Ground Loop Survey

[Dennis Blankenbaker]

I was doing some test flying in a S/C and landed on a frozen lake with just a little loose snow on it. I intentionally put into a sliding turn (you know, like when you were a kid with the pickup truck and a slick road).
After playing like this for a while I learned that with no friction on the tires after about 100 degrees of turn I could not stop the left turn with full right rudder and full power. It would just go around and around and increase the speed of rotation. So if you are going to ground loop try to make sure that you have some traction for braking and don't rely on just power to stop the turn. And lots of open space is good.
P.S. it was kind of fun, I'm still just a kid.

[moneyburner]

I didn't ground loop - I had everything lined up perfect. The world spun out!

[fabricfan]

This poll is scary to me. It has way more people having a GL than I imagined.

[Jr.CubBuilder]

This poll is scary to me. It has way more people having a GL than I imagined.

I think there are a lot more slow speed ground loops that don't cause any more damage save some wounded pride. The ones that happen at a higher speed differential between the plane and ground tear stuff up. The best instructor I had pointed something out to me, don't ever land a taildragger with a tail wind your airspeed slows down and your rudder gets ineffective while your groundspeed stays high, there's a lot more energy in that situation to rip gear legs off and smash up planes.

[JimC]

>The best instructor I had pointed something out to me, don't ever land a taildragger with a tail wind<

How then do you land on one-way strips? Or on riverine sandbars and islands where the dunes and ripples are saw-toothed, requiring that you land downriver no matter the direction of the wind?
JimC

[JimC]

>This poll is scary to me. It has way more people having a GL than I imagined.<

The count is biased. The question is less likely to elicit a response from people who've never groundlooped, so they are undercounted.
JimC

[oldbaldguy]

After all is said and done, it's like the man said: There are those who have and those who will. No matter how experienced we are, every time we turn final there is a 50/50 chance we're gonna swap ends before we make it to the tie downs. That's part of the charm of flying our airplanes.

[Lowflybye]

Anybody have any insight on how one gets the nose on the ground at taxi speed? Is there some combination of heavy braking and turning to get that last taxiway that gives students a problem?

While taxiing at idle there is very little propwash / wind over the tail surface. With a light tail and aggressive braking she will tend to nose dive every time...especially if the stick is not in your crotch and you are aggressive on the brakes. A quick burst of power with the stick back and/or releasing some of the brake pressure should put her ass back on the ground though.

[Jr.CubBuilder]

>The best instructor I had pointed something out to me, don't ever land a taildragger with a tail wind<

How then do you land on one-way strips? Or on riverine sandbars and islands where the dunes and ripples are saw-toothed, requiring that you land downriver no matter the direction of the wind?
JimC

Very carefully.

The potential for things getting out of hand goes up exponentially with a tail wind. Try it, you'll see. I've tried it a couple of times and now I avoid it like the plague. If you want to fly into a one way strip with a nice stiff breeze behind you that's your business, I'll wait till the wind favors me.

[Clyde and Susan]

While taxiing at idle there is very little propwash / wind over the tail surface. With a light tail and aggressive braking she will tend to nose dive every time...especially if the stick is not in your crotch and you are aggressive on the brakes. A quick burst of power with the stick back and/or releasing some of the brake pressure should put her ass back on the ground though.

When taxing downwind keep the stick forward anytime the wind is faster than you are. ...Clyde Davis

[Lowflybye]

While taxiing at idle there is very little propwash / wind over the tail surface. With a light tail and aggressive braking she will tend to nose dive every time...especially if the stick is not in your crotch and you are aggressive on the brakes. A quick burst of power with the stick back and/or releasing some of the brake pressure should put her ass back on the ground though.

When taxing downwind keep the stick forward anytime the wind is faster than you are. ...Clyde Davis

Good point...I should have mentioned it.

[JimC]

>Try it, you'll see<

I've tried it. For about 17 years I used a J3 and a PA11 for search and rescue flying, mostly off sandbars with substantial dunes and ripples. Their sawtooth shape required landing and taking off downriver no matter the direction of the wind. I haven't done it in many years, but to this day I still have more landings and takeoffs in those conditions than I do on paved strips, and more landings and takeoffs offstrip than on. It's nothing to worry about, so long as you're careful and stay within the limitations of the aircraft.

Re taxiing downwind, tape a 4" piece of yarn on the lift strut about two and a half feet outboard of the fuselage. Any time the yarn is blowing aftward, use up elevator when taxiing. Anytime the yarn is blowing forward, use down elevator. You'll find that the wind almost never overwhelms the prop blast even in fairly substantial tailwinds. If the yarn is shifting fore and aft, be very cautious and very quick with elevator corrections.
JimC

[Lowflybye]

In the Maule (my primary wings) the tail is so heavy compared to the SC that Most all the time I have the Yoke in my lap no matter what the wind. There have been times in higher winds (15 kts or greater off the tail) where I will dive away, but it has to be pretty strong to lighten the tail to any noticeable degree...add a back passenger or cargo and it becomes even heavier on the tail.

One thing that you MUST pay attention to in the Maule is the aileron correction while taxiing...the narrow gear will allow the wing to pick up in a hurry if you don't pay attention.

[oldbaldguy]

Maule? Isn't that one of those Pacer clones?

[Torch]

I have done it twice with no damage. LUCKY. Both times I was practicing shortfield landings in strong crosswinds. I learned to never do short/off field landings with a brisk crosswind. You will eventually bust your ass.

[JimC]

I agree with Torch about not doing shortfield landings in a strong crosswind, but I don't see any particular reason to avoid off field landings in strong crosswinds.

Does the following qualify as a groundloop? Some years ago my brother and I were landing the -3 on top of the White River levee in eastern Arkansas to refuel during a search operation. He was flying, I was riding front seat. He had to get on the brakes pretty hard to stop short because of a vehicle parked on the levee. At about 20 mph, a brass elbow on the right brake blew out and we did a hard left turn off the left side of the levee and down the 4 to 1 sideslope toward the trees at the bottom. It was about an 80 degree left turn, with the tailwheel on the ground. I remember thinking, "We're gonna to take this sucker home in a basket." Or other shorter, more succinct words to that effect..... But, he went to full throttle and down elevator to blow the tail off the ground, with full right rudder to stop the turn, then turned the plane 170 degrees back to the right with the tail up, and used the prop blast to stop the plane as it went backwards down the slope, setting the tail back down as he did so. We then taxiied back up to the top of the levee. Does this constitute a groundloop? The unintentional left turn was slightly less than 90 degrees, initiated by one wheel being locked up while the other was free, and the 170 degree reversal to the right was intentional and under full control, so my impression is that it wasn't a groundloop. Any thoughts?
JimC

[oldbaldguy]

JimC

The events in your tale took no more than a handful of seconds, start to finish. The bigger question for guys like me is not whether this was a bona fide ground loop, but at what point and after how many hours does a Cub driver of any stripe know his airplane well enough to be able to recognize a situation like this then apply the necessary but counterintuitive inputs to save the airplane? Wow.

OBG

[JimC]

My brother was as good at ground-handling of a J3 as anyone I've ever flown with. Unfortunately, he has a degenerative joint disease and can no longer climb into a -3. Wish he could -- I truly miss flying with him.
JimC

[sadams]

As a 19 y.o. I bought a J-3 and quickly checked out in 3 landings. I thought I was H.. S... . Now, almost 40 years later I fly a Pacer and each landing is a new experience (I love it!). Even my wife, continues to congradulate me on each and every landing.

Just to cause problems; (I do take a lot of ribbing from my local SC friends about my so called "wing deprived SC") but, how does one really ground-loop a long wing, long coupled plane?

[Chuck E.]

Not yet, and don't plan on starting now after 55 years of flying tail wheel airplanes.

[JimC]

I notice in the poll responses that 69% have not groundlooped and 29% have. What happened to the other 2% ?
JimC

[Snert]

The other 2% are in recovery from a ground loop. They still don't know what just happened.

[oldbaldguy]

Also possible that the other 2% are helicopter pilots.

[willyb]

I'm still in the Never category but my tailwheel career is still in it's infancy.Maybe there should be a Not Yet category.Reading all these posts I may learn enough to delay my first for a while.I was with a friend in his 170 and got to experience a ground loop on landing.No damage but pretty exciting. Bill

[mac335]

ONCE. NOT MUCH CROSS WIND, SLOW LANDING SPEED AND BRAIN DEAD.

[Jerry Gaston]

I wish you didn't ask but now that you did ... Yes with damage. Setting down on a county road I ran smack into a dust devil. Put me into a ditch broke the left wing collapsed the gear etc. Now that I talk about it i get heart burn.

[Fido]

...once in the early beginning of taidragger flying, later on in the backseat while a friend learned landing (PA-1, 1 forced landing, J3C, carb.problems. With my Champ 7-EC never,.....up to now !

[Laz]

Once, in a Luscombe 8E on skis. I was running out of room on a icy, downhill strip with a tremendous (!) berm (and tall trees) at the end. (What do you mean there's no brakes!). Did an intentional ground loop (at about 20 MPH) and ended up with the tail at the base of the berm! I must have done the right thing with the ailerons as it didn't lift a wing or tuck the gear under. I cleaned my shorts and promised to heaven on high, I would never do that again. I think I used up all my 9 lives with that one!
Laz

[NZ Cub Driver]

Hey Guys,

Well as they say there are those that have, and those that will. I have just been added to the those that have.

I was doing a bit of glider towing. I had completed 2 tows that morning, not a problem at all. On the 3rd landing the Cub suddenly veered right and started making a screeching sound. I put in full left rudder and some brake which seemed to control it. I had wheeled it on so I now had to bring the tail down, as I was slowing down I finally worked out that my right brake was stuck on. The left brake was not as effective as the right brake due to a lack of brake fluid, plus the wind was coming from the right. Therefore as I slowed down, you guessed it! The Cub slowly started to veer right. I pulled the mixture (the engine and prop had just been inspected so I didn't want to risk damaging them) and let the aircraft slowly complete a ground loop. It ended up 200 degrees from original heading, with no damage. Luckily full rudder and left brake meant that I could hold it straight until I slowed down to around 10mph. Engineers found a sticky piston to be the fault.

So there you go, a ground loop that actually wasn't my fault, not often you can say that.

[fadec]

A Cub owner for about 2 weeks now, about 75 landings 12.5 hours(450 in training wheeled airplanes) and I know its coming !. When, who knows, but I hope its painless and uneventful.

[SuperClub]

I was an A&P before I flew a tailwheel, so I had seen a number of damaged planes from groundloops. When I bought my first tailwheel plane (a C-170), I told myself it was not going to happen to me. I've made some pretty ugly landings, but I will not ever let that tail come around!

When I teach in a taildragger, there's lots of (full runway length) high and low speed taxiing, lots of distractions presented, lots of crosswinds, and you need to do real nice wheel landings before I cut you loose.

Also, many people assume it only happens on landing. Well, that's not the case, and when it happens on takeoff, you've just added full power, and all that energy makes the whole thing occur more quickly and often with more damage.

[JimC]

SuperCub, do you prefer wheel landings to 3-point, or do you teach both?
JimC

[SuperClub]

I teach both 3-point and wheel landings, but in my opinion, a wheel landing requires more skill and feel for the plane.

The majority of my students have felt that the wheel landing gives them more positive control of the aircraft in crosswinds or gusty conditions. (I also believe this, but I try not to force my opinion on people...)

[flyboyjoe]

Hi Folks,

I've been recently flying a Super Cub (180 HP) at work performing engine break-ins. I'm still a relatively low time tail dragger pilot but I've been landing mainly with 3 pointers; if there are any winds I've been keeping the tail up just a little to ensure I had directional control, then I would let the tail gently settle. I do have the luxury of a nice long and wide runway so if I got into any trouble I have "room." So far so good.

On landings, I have always found that if you're stable in your approach, decent rate and airspeed, the touch down should all work out providing a wind gust don't appear. If I had any concerns I've also extended my downwind a bit so it gives me a longer final and time to get "stabilized."

My 2 cents....

[Jerry Gaston]

flyboyjoe forget the three point landings they don't do a thing for ya. Do a tail low wheel landing and you'll be just fine.

[ROOTER]

FBJ,

As long as you keep a few butterflies in you belly you will be fine.

When over confidence sets in is when you are in danger of G.L.

Good Luck!

[Lippy]

I’ve never gone all the way around but came REAL close to disaster when I was teaching a 172 driver to fly my cub. The plane had 29 inch tires, and nearly put the wing in the dirt with full power applied. That was much more terrifying then the other times I’ve **allegedly** crashed.

Wouldn’t it be an interesting thread taking a poll on how many people have got their license pulled? I’m sure some fun stories could come from that!

For the FAA reading this: I still know nothing…

Lippy

[JimC]

Joe, for me, keeping the tailwheel on the ground gives better control, especially in gusty crosswinds.
JimC

[meat n the seat]

Hey Joe, Glad you haven't done the deed yet. I have come close but not quite in my bellaca triple tail. Saving for a SC. Where in CO do you get to fly your SC? I'm in New Mexico just south of Durango, CO. Anyway have fun!...Pete

[Brian T]

Yes it does happen. Had been out just having fun. Landed on a few gravel bars then half a dozen on a grass strip, back to the home field,landed on some lumpy grass, little bounce and things went sideways. No damage but did have a few witnesses.