Paperwork issues...

[dhc2boy]

Hi there,
I'm looking at buying a new cub. I found lots of ratty cubs, but i'm thinking about buying some paperwork from a pa-18-95 and buying a new airframes inc airframe and some dakota wings and building my own. Is this doable? I'm a young A&P, worked around lots of bigger bush planes, but not much with cubs and didnt know if you could just buy paperwork, then buy an STCd airframe and STCd wings and start from there. I've heard this can be kinda of tricky, and was wondering if you guys might be able to help me out if I can even be helped! Thanks a bunch in advance!

Bill

[RedEye]

Don't see where there would be any problem. When I lost my bird in a hanger fire all I had was the paper work. We rebuilt as you are thinking of doing and got it all signed off and approved, no problems at all !! Lots of paperwork. If I were to do it again I would go experimental and sell the certified paperwork.

[S2D]

Make sure you have the original data plate (and know how to tell the difference), good airworthiness certificate and a current registration and you shouldn't have many problems.Although I'd question doing it with a set of original 95 hp paperwork if you are going to 160 hp and all the mods.
Actually might be worth more if you built up a NEW aircraft from parts like Cubcrafters used to do. Nothing like a good 2008 Piper-Smith Super Cub.

[djfraudman]

You may want to look at this thread http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=12563 and then do a little reasearch starting with this superceded FAA Order http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/abfc79ba498a799e86256e47005ae2c1/$FILE/8050.4.pdf

The follow on guidance is as clear as mud, but if you are concerned rather than operating under don't ask don't tell principle it could be interesting to run the idea past your PMI.

[dhc2boy]

Thanks guys!
This aircraft has no airworthyness certificate due to being destroyed. It has everything else though, data plate, registration, etc. It sounds like that might be the hardest part of the conversion. I know its a 18-95, but in past threads I've read you can convert them. Not quite sure what is entailed, but willing to give it a shot. Anyone that knows anything, that would be greatly appriciated. I thought about going experimental, but I'm young and looking to sell it in a few years and upgrade and want a certified plane. It cheaper for insurance, and better for resale. Even though some of those kit cubs are selling for the same as a certified. I'm going to have to join, I cant read the thread without a full membership. Thanks for the help understanding this. I was under the idea that you could replace the aircraft if it had some original parts, ie rudder, elevators, ailerons, etc. But it looks like if the aircraft were a total loss, you could just build around the data plate. Thanks!

Bill

[behindpropellers]

I have some paperwork similar to what you are talking about.

Before I spend any major money I will be sending a letter to my FSDO to make sure that I can rebuild this one and get an airworthyness cert. Once you have the blessing from the FAA you should be free to go.

Tim

[pak]

Before I would go to all of the hassle I would look into building in a different catagory. If I were young and had the skill I'd build in experimental or homebuilt catagory.
Pete

[T.J.]

delete

[Longwinglover]

Thanks guys!
This aircraft has no airworthyness certificate due to being destroyed. It has everything else though, data plate, registration, etc.
Bill

Bill,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if the AW cert is missing because the airplane was destroyed and the FAA records show the airplane destroyed, you are going to have a hard time getting the FAA to approve what you are doing. Look up the registration or serial number on the FAA website.

If an airplane burns up in a fire or is flattened by a hanger collapse, you are "repairing" it no matter how much you replace.

The FAA around here has revoked a long time mechanics A&P and IA for doing just what you indicate you are thinking of doing. The fact is the FAA really does NOT want people building airplanes from an old set of paperwork.

Look carefully before you leap. Going experimental involves no more cost or effort than what you are wanting, and has none of the risks.

John Scott

[57cub]

If you go experimental the airplane wont be worth 3/4 of what it will if you certify it. You have to spend the same amount of money to build, so why not certify it. Just put new parts together and don't say a thing. The FAA inspector isnt going to know the difference once the airplane is put together. Remember FAA stands for "failed aviators association"

[drew]

I "know of" two Cubs (at least) that match the description of what you plan. So it has been done. Other than that, I have no advice. It is a completely "on you" kind of call.

[jay cross]

The Anchorage IA seminar is tomorrow. I am sure this topic will come up. I asked about it 3 years ago and the guidance at that time was you could change every part of a aircraft with pma parts and still have it be a cub. The issue was that could it all b e done at the same time. I think the bottom line is how hard you are willing to fight to get it done. If you ask for a conformity inspection and have the proper documentation on the parts you used, you have satisfied the letter of the regulations.

[jay cross]

I asked the question of the legal counsel for the Faa. I asked about using destroyed aircraft paperwork. Naturally no attorney is going to give you a black and white answer. Look at the regulations for delisted aircraft as opposed to a certificate that was turned in as destroyed. Two years ago the manufacturers got a law passed that they controlled the issuance of any airworthiness certificate for any of their aircraft built from parts, this effectively closed this avenue for certifying a new aircraft built to a type certificate, There is a part of the FAR's, I believe it is a 45 series that says if you remove a data tag a FAA inspector has to witness it. Does everybody do it? No not always, but the reg is there. The comment made by the feds is that there are about 8000 more aircraft registered than they can account for. This was followed by several horror stories. Basically the best paper work has the original data tag, logs airworthiness certificate and a portion of the fuselage. It goes down in value to you as these things are subtracted. If the aircraft is listed as destroyed there is a possibility that you could reverse the process but public law could be against you. Has anyone done it recently?

[aztecf]

If I bought a flying PA-12 with A/W cert, original data plate, complete logs
could I replace the fuselage and wings with new at the same time

Jeff

[jay cross]

Yes it would be be a perfectly legal restoration. One of the things they, the faa presenters, emphasized was the fact that only the original type certificate holder could certify an aircraft as rebuilt. A person or a shop may repair or restore but they cannot say they rebuilt it. This goes to remind everyone of the importance of keeping documentation of everything done on a certified aircraft. The airworthiness certificate, logs, and data plate are important information not easily replaced. I will also add a cravat to all this information, these people who put this out are from the Anchorage FSDO and other areas could see it differently. One other thing is when you change a fuselage or wing it doesn't go to 0 time in the logs, it retains the time on the original airframe.