Hi,
I'm looking at a 1974 SC with original fabric and 2005 paint. The aircraft was annualed last April. How much life should be expected from that fabric? My plan is to fly the aircraft for the next few years and then sell. Probably sell it within 5 years. The Vref value is about $70-80k but doesn't take into consideration age of the fabric. Does fabric age matter?
Thanks,
Peter
Its worth about 25-35K depending on how it was maintained. No doubt some idiot will pay 2X that for because it was painted.
You can pay 70K for it now, and then put 50K in it next year when an IA will not sign it off.
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
Others will probably chime in here. It has been my experience that the seller is usually "punished" for old cover. I would call original from 1974 pretty old. I don't really know (someone here will) what process Piper used in '74, but often times repaints on fabric only hold up long enough to sell the airplane...again dependent upon the process, I am sure.
Don't know much about the rest of the airplane, but $70 - $80K should buy a pretty nice flyer SC with a fairly recent cover.
Good luck, hope it works out for you.
gb
That fabric is over thirty years old. Even if it punches well and the paint looks good, it has been a looong time since the underlying structure has been seen. Chances are it is hiding $ecrets.
The above posts answers your question...
I know of a Cub for sale w/ a fresh 160hp, rebuilt or new; wings, gear, tail, and firewall foreword within the past 12 months w/ less than 130 hours. Fusleage is dated from 1986 and looks "ok", the rest of the plane is excellent, price $70-80k. Fly it now and for the next 10 years and STILL get you money from it.
Yup, time to take it apart and recover. Make a nice project. Just not at the current price...
The rest of the plane: 2300 TTAF, 660 SMOH, 160 HP, 82-43 Borer, folding rear seat, map pocket windshield defroster, light weight alternator & battery (under front seat), engine heater, hd gear, vortex generators, removable xbar, extended baggage, Atlee Dodge safety cables & wing tie downs, weld on float fittings, belly tank & storage. VFR no gyros/ vacuum system. One comm, xponder and Garmin 296.Originally Posted by gbflyer
Unless those options really boost the value of the plane, I agree that $70-80k is too high with that old of fabric. Thanks for the opinions, they confirm my instincts.
Peter
Peter, Sounds like a nicely equipped SC. I think the price is too high. Fresh paint on a fabric airplane is always a turn off to me. It never seems to last long and normally when it is done it is a band-aid in place of what is needed, recover.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
Well I have to respectfully disagree as I'm flying an exception.
Last winter I purchased a 77 PA18-150 with virtually no mods with a bit over 1500 hours TT and 200 SMOH including prop on a very light, and straight aircraft that is still on the original fabric and paint. Now initially, the fabric age spooked me too but I am sure glad I looked further into it and educated myself on the subject.
Presently, I'm the 4th owner and have turned down a good bit more than the low 70's I paid for her.
Historically, all of the the previous owners were meticulous about maintenance, always hanger kept, and the aircraft was never in humid climates which was a big thing to me. On top of this the individual whom I purchased it from is (according to his mechanic who I spend considerable time with) fanatical about maintenance and aircraft weight.
So to date, in 10 months I have learned to fly, mostly in it, and have put over 160 hours on it with only two long trips and I have done a few mods; seats, safety cables, tires (went from 8's to 8.5's (used) now on 26's (loaners) while I'm saving up for 31's), VG's and yesterday I ordered the small dry battery and I plan on removing a second oil cooler mounted in the front baffle (for both weight and more temp.) and will change to the light weight starter when the big one finally goes (likely over the winter) so I should get back down close to fighting weight (1053# at purchase) even with some very valuable mods. The one mod I really wish I could do now is the x-brace and if the tanks ever have to come out before a full rebuild which I don't anticipate for another 5-8 years we are going to do that one early.
Yes, she has had a few fabric repairs; one gear leg and the elevator were done before my purchase and I had the other gear leg done just before New Holstein (I equate these to varicose veins and a butt lift) plus we fixed a few paint cracks (laugh lines) around some inspection ports that I wish the paint had matched better on but other than that it tests strong, still looks good on a Saturday night and out performs others who are guided by much hands than those of this idiot.
The only hassle I'm presently facing is replacing the torn headliner that a hunting buddy pushed a little too hard on when had to pack hisbox of Cheezits on top of the baggage for the trip back from South Dakota a couple of weeks ago.
My point is don't discount old fabric as everything out there has not been rode hard and put away wet. I know I'm very new at this and my experience may well be the exception but from my observation and experience I'll keep my no damage history light weight non-screwed-with well maintained original.
"Illegitimis non carborundum"
Peter
In your original post you stated that your intention was to keep the plane about 5 years and then sell it. The fabric age is a concern now. In 5 years it will be a HUGE concern and every buyer with any knowledge will see it as a big, price reducing, liability. The plane is on the edge now, I think in 5 more years it will turn into a flying project and you might loose money on it. I may be wrong but that is how I see it.
Best of luck and I hope you find a good Cub. They are great airplanes.
Bill
Oldcrowe,
Congratulations on having the luck to make this exceptional purchase!
One of the biggest problems with answering questions on the internet is that it is REALLY hard to have ALL the necessary information to answer questions. A lot of the time people have to use their experience to make their best guess.
Your '77 PA-18, obviously, was exceptionally well cared for. What would it be like if the previous owners hadn't been so meticulous? Peter hasn't given information on some things that would make a big difference in the condition of the fabric on the PA-18 he is looking at. He doesn't say where the Cub has lived and whether it has been hangered any, all or part of its life.
After 30 years it is almost equally important to remove the fabric (even if it is technically good) so that you can inspect the structure underneath.
People have given their best guesses based on their experience and the little information provided.
Your PA-18 is the exception to the general rules. I'm envious of your luck in finding such a deal!
John Scott
P.S. If a box of Cheez-its will tear your headliner (inside the plane inside the hanger)...
While I respect the folks that use Cubs to make a living, my uses are for recreation and leisure - AND I'M NOT ASHAMED!!!
JohnOldcrowe,
Congratulations on having the luck to make this exceptional purchase!
One of the biggest problems with answering questions on the internet is that it is REALLY hard to have ALL the necessary information to answer questions. A lot of the time people have to use their experience to make their best guess.
Your '77 PA-18, obviously, was exceptionally well cared for. What would it be like if the previous owners hadn't been so meticulous? Peter hasn't given information on some things that would make a big difference in the condition of the fabric on the PA-18 he is looking at. He doesn't say where the Cub has lived and whether it has been hangered any, all or part of its life.
After 30 years it is almost equally important to remove the fabric (even if it is technically good) so that you can inspect the structure underneath.
People have given their best guesses based on their experience and the little information provided.
Your PA-18 is the exception to the general rules. I'm envious of your luck in finding such a deal!
John Scott
P.S. If a box of Cheez-its will tear your headliner (inside the plane inside the hanger)...
I simply took respectful objection and identified my experience because it differed.
Oh well, it is a beautiful fall day here in Oklahoma so I'm going flying.
Kirby
Ps Now I know why metal headliners are so popular, my buddy could pass as the human trash compactor.
"Illegitimis non carborundum"
My fuselage fabric is original 1974. The wings and other structures have been recovered. My plane has 1000 TTSN. Lived it's life hangered in OR and was a 1 owner until I purchased in 1999 at 686 hours. I plan on going 3 more years before recover. That will make it 36 years old.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison
I'm with mostly everybody else. Thirty plus year old fabric isn't normally worth paying much for. Although my 1939 J-3 was recovered in 1974 with Ceconite and still testing fine with multiple patches in March of 2006 when it was blown into a couple of trees, it was definitely time to have it come off, because when it did mice pee induced corrosion was found in the false spars. It had always been hangared. I wound up selling that airplane and buying a 1946 J-3 w/ C-90 that had Irish Linen still on it from 1955 and was signed off as recently as 2005. When I tore it apart, although extremely dirty and oily underneath the fabric no corrosion was found anywhere. Spending it's entire life on the South/North Dakota border probably had something to do with that.
Pat
I think there are individual factors which can cause a great deal of variation in fabric/aircraft life.
I recovered my PA-12 in 1979 with Stits. I sandblasted the fuselage and primed it with a metal etching zinc chromate primer that at the time was suppose to be great, but is no longer used (perhaps because of health concerns, but I also think there are better products today). Though a novice, I thought at the time that I was doing a great and meticulous job. In retrospect I probably didn't get the fuselage primer on heavily enough and also think I didn't get a thick enough coat of silver on to adequately protect the fabric from UV. The plane spent all its life since the recover outside in Fairbanks, AK which is nearly a desert with annual precip around 15 inches; summers are warm and fairly dry, winters are cold and dry, but there is a lot of UV here with sun up about 21 hours/day in summer. The plane made only occasional forays into wetter territory, the coastal regions of Alaska. I had one battery leakage incidence into the tail of the aircraft which I let some of the best professionals in the area clean up, though they warned me that there was only so much they could do with the fabric in place. In 2000, the fabric started to fail and need repairs to pass annuals. In 2004, I finally started a recover, 25 years after the previous recover. I thought it would be just a recover. I've ended up replacing the lower longerons in the fuselage from about the baggage compartment aft and much of the tail because of corrosion, despite the relatively dry climate here. It was a real eye opener for me. I suspect that the battery leakage incidence had a significant contribution to long-term corrosion, but I'm not positive. I was also surprised to discover damage to structural parts from general long-term wear and tear. There's a threaded aluminum block in the end of the drag struts in the wings that is a design weakness and I found several of these structural items with stripped threads. Of course in my 12, these parts were probably 55 years old, not 25. But still, there are parts that don't last forever and are probably only examined in a full and careful disassembly.
I don't mean to be discouraging. I think each plane's history needs to be carefully considered in evaluating its worth. I hope sharing my experience will be educational for some of you.
I have a welder friend that has worked on a number of planes here.
Yes we are coastal
yes we abuse cubs (fly them the way they are supposed to be flown-rifles and fly rods).
Every one he has worked on has needed lower longeron sections, or the entire longerons replaced.
getting on to 30 years old it is just a matter of time. Maybe you get 35 years, maybe only 25.
if you do the work yourself and rebuild it, think about a 25,000 bill. If you expect you are only going to get 5 years out of it, that is 5k/year. If you think you are going to get one of limited age, fly five of the maybe eight years off of it, then sell it to another...
If it costs me $25,000 to rebuild, (I am planning mine next year and am budgeting $30,000), and I can buy a good flying one for $80,000, that only leaves $55,000 on the table for one set up the way I want it.
But is is your money, if you like it, go for it.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
OLDCROWE,
How is your fabric holding up?
Peter,
Did you buy the SC and how is the fabric 3+ years later?
a sc.org member's got a 1966 supercub in the hangar next to mine. It has the original grade-A cotton on the wings that doesn't pass the punch test, but he's convinced the fabric's just fine.... every few years, he tests a strip from the underside of the wing with the fish-scale pull test and calls it good. 45-yr old fabric and he flies it like that. I keep telling him that the fabric's going to peel off the wings like the perforations on a potato chip bag........ I want first dibs on buying the empty hangar!
windy
Don't know about Kirby's fabric but my 74 has original ceconite on the wings that is good as new still. Been here in Mt its whole life I'm the second owner and other than the inspection cover rings coming loose that I solved by gluing a coffee can size patch over all of them it even looks pretty good. I wouldn't even consider recovering it at this point.
A hangared aircraft is an entirely different situation. The only circumstances I would buy an aircraft with fabric exposed to 36 years of the elements is for a rebuild and half of 70-75k, no dickering.
1971 original fabric and this is what the top longeron looked like.
100_7857.JPG
Inspect carefully.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
usually the rib stitching long since rotted away.....
i keep hearing of one that was done in 68 that still passes..... hard to imagine.....
and like steves picture shows, whats under there....
Steve,
That picture just gave me a sick feeling...
Has there ever been an in-flight failure of tubes due to corrosion?
We still have a 1951 Pacer around here in the original cotton that piper sent it out of the factory in, was still in annual last winter. Same owner since 1951
Glenn
I'd like to see that Pacer. I bet there are some neat things that have long been lost after multiple rebuilds on other Pacers.
There was a Pacer or Tri-Pacer with a structural failure, i think strut, that was fatal and a Taylorcraft. That is about all I know about. Some damage caused by corrosion induced failures like landing gear and tailposts.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
Steve the airplane looks very good, it looks like it was restored 20 years ago or so, the gentleman that owned it Died last winter at 93 and owned it since new, he also owned over 40 Vagabonds in his lifetime, I got to fly with him in the Pacer 10 or 12 years ago and was in awe of the skill that he had at 80 some odd years old. He told me that the Pacer had only sat outside one night in it's whole life. His name was Roger Bates and he was a local legend around here, at 90+ he was still walked on the balls of his feet when he wasn't running and flew one of his 5 airplanes a couple times a week and rode his motorcycle to run errands. I miss him he was FULL of life.
Glenn
Pretty well, only real problem is with some touch up paint coming off an old cosmetic job at the base of the vertical (actually the orig. under the touch up looks better than the touch) and a small dope/paint issue where the fuel tank cap gaskets let some fuel by which I had it touched up. Others of significantly more knowledge than I have looked it over recently and recommended I keep her in the air... not ready for a refit just yet. I'm planning on a recover/redo in a couple of years likely a big one power plant and all.
OC
"Illegitimis non carborundum"
Thanks for the heads up.
I'm looking at a '79 ceconite and just wondering if fabric failure is imminent or not.
In my experience Ceconite or any other modern fabric will last a lifetime if the silver is not come off. UV will rot it. The older cover jobs are usually shave cracks and other problems in the finish from the plasticizers etc. evaporating out and they loose the elasticity and start to crack etc. Cathy's Tri-Pacer was covered in Ceconite and dope in 1968 and lived all of it's life in New Mexico in a very dry climate. Looks pretty good and have found no corrosion issues. Eventually it will need recover/restoration.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
If I were flying a plane with old fabric I would strongly consider recovering it over several years....one piece at a time.
Tim
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
When was that rattle trap you fly recovered? I was thinking almost 20 years ago according to the 337s but I forgot there was a log book entry to the contrary.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
Steve, rejuvenating the fabric will put the platicizers and elasticity back into the fabric, won't it?
Yes but with mixed results. I have had good luck on a few and only gotten a year or two out of others. It is a lot of work to do correctly. Lots of sanding and prep.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
Totally depends on what finish it has on it. Alot of the older stuff was topcoated with enamel or urethane...if that's what you have, it wont rejuvinate. If it's dope, you're in luck, as it will rejuvinate.
and dope MIGHT stick again(and usually brushes/comes off with scraping the snow and frost off), the cracks will come back through unless totally removed to fabric and built back up..... not worth your time and $$.... I refuse to bother with this since the results are so likely failure at a high labor & materials investment....
if you need to freshen it up, scrub plane with scotch bright/sand paper & water, put a tape over every crack(those 1" tapes work nice) and build up with silver there, then shoot with a good polyurethane... you will get an easy decade or more out of it....
When I posted, I was implying that the finish was not a polyeurethane. I know that rejuvenating might cover a hairline crack but not more than that.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks