that it takes 8 months to a year to rebuild a cub, but I no longer believe it. I think that's just if the person doing it is inexperienced or lazy or not really working on it very much. Mine will be done in about 4 months with breaks for holidays and with my rebuild mechanic working on a couple of other projects at the same time (including a complete J-3 rebuild too).
Another thing that may have been a factor is that I worked with parts suppliers for all my mods and repairs to make sure he always had what he needed when he needed it. In that regard we only had one real hold up (one of the two items above), and it is a custom made item.
With no clean, prime, replace parts etc, straight cover job, I can do one in 160-200 hrs, depending on whether I like you or not. Certainly won't be an Osh Kosh job, but perfectly legal and better than average, if I do say so myself.
If you want the Osh Kosh job, take it to Anchorage to some of the expensive shops, for some reason their time is work about twice what mine is.
I'd figure around 3K for materials, that may be higher now with the increase in shipping.
Christina, That comes out to around 640 hours if you figure a 40 hour work week for 16 weeks. That is fast. Can you tell us what all was done. I try to see how efficient I am compared to other mechanics. I know it is a big help if the owner gets all the parts. It is a big time burner looking up parts and trying to get them all on time. Sounds like you will have a great trip to AK this year in a new SC.
Steve, yes but he works non-stop, and once he gets going he is "driven" to get a task done and doesn't stop. Most of the time not even for breaks. And he specializes in rebuild and recover projects, not run of the mill mechanic work like annuals and fixing broken airplanes. So he doesn't really have any interruptions, just work already scheduled in advance.Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
Since the job was done at Aeroflex where I keep my planes, I was able to check frequently what replacement parts might be needed in the forthcoming weeks and order them immediately. All the mods I ordered up front before the job even started -- we put together a plan before the plane was even pulled into the hangar.
Here are the mods that were installed: 2000 lb gross wt kit, 24 gal long range tanks (both sides), headerless fuel system, Atlee float fittings, Steve's gascolator, X-brace, Dan's under-seat battery installation. That may not sound like a lot, but in the past 4 years I have already added a lot of other mods like extended gear, light-wt starter, LEES, lifetime struts, two different panel rebuilds etc. So I guess the previous mods already there probably saved time too.
As far as repairs go, we replaced all the hardware like springs, cables, control surface & flap hinges, etc. The wings were pretty bad, they were full of mud (!), the wood was rotted, several ribs corroded. All those were replaced.
On the other hand, the fuselage was in great shape. Perfectly straight (no bends) and no corrosion at all except below where the battery box was, apparently where battery acid had dripped down on a tube. It was cut out and a new one welded in. The whole fuselage was cleaned primed, epoxied, etc. All the glass replaced & new window fittings.
Everything recovered & repainted in stitts-polyfiber (with heavy duty fabric).
The plane looks great right now, and you're right I can't wait to fly it to Alaska!
Congratulations. Post some pictures, would love to see it.
Your airplane is being recovered, not restored, very different story. Not accurate to call it a "complete rebuild" at all. Sheet metal never removed or painted, cockpit interior not refurbished, floor not removed, panel not removed, no engine area work, no blasting of the fuselage, gear legs not recovered. For what was done the timeframe is normal.Originally Posted by Christina Young
Thanks for clearing that up citabrickr. I thought I was really slow.
Christina, et.al., GREAT project management Kinda how I TRY to do my projects, and of course depends on rapport with your mechanics.
And a well thought-out set of mods, at least to my taste, but I can see it's based on your experience and how you plan to operate.
Piling on, looking forward to new pix.
John, your partly right and partly wrong. The floor was indeed removed. It had to be in order to weld on the Atlee Dodge front seat belt attach points. Which sheet metal are you talking about? some was removed and some wasn't.Originally Posted by citabrickr
Panel didn't need to be removed (2 rebuilds by you over the past 4 years or so, as mentioned above), gear legs didn't need to be recovered (you did that over a year ago when we went to the new gear, like I previously mentioned in this thread).
Engine didn't need any work (except temporary removal in order to move the fuselage). It's in great shape and less than half time to recommended overhaul. Fuselage was pristine.
I already mentioned these items, what was done and what was not done previously in this thread.
I think Bob Hunt did a fabulous job, given the fact that he is also rebuilding a J-3, and doing work for a demonstration squadron of T-6's, all in parallel.
My primary purpose was to 1) replace the fabric and paint (which as you know the dope was cracking and falling off), 2) do some mods which will both enhance safety and ability to fly in remote parts of Alaska, and 3) fix anything we found that was needed to be fixed. My requirement was to have it completed by early June, in time for Alaska. Bob was the only one that committed to that time. We finished early. And I will admit partly from luck, the fuselage was great and didn't need to be jigged or blasted. But on the flipside the wings were in worse shape than expected.
So it sounds like your Cub wasn't completely rebuilt in 4 months like your first post said. I took your remark as a slam to the people who rebuild Cubs and give away their intellectual property. A rebuild to me is a complete rebuild. All the steel comes out of the wings, gets blasted, epoxy primed and top coated. Fuselage gets blasted, repaired, epoxy primed and top coated. Ailerons and flaps get the steel fittings removed, blasted, primed and painted. Tail feathers etc. I do these things because I have seen what is hidden. No problem with how your airplane was redone just how it was presented in your first post. I would call it an IRAN personally. Inspect, repair as necessary. Apples to apples not apples to oranges.
Steve, I don't know what you mean by "give away intellectual property". Can you please ellaborate?Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
Some of the items were indeed blasted, but the fuselage was not. The steel fittings on the ailerons and flaps were completely replaced. I told you that other items were done over the past 4 years in the 2nd post above. I think that 4 months for what he did was extremely fast. It was there for everyone to see at any time, everyone who came by and saw how fast and hard he was working was surprised.
There are a lot of experienced people on this site that post their experiences, tricks and techniques. I think it is what makes this site so great. Bob Turner sent me a picture of his J-3 he rebuilt in the 1960s and the note on the back summed it up. "I have never learned so much so fast as I have on supercub.org". I agree 100%.
I think your mechanic did a lot of work in a short period of time but not exactly what the above quote leads one to believe.I read on this site some posts before that it takes 8 months to a year to rebuild a cub, but I no longer believe it. I think that's just if the person doing it is inexperienced or lazy or not really working on it very much. Mine will be done in about 4 months with breaks for holidays and with my rebuild mechanic working on a couple of other projects at the same time (including a complete J-3 rebuild too).
I took the "Intellectual Property" quote from you.
Didn't feel entitled, just thought it would be nice to see a small piece of it. Like I said I think the sharing is what makes supercub.org so great.Steve Pierce wrote:
I would like to see it but Texas is a long way from NJ.
Would be nice to put something on the site. I bet it wouldn't have been as memorable an experience without SC.org.
Christina Young wrote:
I already have put a few pictures from the trip on the site, you can look under my name and see them. Maybe I'll put a few more sometime when I get a chance.
But I don't understand why you guys want me to post my presentation - my intellectual property into which I put my time and effort - for free. If I choose to give presentations for free (like the one this weekend) or for a speaking fee, or choose to post it, well that's my perogative. But you shouldn't feel that you're entitled to it.
So now I see what got under your skin. Look Steve, I posted quite a few pictures of Alaska that I took, you can go in my gallery on this site and look at them anytime.Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
When I posted in this thread, I wrote about what myself and probably most people would consider a rebuild. I could make the argument by using your criteria that it's not a total rebuild unless only the dataplate is the same. Everything else is just bolt-on, order it and put it together. In that case, a total rebuild shouldn't take very long at all.
At the other end of the scale, my 12 re-used the torque tube, 4 spars and about a dozen ribs. That was it. Everything else was new. Superman couldn't have done my plane in 4 months. Instead, 2 very well respected mechanics tag-teamed the project with occasional interference (disguised as help) from an owner and we muddled through it in about 2 1/2 years. We weren't in a hurry.
I have been watching these posts and the numbers all look too small from what I know about the shops here in Minnesota. I know numbers from friends who have had NEW certified Super Cubs built with all new parts in three different shops, and the labor bills added up in each case to $70 - 80K. The time frames were 12 to 14 months. These are all show quality "City" SCs and I'm not sure you are all talking about that level of rebuild or more of a "Working" SC. Anyway that is the experience around here. I would think if anything, it would cost more in labor to take one apart, fix it all and rebuild to the same standards. God knows it took me years of part time labor to get mine ready to cover.
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It might be instructive to ask Dan (of Dan's aircraft) how long it took to build up the raffle cub at this year's AK Airman's trade show. I don't think its done yet, but should be ready by May 3 or 4.
Christina, you are missing the point as to what "most" people consider a "complete rebuild". All of the items Steve mentioned are normal to most people. Uncovering a fuselage that has had fabric on it for over 30 years and not blasting, inspecting, epoxy priming it is..well, an odd short cut to take for the sake of speed. That can't be done with the interior in, panel installed and boot cowl still on. If you are happy with the outcome then that is all that matters, but other than the mods and minor repairs you mentioned all that has been achieved is new fabric and paint on that fabric. My concern was that the wing hardware be addressed, that was more important than anything else, especially cosmetics.Originally Posted by Christina Young
John, if you are going to quote figures like this, please make sure what you are saying is correct first. First of all, it hasn't been 30 years. It was last rebuilt in 1988, which you know.Originally Posted by citabrickr
It was indeed given a thorough inspection and was epoxy primed. It didn't need to be blasted or jigged. But then again you could have stopped in the hangar next door any time you wanted to see what work needed to be done and that this work was being done.
Bob did NOT take any "short cuts". I believe that this comment in particular is just sour grapes. I offered this job to you before anyone else. I got a less than enthusiastic response from you. I'm glad that at least you were straightforward about that.
As I said, I indeed lucked out with the fuselage. It didn't need any major repairs.
definition of complete rebuild - (1) Remove the spinner (2) Replace everything aft of the spinner (3) When all that is completed, buy a new spinner. Don't forget to shine the dataplate before it goes back on. And how did this thread wander to argue about whether someone did or did not rebuild their airplane and to the extent of the rebuild. I wonder if teeweed was able to sift through the BS to find the real answer to his question.
After over 20 years self-employed, I know it's sometimes prudent to present as less than enthusiastic to some would-be customers.
My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
Christina, I didn't memorize the year it was covered, sorry, the condition was that of 30 plus years, as I said, my concern was for the poor condition of the wing hinges, damaged stitching and tip bows/corrosion.Originally Posted by Christina Young
How can it be inspected without blasting it? I saw the complete cockpit area /forward structure and that looked untouched with the original brown Piper paint. I looked in thru the battery door but don't recall anything looking primed in there as well but really wasn't focusing on that. Putting fabric on without blasting and priming the complete fuselage (if that makes it more clear) is not thorough, it is a shortcut for speed, anyone here will tell you that.Originally Posted by Christina Young
I never knew where your plane was or who was doing the work till I saw the wings come in one day on Bob's trailer, it was news to me, you never discussed it with me and by then it was done already. I did go look at the fuselage on the trailer when Bob had to take it home to finish the paint and he and I talked about how it went.Originally Posted by Christina Young
I'm pretty offended by your "sour grapes" comment. I have no problems with Bob doing any work on anything, any time. He could use my shop if he needed to and we frequently barter materials back and forth when we run short. He was even concerned that I may be upset that he did the work and I hope I make it as clear to you as I did to him that it doesn't bother me in the slightest, I have plenty to keep me busy. When you offered me the job (that I had commented should be done at a minimum to the wings because of their condition) you emailed me a list of things that you wanted done. I said the basic fabric work would take 3 months, the other stuff longer. I remember you weren't sure about some of the changes and we talked about them, I don't remember any final decisions being made. I only recall two email exchanges about it, that was all I heard on the subject. As a matter of fact I put off a winter recover job on a J-3 because I hadn't heard back from you yet but as a minimum I was expecting to do your wings. All of that stuff is between us anyway, not the point of this thread but I have never been deceptive about anything at any time to anyone, as you know I am straightforward to a fault.Originally Posted by Christina Young
Again, all that matters is that you are happy, but calling the work done a "complete rebuild" is inaccurate, it was a recover with some minor repairs and mods, no doubt it is safer though.Originally Posted by Christina Young
She's a very good customer, I have always done everything I can to accommodate her as well as I hope she can attest to. My only reluctance to the job may have been meeting her time line, but I was envisioning doing quite a bit more work than what was done.Originally Posted by 12 Geezer
Disassembly. 20 Hours
Welding repairs - Replaced 8 ea tubes and extensive modification for cables to run under the floor tubes and behind the walls of interior. 50 Hours
Welding mods, Top "X", front and rear shoulder harness, seat belt tabs on the floor, second lifting handle, extended lower baggage & 180 lb 3rd seat, bush tail spring bolt, 3' metal belly, check all gear and wing fittings and fwd trim pulley hole, strap for the stab. Drag wire att. AD, nut for the zirk on rear stab. att. bracket. ELT and strobe mount. Minimum 25 hours
Parts prep and repair prior to recoating. 25 hours
Build new interior, upper and lower baggage’s, custom headliner for AG model. 70 hours
Build and wire new panel. 50 hours
Install all parts, floor boards, rudder peddles, brakes, seat base, tork tube, cables, trim system, fuel lines, stringers. Fit boot cowl and fairings. 50 hours
Cover & paint fuselage. 40 hours
Recover and paint control surfaces. 40 hours
Gross weight increase and fabric repair and new paint on the wings.
Prep and paint fairings and boot/cowling. 30 hours
Assembly, hang the motor, cowling, tail, wings and surfaces, sky light, windshield and glass. 70 hours
Total Time 520 hours from log.
Cub was not wrecked, tore apart 12/13/06, first flight was May 4/07 to Airman’s show from Merrill Field last year. Took off 4 weeks during the REBUILD.
Started second REBUILD 4/15/07 and finished 8/22/07. It was wrecked and with new fuselage I had over 600 hours in it.
That is what, as you say, "got under my skin".Originally Posted by Christina Young
My opinion on jigging a fuselage. I think you owe it to yourself to do some serious measuring of any fuselage prior to recovering even if it has never been damaged. Piper didn't get them all right when they were new and it is very easy to check and correct any discrepancies prior to recover. There are several people on this site that can attest to the benefits they gained in the flight characteristics of their Super Cubs with minimal effort.
In my opinion the word Rebuild is exactly what Steve refers to as an IRAN.
In my industry major pieces of components are rebuilt and can be done so in the field.
Restoration and or Re manufacture- this term reserved for a COMPLETE tear down and a return to at least meet or exceed the manufacturers specifications by replacement of major components.
Modifications and or Updates are to add components to enhance or improve upon the original manufacturers intent. Normally the technology was not available during the original manufacture.
Ron is performing a Restoration and modification to his L-21
Christina is performing a Rebuild and modification to her L-21
To the potential buyer and to the life of the aircraft these are two totally seperate methods. Apples and Oranges. Taking two extremely different time frames.
I have been fortunate enough to see John's, Steve's and Bob's workmanship all are exceptional.
My two cents
John, and my previous post aside, you are a very good mechanic, and I will attest to that! You do absolutely beautiful fabric work, as everyone will attest to.Originally Posted by citabrickr
I just got the feeling that your "short cut" comment was indeed sour grapes, maybe I was being too sensitive. No one that's been seeing the project has thought that Bob was taking any shortcuts, it's just that some things just needed to be done, and some things didn't. You're more than welcome to ask Damian his thoughts -- he was there everyday. Although he isn't a mechanic, he's seen more than his share of projects.
Let's take the rest offline, like you suggested.
Now that we have figured out the difference between a rebuild and restoration......
It all depends on who is doing the job, where they are doing the job, the experience, organization, tools, and most importantly....................................... .......................... the flow of money.
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Everybody's definition of "rebuild" is different. Here's mine.
No, that's a restoration...Originally Posted by StewartB
To me? a restoration would imply I restored it to original condition. I didn't. I re-built it.
No matter. I've got no dog in this fight. The discussion has identified diverse perception, for sure. I like my plane. I hope you're as happy with yours. It's all good.
So just curious.... jigging and blasting the fuselage is not listed above. Was this done?Originally Posted by Fabman
If not, then Steve is this considered a "rebuild" or an "IRAN" (new term for me)? I am really confused. Flying Miss Daisy had a good definition, but methinks that you disagree with that definition.
I am not a mechanic, but covered my cub under the supervision of one. Once all the prep work was complete (a real long time) the fuselage took one week to cover and paint (not incuding the stripes) The wings took two weeks again painted but not striped. This was alone, and using Airtech. It is not an Osh Kosh plane, but airworthy and ok to look at. I spent right at 3K on materials, but probably paid more than I should have on haz mat shipping since I made several smaller orders rather than getting everything at once.
Thanks SBOriginally Posted by StewartB
This could not be said any better!
My opinion is: this is Bogus... by this notion, since I will IRAN (Inspect and Replace As Necessary) my cubs engine before I fly it this evening I will have rebuilt it? How cool is that?Originally Posted by Flying Miss Daisy
coincidently... while I did bead blast, inspect, and expoxy prime the fuselage, replace all hardware, pulleys, cables, hoses, wiring, and sheetmetal (both inside and out) I do not consider my cub rebuilt. I just "spruced it up some" The engine (low-mid time) was essentially untouched and many other areas could have been addressed in my opinion before I would consider it a complete rebuild...
Christina, I guess you need to go back to those posts you read about people rebuilding their airplanes in 8 months to a year and find out what their definition was since you compared your 4 months worth of work to their 8-12 months. I rebuild/restore airplanes. Define it however you want. It comes in with 50-60 years worth of rust, corrosion, damage, previous repairs etc. It leaves better than new and should last 30 years before it needs to be recovered. I don't think you still get the point of my comments. We will just say that your mechanic is far superior than anyone posting on this site because he can do what he did in 4 months where others post it takes them 8-12.
My Dad recovered his left wing one winter. The next winter he recovered his right wing. The next winter we overhauled the engine and redid everything firewall forward. The next winter he re-did his instrument panel and interior. Finally in Oct. 2004 he brought it here where we disassembled the airplane, blasted the fuselage, replaced the bad tubing and primed and paint the frame, gear and tail feathers. He came back here in January and worked till the first of June recovering his fuselage, gear and tail feathers. I built all new cowling, boot cowl and door skins. We reassembled everything and he went to the Short Wing Piper convention and won the Peoples Choice, Workmanship and Grand Champion Awards along with Grand Champion Custom Classic awards at Oshkosh and Sun & Fun. Did he rebuild his airplane in 5 months? I don't think so.