I think I just bought a cabin on a lake in Alaska and need some help designing a float plane dock. I'll have to use all native materials because access is limited until I get the dock built.
What to use for the dock that can be easily removed in the fall before freeze up and still not get water logged during the summer?
Did you say you just baught us a cabin on a lake in Alaska ??????
Jerry,
A simple ramp constructed from spruce poles will work great 'till you can get the materials in there to build something more permanent. We used poles and some lumber, but have done the same with just spruce poles. Works great for us at the cabin in Canada.
David Haven't been to the place yet so I don't know what the bank is like but I'm sure that something as simple as what you show would probably for a while. Your welcome to come and visit I'll get more details on what and where.
Jerry,
Like David, I really prefer ramps. You can stick the airplane on the ramp coming in in virtually any wind. You can tail it up to face a big wind from the lake side. Hopefully, the shore side will provide protection from wind.
Ramps are great. Docks, while handy in some ways, can be a pain in winds, and take some real finesse to get in and get out.
I'd vote for a good ramp. If it's wood, don't forget to weight the outboard end with pipe, concrete, etc under the ramp, to get it to sink at least some. A floating ramp will "bonk" your floats pretty hard as they come into contact.
MTV
There was a thread on SC.org or the SPA website. There is a company that makes plastic blocks (they remind me of the bottoms of the basketball poles you see in driveways) that link together. You can make it as big as you want and any shape. Easy to take up in the winter. Only downside would be getting the blocks to the cabin and maybe cost.
Just a thought
Bill
I built a ramp at my place - way to go, it is at about a 15 degree angle, 30 feet long, 16 wide. the water end is about 2 feet under water. In a bad wind (incoming), I can stay under power and hit the ramp hard enough to stick the plane. It is crucial that the end of the ramp be far enough under water so as not to catch the step on the floats when pulling it up backwards (account for low water). I usually pull it up tail first, winch it out high and dry, and power off when time to go. I weighted the water end down with several five gallon buckets poured full of concrete, to keep it from floating up. I put four big spruce poles (about 30 feet) up on piles of rock 3 feet high on shore side, then the small ends were under a few feet of water 30 feet out. I used treated boards for decking. You could probably even used small spruce for the decking, then just nail down a couple strips of UHV plastic where the floats are so it slides in and out good. One tip- nail the cross boards or poles (decking) on before you sink the lake end. Impossible to try to drive nail under 2 feet of water. With heavier planes, I do not recommend powering them up the ramp too far. A real bugger to push them back down the ramp with the step on the floats digging in to the decking. A cabin in AK - I'm envious. Good for you!
Jerry,
Where is the cabin? Any good fishing for the Torch to be had there?
Don
Jerry---When I get done combining wheat and get YOUR yard work done next summer can I come see the cabin too--I could build a dock---Geezer2
One of those dock are about $20k.Originally Posted by Bill Rusk
www.jetdock.com
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
We are going to have a flyin for all the guys that fly cubs and have a tool box. Torch you can organize the crew because I'll be out trying to catch dinner.
It also depends on your visitors and what kind of planes they have.
A ramp doesn't work so well for a Beaver when your doctor friend comes to visit, or for a Helio unless you have step ladder handy. Ramps also don't work well if the shore is full of trees you don't want to take down. I've got a rising bank that's treed and the dock hangs out 48 feet with a 16 foot T on the end. It's built in 16 foot x 8 foot sections and floats. The dock is two heights, the T section being 8 inches lower then the main part. This allows me to get a Beaver in and have the Cub tied up too, or a Helio from time to time. In the fall, I move the 4 sections against the bank and tie them up to some trees.
For bad wind days, I have some duckbills in closer to the shore line. I move the plane off the dock and tie it down floating where the keels not rubbing on the sand and gravel.
On advantage, if you have a big dock like that and you need to scrub the bugs off the leading edge it sure makes it easy.
Docks have their advantages, no doubt.
I've put Beavers up on a lot of ramps, however. Beavers work best on ramps IN A WIND as well as every other floatplane I've met.
If your doctor friend comes in a Lake, the dock won't work, but a ramp will--kinda sorta. Better than a dock anyway.
I've never met a floatplane that didn't work well on a dock, and that couldn't take substantial wind better when ramped.
Finally, dock your floatplane alongside a big, deepwater dock. Wait for a dump of nice, wet snow fall. I once walked down to a dock at first light on one of those days, and wondered where the Beaver that'd been tied at the end of the float had gone. I hadn't heard it leave, and I lived right there. Then I noticed the bow lines taught into the water. That was an ugly sight, folks. The four airplanes on the ramps were high and fine, though covered with a bunch of wet sloppy snow.
I like ramps, myself.
MTV
I also prefer ramps. If you build one and use treated lumber for the deck, space the boards a quarter inch or so apart. Once treated lumber gets soaked up, it is VERY slippery. If the deck boards are spaced too far apart, the keel of the floats may get caught. 12 to 15 degrees of pitch is about right. Any steeper and the plane will slide back into the water before you get it secured.
Watch out for slippery ramps. I fell into cold water in November pushing a beaver off a ramp. And I was aware of how slippery it was!
How did that snow roll that Beaver Mike? Wasn't the weight distributed evenly on the wings?
Ramps are user friendly if properly used properly !When pulled up tail 1st it is a simple matter of undoing the ropes, stick forward and a little power, and you're on your way. Never any need to set foot on any part of the ramp that has been under water and gotten slippery !
All I can say is if you own a cabin up here, sooner or later you're going to bring a Beaver in with a load of something. Whether it's 200 gallons of heating oil, 100# bottles of propane, mattresses, whatever. Sooner or later it'll happen. Maybe it's a new metal roof, maybe it's 200 2x6's for a project. Maybe it's kitchen cabinets or a sofa. Doesn't really matter, a lot of stuff isn't going in a Cub, it's going in something made by Dehavilland.
When it does, it's a heck of a lot easier getting your materials out on a dock, then down the side of a float on a ramp.
But what I do I know? Only had a cabin on a lake in Alaska for 31 years.
There are now 32 cabins on the lake, not a single ramp, but around 20 docks. Strange.
We're in the shadow of McKinley. Often in the summer there's strong winds out of the north down the lake. Somehow we all survive. In June there's often 10-20 planes on the lake on any given day. No one ties to a ramp.
And Mike, this is Alaska. Putting a Lake on the dock isn't a big concern. A dock out to deep enough water to get a Beaver, Helio or Otter against it is. ATV's go best in a Helio and it's a helluva lot easier coming out that door onto a dock.
Guess if you just visit a place, a ramp might be alright. But if you use it, and have lots of visitors and maintain it year after year, you'll build a dock. Sometimes you build a few versions until you get the design that works best for you and doesn't get destroyed by the ice.
Cubs=ramps !
Beavers=docks??
We're putting both at our cabin. But some how I don't think I'll ever have my own Beaver to park at the dock !! Doesn't hurt to dream a little though !!
Go with the simple ramp and expand from there if you feel the need !!
How do you get materials into your place Dave J? How many people come and stay with you? Is it a place you use or a place you, your friends, your relatives use? When I get 4 people that come up to fish, I sure don't make umpteen million trips in the cub ferrying my aunts and uncles, I throw 'em in a Beaver. In a average week in June, I will have at least 4 people there, all for several days, loaded with gear, catching 40-60# kings daily. At the end of a 4 day stay, 4 people, gear, and 200+ lbs of frozen fish filets, you're telling me just use a ramp, thats all you need?
Different realities.
Stalled,
Well, I repeat, I used to deliver 70 barrels of avgas and jet fuel to a ramp every year, along with on the order of twenty to thirty 100 gallon jugs of propane.
You are no doubt correct that it is easier to unload those sorts of things at a dock. It certainly CAN be done with a ramp as well, though.
Part of what dictates your selection will also probably be the site. Some are friendlier for docks, some for ramps.
I still prefer ramps to docks for the security of the aircraft, though. The Beaver I spoke of was nosed up to the dock and tied off with bow lines.
The problem with a floatplane at a dock isn't rolling over, it's the tail getting heavy, sinking the aft pumpouts, which then fill those compartments, which sinks the plane more, till the water covers the next pumpouts, etc. This will happen at a dock in wet heavy snow conditions.
Of course, the conciensious owner would be out there sweeping all night, IF he knew it was snowing.
Go to Kodiak--used to was that all the commercial operators there used ramps for loading--because that's what the city provided, cause that's what the operators wanted. Go figure.
One advantage of docks is that you can tie a boat up there as well. And, Stalled, I'm not implying that it is impossible to dock in winds. It's harder than ramping, though. Since when do you folks up in that part of the world actually experience "WIND" though
But, to each his own.
MTV
Mike V, I was thinking about your comment of the Beaver rolling over at a dock due to heavy snow. Trying to make sense of it. After being around Lake Spenard / Hood since they put in the canal, and seeing a lot of planes in the water when we get the first dump of snow, I've seen a few get pushed down until the keel touches the bottom. When it's snowing like that, and you get caught before you've come out of the water, most people i know keep an eye on each others planes to prevent that kind of thing. Wet snow slides off pretty easily usually unless you have mesh covers on. I've not yet seen a plane "roll", especially a beaver with 2000 lbs of displacement you have to push under. Seems like the snow would slide off as it began to roll. The only thing I can think is the owners didn't check on the plane, and that the tail got heavy, pushing the rear compartment under, filling it, then doing the next compartment and so on until it rolls. I know a guy who knocked a hole in his rear compartment on a 185, taxied out on Quiet Lake and rolled the plane as he was turning for departure. I know from experience a Beaver with 1/2 tanks, and 2000lbs strapped on the spreader bars has the rear bar under water. Overloaded, yeah but it used to happen with regularity. Now all the guys want is 1400lbs on (wimps!). So you're saying the Beaver took over 2,000 lbs of a snowload, flipped and went down? Maybe I read it wrong. When it's that gnarly out, you check on your investments and your friends.
Don't know if it was there when you were Mike but how did that dock with the ramps in it work that was on the Kodiak Near Island channel? Seemed to be the best of both worlds really as you could tie up to it and load quick from the dock end or run it up on the ramps to park for the night. There the ramps were nice so you could stop the floats from beating against the dock from boat wakes. Probably a bit expensive for a remote cabin.
Sorry Mike, you posted as I was typing.
My only additional comment is, anyone who ties to a dock with just bow lines in a place like Kodiak with wind, rain, heavy snows and whacky weather, and leaves it that way overnight (not just to fuel or something) deserves what they get.
By the way, the only floating plane I have seen NOT make it onto a dock on our lake was a Albatross. I just got hung up out in the water. If you want to carry a load, THAT is impressive.
ah, bow lines. I also was thinking of tieing up by the side, which i have also heard of them being rolled but by heavy winds. never thought of tieing one up by the bow as now I would take up 48 ft of dock space assuming a standard dock.
I'm trying to figure out how to post a picture of the City Dock in Kodiak here. I still can't figure out how to post pictures. Grrrrr.
I know, I know, do a search. Did that and came up with 51 pages.
MTV
Mike, Open the photo from your album then right click on it. Left click on properties. Select the address and copy it. Go the the posting page and left click on the img icon. When in appears, right click immediately following it and paste the address. Left click on the img tab again.
[.img]http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data//500/medium/citydock.jpg[/img]
This is what it should look like less the period ahead of the first img.
Hope this is clearer than mud.
MTV,
Email me the pic and I'll post it.
All having been said, I still prefer the ramp !!!
Stalled,
We are fortunate in that the highway runs close by, so gettin stuff there is relatively easy. Usually throw it all in the boat at the landing. Not the same situation, but Jerry was looking for a simple solution for a temporary problem. I just thought a ramp would be easily made from materials at hand until final arrangements could be constructed.
cool beans on the posting video test test If I can do it anyone can
Now if I could understand why you have to go to START to shut OFF the computer I will be happy
I use a ramp for my Cub, but to make it easier with water level changes and to be able to use a stationary dock with it, mine floats. It also is hinged and is lifted up out of the water with a winch/cable/pulley system. It keeps the plane up out of the water and waves, and with the turn of a switch (all 12 volt battery powered) it lowers and the Cub launches easily. Plane can be put in either nose first or tail first.
The most important part of using it I think is securing it. I use several 5' screw in anchors and can adjust the lines from the floating ramp when needed for different water depths. Right now I have it setup along side a stationary dock, anchored and tied off to the dock. And I use spring lines to keep it from rubbing on the main dock when the wind comes up.
It can be used in shallow water or deep water, along the shoreline or at the end of a dock.
This was when I used it along the shoreline.
Like Mike says, ramping a plane even with wind is a lot easier than coming along side a dock, keeping the float off the dock and getting tied up. Coming into a ramp with very little power the plane will stick at the top of the ramp, hop out and turn the switch and the plane is up and out of the water in about a minute, everything is very stable and secure.
With the ramp raised, loading and unloading gear and supplies from the plane is even easier than from a dock, with the plane high and dry and not moving in the water. And the ramp can be kept free of slick growth, since it is raised out of the water part of the time. I leave mine down when I'm out flying, but you can use a remote controlled winch and raise it when you taxi out, then lower it when you taxi back to the ramp after a flight. I've got a steel plate attached to the underside of the end of the ramp to sink it. With the winch you drop it to whatever incline works best for your plane.
Gregg Anderson
Oak Harbor SPB
This will be easier to see!
Dave J, up here, you rarely have road access to anywhere you want to be. You don't have materials just laying around ready to use. I've done a lot of remote building, and not once did I go "oh look, we can use that plywood laying there". If it's there, it was hauled in, or cut, for a purpose.
Floats, nice flat treeless bank there. Unfortunately, if you build on ground like that here, whatever you've got is going to float away sooner or later. Be it ice or flooding. That little platform would never survive a season on any the popular lakes around here.
One thing I forgot in to say, on the outward end, don't in drive posts unless you have too. Tails hit them, floats can bang against them. Get some duckbills down under the dock and run straps or heavy bungees up to the dock. Use some kind of clip so you can unhook it and float it to the shore in the fall. Or build a ramp, and a ramp for your friend, and tie up all that shoreline with airplane wings. If you do build a dock, it must be floating or you'll spend a lot of time lowering it or raising it to match your floats, boats, or whatever toys you have around.
Last summer we had over 24" of swing in the water level in 3 months. I am sure the guys at Shell saw that kind of fluctuation too.
I find it interesting that all you rampers live in the states (even Mike has moved).
I am probably going to piss off most of you here but another means of securing a sea plane is a well anchored bouy.
In fact that is almost the only thing we used to use, but we were flying PBY's.
Thanks, Guys, I got it. Ramps or docks, they all work. Docks and Ramps both need to be secured to the bottom somehow, or they'll move.
I've left ramps in the water and let them freeze before. Sometimes no problem, sometimes had to go on a scouting mission in the spring to retrieve. Depends on the lake. That would not be a good plan with a dock.
Whatever winds your watch, works for me.
MTV
Roger that David I haven't visited the place yet and don't know what the beach looks like so maybe I'll go with a ramp it the trees don't get in the way. And when you visit I should have an additional ramp or two I sure don't want to turn down all that help I'm going to get this summer.
stalledout:
As I mentioned, it can be located anywhere along the shoreline or by a dock, it's floating like a normal floating dock. This one has been used along a tree line, with a walkway going from shore to the ramp. It has been used along a couple different docks and along the flat treeless shoreline in the picture.nice flat treeless bank there. Unfortunately, if you build on ground like that here, whatever you've got is going to float away sooner or later. Be it ice or flooding.
stalledout:
stalledout:If you do build a dock, it must be floating or you'll spend a lot of time lowering it or raising it to match your floats, boats, or whatever toys you have around.
You say to build only a floating dock. Why will a floating dock work where you are and not a floating ramp? I'm curious, and always looking for a better way of doing things. This one has been through a couple hurricanes.That little platform would never survive a season on any the popular lakes around here.
Gregg
Floats, I suppose because I don't just put a cub on it, there's boats, Cubs, and assorted other things on the dock. It's very common to have two planes on the dock at once, as well as a boat, sometimes two or three.
We're talking a cabin, not your primary tie down location. Cabins are recreational and recreation means toys. It also means friends and others stop by. Your ramp looks nice, I'm sure it works great for your application. I do a lot more with a dock than park a single plane against it.
Until the winds top 40, it's fine tied securely to the dock. Above that, I'll float it off and tie it down to the duckbills in the lake bottom faced into the wind. Might even put on the mesh covers to spoil the lift. I can get the covers on standing on the dock, with a ramp or other method you'd be on a ladder. I can also stand on the dock and scrub the bugs off the leading edge. I don't know if you have that issue where you are, but here, you'll find your leading edge becomes loaded after a few flights. You'd have to have a ladder on your platform to do that.
I'm glad it's been through hurricanes. We have different forces of nature, ice and wind. You'd be amazed at the power of ice and wind.....
One other advantage of the dock is I can disconnect the sections and use them as a floating barge / platform. I'd do that to get machinery across the lake from time to time.
I'm curious where Gastons property is, if it's in the interior, southeast or south central.
Whatever works.
I'll take lashed to the lift (or a ramp) over tied to the dock any day for a good nights sleep. Survived over 90 MPH winds this summer that were direct on the left wing tip. At one point the left wing was 4 feet higher than the right and it tried to weather cock..even with 5 ropes on it..but it survived unscathed thanks to the extra weight of the lift and docks it's attached to. There would have been no time to move the plane from a dock to better mouring during this freak storm that destroyed a good part of the old growth forest of Temagami and flipped some C185's into the drink that were tied to the upwind side of docks.
..and before you set me straight as well stalledout....I've got the visitors and toys covered as well. lol
Float
How does it work? Could you send me a drawing or explanation? I have a cabin and the floating ramp looks like a winner. andersenroger@yahoo.com
Thank you,
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks