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Thread: Compare straight Wip 2100s to EDO 2000s

  1. #1

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    Compare straight Wip 2100s to EDO 2000s

    Anyone have experience with Wip straight 2100's and Edo 2000? I have flown the new Kenmore Edos on my PA-12 and was very satisfied with the performance and workmanship, but I like the idea of the flat top and large lockers. Wip wants 24K compared to Edos for 16,5. Any advice from you guys?

  2. #2
    mvivion's Avatar
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    The Wipline floats are great floats. The flat decks are very nice, and the lockers are really a fantastic boon with any airplane. People like them to put even more junk in an already heavy airplane, but where they really shine is when you have really stinky stuff or stuff you'd just really rather not have in the cabin with you.

    As to performance, in my experience, on comparable airplanes, at comparable and legal weights for the 2000's, the EDO's will win a takeoff contest every day. Not by a whole bunch. And, remember, the Wips are bigger floats, so if you are flying really heavy.....

    MTV

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    What about Baumann's?

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    EDO's seem to be built a little stronger then wips. I've noticed the wips will chatter a bit in chop. In my experience, not a whole lot difference in performance. The wips turn a little better on the water when using the water rudders. But are a pain to tail up to the beach. The flat tops and hatches are great! But the wip water rudder retract handle is lousy and takes a lot more effort to pull. Most guys throw that away and find an old EDO handle or get a different handle from Atlee Dodge.
    The best thing going for wips is they are slightly larger and have the 2000 lb. legal gross for PA-18. Downside is there aren't many used ones. You can get used EDOs that are functional for 10 or 12K. Buy two sets for the price of some new wips. Just my $.02.
    Webfoot

    Anybody got an update on Kenmore's PA-18 gross weight increase project?
    Owned same cub for 26 years!!!

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    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Frank,
    as for Baumanns I ran a set of 2100s against a set of EDO 2000s this fall on two PA-12s. I had asked about how they compared on another site and Mike Vivion gave me the run-down with his experience.
    My observations verified what he told me. The EDOs are faster off the water, the Baumanns are faster in the air for some reason.
    Baumanns have the flat tops and one big hatch. On a couple very small lakes, I was barely able to get out with the Baumanns, where the EDOs were off the water half way across the lake. Once off the water, the Baumanns were noticably less draggy. I can't figure out why... If the price was exactly the same, I would have a hard time making up my mind between the two.

    What type of floats you like seems to be pretty personal. I flew a C-185 on 3500 Aerocets and wanted to hate them, compared to the much smaller 2870 EDOs. BUT, after a while those big oversized plastic float kinda grew on me. If I was working a lodge on a lake , that would be all I would put on a C-185 or 206...


    xx

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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Alex and Mike,

    I am looking strongly at going to Baumans from EDO's, pulling pots from EDO's is a pain.

    Your comments are very clear that it takes lots more water to get them off, is that with big loads only, or is it all the time?

    Also, how does the construction/durability compare between them?

    What is the airspeed difference between Edo/whip/Bauman.

    Bauman has much better aerodynamics in the attach sections, especially on the spreader bars, so faster airspeed is reasonable.

    Thanks for the help.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  7. #7
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    IN my limited experience, comparing virtually identical airplanes on the three floats, the EDOs seem to outperform the other two on takeoff by a bit. I didn't find the difference huge, but it was noticeable. I'd say 10% or so, maybe a bit more.

    On the other hand, the Baumanns and Wips have really nice lockers. The Baumanns (don't tell the feds) don't have any weight restrictions on the lockers. Baumanns are fast, no doubt. And, they are very light, much lighter than the other two.

    Water rudder effectiveness is purely a function of rigging them right, in my opinion, but the Wips have those damn centering slots, when the water rudders are up, meaning with the rudders up, you are always fighting some spring pressure on the pedals. Take em off if you like, but it's not legal.

    The EDOs, as noted, are only approved to 1760 on the Cub. Same for the Baumanns, even if you have the Wip kit. The Wip 2000 pound kit specifies Wip floats and wheels, period.

    If I were buying new floats for a Cub, I'd buy the Wips, just for the 2000 pound kit, frankly. That is the big selling point. Consider this: the 2000 gross kit applies on wheels as well. It costs somewhere around $4000 by itself. Buy the Wip floats, get the 2000 pound kit with the floats, and you are still ahead of a $4000 cheaper set of EDO's. The Chinese built EDOs are probably really nice, but why would you buy a set of new 2000's, when there are dozens of used sets in good condition?

    Again, if I were buying new, I'd definitely go with the Wips. The upgross kit is worth the other rather minor issues, in my opinion.

    MTV

  8. #8
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Mike,

    Grilling you because you are the first person I know that has flown all three...

    You say 10% more on takeoff, is that the Baumans/Wips take the same amount of water, which is more than edo?

    The Baumans have a much deeper keel, did that change anything in your opinion?

    Thanks for your comments. I am looking to change floats, just have not getting there yet.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  9. #9
    Cranman
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    Mike,
    I think it is OK to take off the centering slots on the Wip floats. I used to fly around with the rudders down to eliminate the spring pressure. The last time I was at Wip's , the mechanics offered to take off the centering slots (bars) saying that they were no longer needed. This is on my 2100A's. I assume they are the same as straight 2100's.

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    Somewhere in my files I have a copy of the DAR flight test data on the Baumann's. If I remember correctly there is a comment in it about the Baumann's being dimensionally similar to the EDO 2000's. Bud Baumann told me it was using the stretch formed bottoms that allowed him to keep the weight down and retain good strength. If I remember correctly he pulls the bottoms off the same forms he made to make replacement bottom skins for the 2870/2960's. The skins are just cut town for the smaller floats.

    I think the Baumann's are also mounted at a lower (flatter) angle of attack than the EDO's and that's what makes them faster in flight. It could also explain why they are slower off the water.

    Without a GW increase though, WIP's are the only logical choice on certified. (How many sets of amphib's do you think Wip would sell without the GW STC)

  11. #11
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I was going to take some measurements today but forgot my tape measure.

    I am wondering about the position of the step on the Baumanns compared to the EDOs. It seemed like the EDOs step-turned better than the Baumanns. Once off the water the Baumann equipped PA-12 seemed to accellerate slightly faster... It cruised about 8-10 mph faster than the EDO plane with the same load, same prop and both with a 150 horse wide deck.

    I have flown a whip- floated PA-18 out of the same lake, but it was a 180 horse so it left the water much faster. So I could not compare it.

    Below are two photos of Loon Lake. There is only one escape path.
    It is about 1600 feet from the little channel in the back to the trees on the escape side. The overhead photo makes it look larger than it is. the photo of the escape path was taken from the starting pount and the little islnad in that photo is the little island in the overhead photo. I marked the lift off areas that seemed to re-occur on several take-offs, in similar wind conditions.

    http://<br /> &#91;img]http://sparky.su....jpg&#91;/img]

    http://<br /> &#91;img]http://sparky.su....jpg&#91;/img]

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Alex,

    That looks more or less consistent with my experience as well. As you say, hard to compare different aircraft.

    On similar aircraft, I've found the EDO's offer the best T/O performance, next are the Baumanns, then the Wips. None of the differences are huge, by the way, and note that this is operating at similar loads and weights.

    Frank, I think you are right on. The fluted bottoms on the Baumanns are right off the 2870/2960 EDOs. They are the reason they slightly out perform the Wips, I think. I also think you are correct on the angle of incidence as to speed. That said, I think the Wips are the same as the Baumanns, and they aren't as fast. Weight may be also a factor. No doubt, though, the little stumpy Baumanns are fast.

    It would be fun to compare one of these airplanes with a 2130 float. I saw a pretty impressive difference between those and 2000s on the 172.

    I also completely agree with Frank, however, on the choice of floats for a SUper Cub--That is a total No Brainer: Get some Wiplines, for the 2000 kit.

    Now, if it were a Husky, it'd be Baumanns for me. No ventral fin required, whereas all the other floats require one for that airplane.

    Alex, your illustration on the takeoffs agrees with my experience on the Husky as well. The book says 1200 feet at max gross weight to clear 50 ft obstacle on floats. I've done just that at +80 F.

    MTV

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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Seems to me you guys have missed a huge point on this.

    The AOA on step. It seems to me like when you are on step with the wips you are flat, with the EDO's you have a positive AOA.

    Tim

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    delete

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Crash,

    Your observations are correct. That said, whoever certifies the floats decides what the AOI is on the airplane, not us. Change struts, and you are outside certification and unairworthy. That may or may not be a big deal to some, but.....

    The trials I discussed involved pretty much new floats, no scum, no dings or dents. Three pilots, each flew each airplane, and the airplane was virtually identical. These weren't Cubs, though.

    MTV

  16. #16
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Crash, as for my observations, it was me flying multiple take-offs and landings in lakes that I am very familar with. The planes being loaded close to legal gross on all occasions. The Baumanns seemed not to get on step a fast and thus had a lift off further down the lake. AOA or position of the step vs the CG???
    That particular lake (in my photo) is pretty short and nobody in the right mind goes there anyway,(except me) so for actual purposes there is not much difference.

    If I was buying floats for a government agency of a larger 135 operation, the Whips would be right up there on the list as would the Baumanns.

    BUT, If I was buying floats out of my own pocket and using them on a beat up Cub, to haul in and out of short places, ,,,,, a set of $10,000 used EDOS sounds pretty good.



    xx

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  18. #18
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Baumanns web site says that their BF-2100s weigh 247 pounds installed with all the rigging. They are 15 ft, 11 inches long.

    The Aqua web site says that their 1900 models weigh 270 pounds installed. They are 16.5 feet long.

    I can't find the EDO 2000 official install weight with riging on their web-site. Nor the length. I will measure them later when it gets light and I feel like going outside...

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    I had the good fortune to be involved in the certification process for the Baumann BF1500's on my T-Craft. Joe Birkemeyer flew my plane using several different rear strut lengths. When I went and test flew it myself prior to certification he had a good combination. It has a higher AOA than the drawings showed for the old 1420's and the off water performance was better. The cruise did not seem to be affected (95+- MPH TAS) was what we got during the FAA test flight. C85 @2400 RPM with 72-42 McCauley. My plane performs better with the Baumann's than the old 1320's that were on it before. I think the rigging was wrong with the 1320's...AOA was too flat. I will note that the sweet spot on the T-craft is small on either brand.....Is it the same with the Baumann's VS EDO's on other models...i.e. Baumann 2100'and EDO 2000...@ Wip's?

  20. #20

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    And what about Full Lotus Floats? All the guys with the Smith kits and other experimental cubs can use 'em. Talk about a float that loves to stick to water...........

  21. #21
    mvivion's Avatar
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    I'd imagine that bears would love chomping on them as well, based on experience with floats on helicopters.

    MTV

  22. #22

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    Does anyone of you actually own a set of straight wip 2100s on a PA-12 or 18? If you do, what do you think of them?

  23. #23

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    Cub Floats

    I was interested to hear some direct comparisons between Cub floats. Last winter we found some used Baumann's and ran them for the summer here in northern Minnesota wher the lakes are big and performance is not really an issue. As an Alaska seaplane driver in a previous life I have always been a hardcore EDO man. They flat get out of the water better than anything. But I'll take the Baumann's hands down in civilian life. If I was buying new, I'd buy the Wips for the gross kit.

  24. #24
    mvivion's Avatar
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    And, I think that nicely sums it up for me as well.

    They are all nice floats.

    MTV

  25. #25
    McAlpine's Avatar
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    I see there are a set of New Aqua 1900 Floats for sale in the Classified section. Has anyone had any experience with them?

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