Cylinders

[Lance]

OK. I know this has been hashed out a zillion times but....

What is the word on favorite cylinders for an O320?

Two mechanics so far and 1 for lycoming Nitried and 1 for ECI Nickel.

I am doing an overhaul and trying to decide. O320 Narrow Deck.

Lance

Yes, I did a search but lord it is a lot of reading.

[fadec]

I don't think you could go wrong with either one, but if it where mine I'd put the ECI's on it

[JP]

ECI nickel

[Roger Peterson]

ECI Nickel

[benflyn]

Talk to steve tubbs at performance air 208-455-7400 he'll tell you everything you need to know.

He has messed with them all and he knows. Lycoming changed the grind on the camshaft, (maybe somebody in the know will tell us when) has the same part # as the old. If you have the old cam reground they will grind it to the new grind unless you specify the old grind. The new grind will make your 160hp run like a tired 150hp.

The boys at Lycon are a valuable resource.



http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewt...=135832#135832

[Scooter7779h]

I vote Superior Millennium Investment Cast Nichol. With the extra fin area and surface texture I think they dissipate heat the best of any. You will see lower CHT and oil temps. Also they have great design of extra beefing around the exhaust ports and other areas where standard cylinders crack. I ran a set of ECI Classic Casts Nichol and they were good too, but I do like the Millenniums better. Both are good cylinders.

[Crash]

ECI nickle if you don't fly often or ECI steel bores if you do. Sometimes nickle bores will seat properly, and sometimes they don't.

Crash

[cubscout]

Who's gonna build the engine, and who's gonna warranty?

Go with THEIR reccomendation.

My engine guy likes ECI better than the others, because he has to do less rework, like ring gaps, and valve-seat angles. Choke bore seems OK, too.

In my limited experience, the current ECI Cerminil/ring combo seems to seat consistently well and quickly if factory reccomendations are done, but I'm running two sets of ECI steels to good effect, ~650 on the hard worker, and ~300 on the other. Ran ~2000 on another set of Cerminils, and they still met spec at teardown. I'm happy with all. I think the cerminils will run less oil, though.

And others with whom I network have had sterling results with Lycoming Nitrided, built by reputable shops.

Millenium recently changed hands to a very reputable German company, so maybe their QC is improved now.

Isn't it wonderful to have options?

Now who all offers cylinders for narrow deck 0-320's, 0-360's and 0-540's?

Thanks. cubscout

[Crash]

The best place I've found to buy new cylinders is Aero in Stock.

http://www.aeroinstock.com/products/...cat/index.html


Crash

[Steve Pierce]

J&J Airparts has given me good prices and service on new cylinders in the past. Talk to Pat, she knows parts, used to work for Superior.

http://jjairparts.com/

I know Superior has an investment cast cylinder head on their narrow deck O-320 cylinders. Not sure about the ECIs.

[Lance]

I appreciate all of the input. Just as I thought though it is not a cut and dry decision, seems ECI has the edge though.

My first objective is to box up the lower end parts and send them out to be checked then I will know what options I have.

What's the deal with what Benflyn said about the cam? Mine is not pitted, actually looks good, but I do plan on having it ground or replaced.

As far as who is doing the rebuild....well my first choice would be to send it to Lycon and be done with it. I have not talked with them yet so?? My second choice is to go over to Steve P's and do an owner assisted build. Third choice is to have my local mechanic assist me. I have to get some more ducks in a row before I know which way the reassembly will go.

I am all ears for more opinions.

Thanks, Lance

[Longwinglover]

Isn't there a requirement to run the engine on a "certified" test stand to be able to qualify for "overhaul"? If so this may factor into the decision on where to do it.

John Scott

[jr.hammack]

lance,
another option,get steve to help you rebuild the case up to cylinders,let lycon build the cylinder,complete with their flow,port,and other updates.last time i talked with them they were using lyc. as their base to start with.
s.j. thought my 0320 was a 0360 when he flew it at willow,ak.,has done well IMHO.
cams have made a big differance in some of the hot rod engines,if your not worried with being legal.

happy holidays

jr.

[cubscout]

Lance, re: Cams and lifters, I've had TWO (count 'em 2!!) lifter body seperations, both thankfully on takeoff roll, so I shut 'er down, and safe rollout. Neither was a huge blowup, just RPM off a little, and a little rough.Yeah, guess that makes me a GENIUS pilot.... And heck, I don't have all that many hours, just lots of takeoffs and landings. (And don't get me started on Slick Magneto impulse coupling seperations, and Slick's "helpful" warranty response....)

Both required teardown, at huge expense and downtime to a working aeroplane. One was <300 SMOH by reputable shop, with yellow-tagged lifters by reputable shop. Both shops "helped" some, but didn't help the downtime. Shrapnel through the case REQUIRES a total teardown.

Cams and lifters don't have any way of tracking through the U.S.A. parts system. One has NO! idea how many overhaul cycles they've been through. The surface faces can be a good match, look good, but the lifter body can still seperate. And oh, by the way, camshafts are ground DOWN, therefore lift isn't what it originally had, even if cam profile is similar.

I feel WAY better about reworked cylinders than I do about reworked cam and lifters. Sacramento Skyranch Engineering Manual has some discussion about this. An excellent resource. Also Light Plane Maintenance has had some articles in this regard. New cam and lifters= money well spent, and not that much more in the context of a first class MOH. These days, parts are relatively cheap, but labour is relatively expensive.

Cranks and cases are a whole 'nother story, and these can be NDT inspected and reworked by reputable shops (NOT that many though....), and run nearly forever. Money well spent.

And in my "little shop of horrors" show and tell box, I've got one of the worst cases of cam and lifter spalling that any of the high volume overhaul shops has ever seen. On a powerplant which "passed" several annual inspections, by alleged I.A.'s

I DON'T make this stuff up.

Cam and Lifters is NOT the place to economise on your overhaul.

Best wishes on your overhaul project, there are lots of good folks out there and some charletains. I think you're on the right track.

Thanks. cubscout

[behindpropellers]

I appreciate all of the input. Just as I thought though it is not a cut and dry decision, seems ECI has the edge though.

My first objective is to box up the lower end parts and send them out to be checked then I will know what options I have.

What's the deal with what Benflyn said about the cam? Mine is not pitted, actually looks good, but I do plan on having it ground or replaced.

As far as who is doing the rebuild....well my first choice would be to send it to Lycon and be done with it. I have not talked with them yet so?? My second choice is to go over to Steve P's and do an owner assisted build. Third choice is to have my local mechanic assist me. I have to get some more ducks in a row before I know which way the reassembly will go.

I am all ears for more opinions.

Thanks, Lance

Rebuild it with Steve. The knowledge you learn by doing it that way is priceless.

[Steve Pierce]

Lance, Maybe we can recover Ron's fuselage, assemble Laura's wings and assemble your engine for a 3rd Annual Graham Super Cub Seminar. I'm game, just need a little help.

As far as cams go it is a crap shoot. ECI sells a cam and lifter set that is reasonable in my opinion. As far as IAs being able to tell if a cam/lifter is spalded that is a tough one. I had a customer with a Cessna 180 that was running great, no metal in the screen, low time but a lot of calender time on the engine. I sent an oil analysis off. Came back with a lot of ferrous metal. Recommendation was to fly a few hours and send in another sample. Did, still nothing in the screen. First time the analysis folks ever called me on the phone telling me not to fly the airplane. Pulled a jug and the cam and lifters were shot. I have also had to split a Lycoming case on a mid-time engine because of a broken lifter body.

[Steve Pierce]

John, The airplane can be used to test the engine.

[Longwinglover]

Steve,

Don't the instruments have to be certified correct? (Not that they couldn't in the plane, but I've seen tachs, oil temps and pressures reading significantly off...)

John Scott

[Steve Pierce]

If you are a repair station I believe they do. I don't remember the regs off the top of my head and don't have access to the books at the moment but did research it several years ago.

[cubscout]

Steve P, hope you understand that I didn't intend to diss honest, hardworking IA's like you.

The powerplant to which I referred had all the cylinders off (and back on for ECI cerminils I/C/W a service bulletin or something), but the genius IA didn't really look at the bottom end. Yeah, I know, kinda hard on any Lycoming, but.... And was SERIOUSLY misrepresented by the seller, but that's another story.

So I offer up my GREAT respect for the hardworking IA's out there: Heck I work with several. Wish't my guys had looked at the aeroplane I mention here.....

Thanks for all you do.

Thanks, cubscout

[Alaska_Rallyer]

The best place I've found to buy new cylinders is Aero in Stock.

http://www.aeroinstock.com/products/...cat/index.html

I will second that one. Great place!!! I just ordered a couple cylinders with them. The prices were 100 less then anyone in town even after UPS 3 day air mail! Their customer service people were very nice on the phone and eager to answer any questions.

Hey is anyone running roller rockers yet?

[Josh]

between Chrome, Nickel, and steel, what typically lasts longer if run every day such as in ride business as i.e compressions, and oil consumption being some factors?

[CptKelly]

Ok, same question: What are the best cylinders for a C-85/0-200? I should be flown fairly often, but our environment here is rather damp. Our planes are always hangared.

Mike

[Steve Pierce]

Cubscout, I see what you mean. With the cylinders off you can see the cam and lifter condition very well. Two years ago when I was doing the pre-buy on my Pacer I was concerned about the engine. It was overhauled in 1965 and sat most of the time since. I was able to bring it to my shop for the pre-buy and I removed a cylinder and was able to see the pitted cam, lifters and cylinders. Glad you got a good IA now.