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SC vs. 7GCBC ?

The other thing this will help with is whether to build ex or certified. I dont imagine I wont be able to adjust to the flight qualities of any given airframe for that matter. The 135hp tripe has served me fine for what I used it for, and I figured it out just fine and enjoyed it completely.
 
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Owned both. Best plane I had was a wood spar 1974 Scout with small tanks and fixed pitch 80/41. It was light and had little for instruments. Even with the heavy ass Gill-35 battery in the tail at close to #30 the plane was a point and shoot aircraft meaning quite snappy and I made multiple trips to AK from MN in it. Very enjoyable machine for trips. Heavy tail allows for aggressive braking. One day I drank the Kool-Aid and then bought a restored 58 PA-18A 150. With just me in the cub/light it did well and I liked the lighter cub for ski and float applications as I was equipped with 3000 Aero's and Edo 2000's. Ground handling was easier. With full fuel and gear in each the gap between the 2 models closes and I preferred the lightweight Scout. No doubt the pros taking in sheep hunters in such a competitive industry need every edge allowed. The modded PA-18 out performs the Scout and that slight edge can be the difference in a successful 30K Dall sheep hunt vs going bust with an unsuccessful client headed back to the lower 48. If you are not needing to land on postage stamp sized sandbars for Face Book notoriety or run a outfitting business I'd get a 160 7GCBC that's light or an older Scout. Not sure of your mission but I've dropped skydivers and hauled some heavy loads in comfort with heat using the 8GCBC. As far as economics goes my old Scout burned 7.5 gph at 2350, at like 115 mph. Most cubs I fly with using the 0360 are sucking 10 gph. My 0320 Cub burned like 9-9.5 as I was running close to 2400+ because it's so slow. On one AK trip I came in with the lowest fuel budget comparing a Champ, PA-11, and SC flying the same trip. Wide body cubs made a big impact on comfort but the price point of the Citabria/Scout at least as far as used models goes is a big factor to consider. There is a low time 7GCBC on Barnstormers now located in MI. with like new Edo 2000's at 35K. That allows some dollars for mods and upgrading. I'm no pro so I don't need to fly the edge. My newer Scout is heavy but I knew that going in. It works for me.
 
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I like both the PA-18 and 7GCBC or 8GCBC. I owned two each of the Cubs and early wood spar Citabrias and flew a wood Scout for work some. Had the same 2000 floats and skis on the Cub and 7GCBC and flew year round.

The Citabria is heavier and has a smaller wing area (chord and span) when factory stock. That can be changed with VG's, STOL kit (cuff/fence/flap extensions) and various tip extensions. Longer Scout gear (both the heavy and newer lighter) improves AOA. On floats the Citabria can take a little more water, but like on skis, the difference was a fuselage length or two at best. Useful load on conventional gear depends on configuration and the GW increase on floats (1650>1800) may keep the useful close to the same.

If I found a good Citabria I'd strip all the unneeded interior furnishings (carpet and plush materials), if needed recover with lighter fabric, add long gear and wing area plus light weight electrics, and install a long prop. I had the stock prop, 80/40-42, 76 and 80" constant speed. The CS setup makes then nose heavy but the 80" does pull and then cruises fast (125+).

After all those years of flying both today I'd be fine with a Citabria as long as the expense was reasonable. Cubs are fun and a better resale when the time comes to move on. And as noted, parts are plentiful with more available each hunting season 8)

Gary
 
Rsrguy,
If you have the option to build experimental I would suggest you take that path. Probably the best mod for
A GCBC would be the new Grove style "Scout gear legs"
Next would be a Catto 84/36 prop for the O320. If you build your wings with full ribs right out to the last rib and put a buttrib out on end and use Scout wingtips jou will see 5 mph reduction in your stall speed. Then VGs and you will down in real STOL numbers.
The truth about what you can get by with: Is usually grossly overrated; and I would be surprised if 2 percent on this forum, are working their Cubs to the edge everyday, nor do they need to. Alot dream of being a guide and actually doing all the wild stuff they have heard stories about. When we watch Youtube videos of guys landing on sandbars that they claim are 300' on 35" tires and it looks like 800' and you could easily land there with a 65hp Tcraft on 8:50s it is quite amusing to watch.....
The romance of an 18; with a "big black prop" and BIG tires.
Has gotten the best of lots of fellas over the years! Lol.
When we had to haul a bull moose off a 400' bar the 18 was the way to go. Or free fall off a 250' run at Sheep Camp; again the Super Cub was our go to. But honestly
That again is likely less than 2 percent of the crowd on here truth be told. If you need more performance than T/O
In 250' and land in 300' than a GCBC simply wont work for you. But if you could live with that???? It might just be your " huckleberry"

;-)
 
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I'm going have to ponder this a bit, on the one hand I could get every thing I want without imperial entanglement with ex. On the other.... I do have a commercial ticket.
 
Where is Andy Crane when you need him?

Glenn
For the next 3 weeks he has traded his 7GCBC for a DEERE S660. the only time we let him out is to go pee.

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This is a blast from the past. I see three years ago I was headed for warmer weather in the Scout. Probably with warm hands until we lost the snow. Sure miss that redhead some days
jim
 

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Some pretty interesting numbers from New Holstein STOL contest


Jim




And here are the top finishers...

Short Field Takeoff, Distances in Feet:



Shortest Landing Distance, in Feet...



Shortest Combined Takeoff and Landing:


Please note that Jim Stevenson and Riley Kennedy flew C170B adn C180, respectively. Their performances were nothing short (pun intended) of amazing!

Seriously, the ground crew, scorers and pilots did a wonderful job of putting on a safe, entertaining show. We found the performances of the pilots and their aircraft quite amazing, from top to bottom. Thank you!

For those who registered and couldn't come because of weather, we are sorry to miss you! For those who registered and just didn't show, you missed a pretty fun event.

Randy the Shooter​
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Take-off is not often the deciding factor. Once safe on the ground you have a myriad of options- including helicopter slings back home. Cut down trees, Wait for a favorable wind, clear rocks, fill holes, leave your (soon to be ex) wife to reduce weight.

Getting into that spot is the challenge.

I don't know everyone's plane, but as I look at the NH numbers it appears the cubs were ahead of the Citabria family by a significant amount, with Andrew being more than twice the combined difference. While each pilot has their own technique, it would seem that we had a pretty even group of talented pilots there.

A 7GCBC needs longer than stock gear to perform really well, seen that in action; but with taller gear, or the 8 version is a very capable machine, and if you learn how to fly it, and stay current you will be able to go most places the average cub guy goes. Remember, Emalie takes her RV-4 with tail wheel mains to most of the places we cubs went at the WAD!

The separation comes when you decide to do other than normal. Where a cub going into most 500' strips is a no sweat idea, a Citabria you need to pay attention and be more on your game. IF you want to fly the normal 50 hours a year and head out to hunting camp where you have 500' with a dogleg, that citabria might be a little more of a challenge to handle.

To compare, one should compare equal skill, and equal equipped planes. A top pilot with a fully modified 7 will most likely make a weekender with a stock cub feel silly. But top pilots in equally modified planes the cub will land and take off shorter every time, and the Citabria guy should have been there ahead enough to get the tent set up!:p

None of the options are a bad way to go. Non-current and non-proficient in the plane will be the biggest loss of performance. After over 1,000 hours in the same cub, most of it commercially, I moved to the Maule. Yes, it will land in 300', and take off light in 250' (and I have done it). Does that mean I work my 400' cub strip or my 650' one way cabin strip?

NOPE. No margin:p:wink:
 
Take-off is not often the deciding factor. Once safe on the ground you have a myriad of options- including helicopter slings back home. Cut down trees, Wait for a favorable wind, clear rocks, fill holes, leave your (soon to be ex) wife to reduce weight.

Getting into that spot is the challenge.

I don't know everyone's plane, but as I look at the NH numbers it appears the cubs were ahead of the Citabria family by a significant amount, with Andrew being more than twice the combined difference. While each pilot has their own technique, it would seem that we had a pretty even group of talented pilots there.

A 7GCBC needs longer than stock gear to perform really well, seen that in action; but with taller gear, or the 8 version is a very capable machine, and if you learn how to fly it, and stay current you will be able to go most places the average cub guy goes. Remember, Emalie takes her RV-4 with tail wheel mains to most of the places we cubs went at the WAD!

The separation comes when you decide to do other than normal. Where a cub going into most 500' strips is a no sweat idea, a Citabria you need to pay attention and be more on your game. IF you want to fly the normal 50 hours a year and head out to hunting camp where you have 500' with a dogleg, that citabria might be a little more of a challenge to handle.

To compare, one should compare equal skill, and equal equipped planes. A top pilot with a fully modified 7 will most likely make a weekender with a stock cub feel silly. But top pilots in equally modified planes the cub will land and take off shorter every time, and the Citabria guy should have been there ahead enough to get the tent set up!:p

None of the options are a bad way to go. Non-current and non-proficient in the plane will be the biggest loss of performance. After over 1,000 hours in the same cub, most of it commercially, I moved to the Maule. Yes, it will land in 300', and take off light in 250' (and I have done it). Does that mean I work my 400' cub strip or my 650' one way cabin strip?

NOPE. No margin:p:wink:

Just because you can land there doesn't mean you should. You mean conditions change????
 
Any video of ANDREW at NW horsing that Citabria around?

Eric
Sorry, just saw your post. I think his wife Chelsie has some on facebook, I will check it out.

TurboPilot describes it pretty well above, its got Alum Scout gear, a climb prop, VGs, on 31s, the usual stuff. Andy has taken a lot of the 59 cadillac interior out, pulled out as much as possible. I have owned a couple 7gcbc, his is the sweetest flying one.
So its fairly light, if you can say that about Citabrias, the vgs keep it hooked up down slow. It needs 160hp to really sing. The biggest problem with the 7s is they have no useful load on paper. 1650 gross. New Years Day 2018 on a lunch mission to Vermont at -15 degrees, he can fly with a vest and no gloves, Russell and I in the carbon cub were popsicles

It would be a fun exercise to go work with ACA and build from scratch a Scout that was really light. Really look at what goes in. If you could come out of the back door with a 1250 lb Scout, swinging a long Hartzell trailblazer, I think it would be a screamer
jim
 
It would be a fun exercise to go work with ACA and build from scratch a Scout that was really light. Really look at what goes in. If you could come out of the back door with a 1250 lb Scout, swinging a long Hartzell trailblazer, I think it would be a screamer
jim

That would be the 2-place Bearhawk Patrol. Heck, some O-360 powered 4 place Bearhawks have been lighter than that with quite good cruise speeds.
 
The early wood spar 7GCBC's published load limits at 1650 GW are -2 to +5 G's Normal and Acrobatic Category (http://www.heilmannpub.com/N8746V_POH.pdf). It places it close to the typical Utility Category of -1.76 and +4.4 vs the typical Normal Category at -1.52 to +3.8. The reasoning and utility behind the value of those limits are left to the pilot.

To improve STOL these help:

Longer gear and larger tires to a point and added weight. I did the first Field Approval for gear as far as I know.
Better wheels and brakes like Grove's.
Elevator and aileron seals. The factory offered them or they can be a duplicated.
Removal of the lower flap gap fairing. It was installed to improve rate of climb and airspeed and not necessarily flap lift.
Wing extensions kept light. Some (drooped) are heavier than others.
VG's although they were unavailable when I owned mine.
Crosswinds STOL cuff, fence, and flap extension into fuselage. I liked mine but some may not. Might be good in combo with VG's.
I end-plated the outboard flap similar to flat plates on wings. It works but was not approved.
More overall flap extension. It can be done with cable, lever, and down stop adjustment.
Long light prop.
Donaldson air filter for better airflow than some. FAA PMA'd (https://donaldsonaerospace-defense.com/library/files/documents/pdfs/048554.pdf).
Lighter cockpit materials.
Lighter AGM battery and starter/alternator. Place battery to minimize forward CG excursion.

There may be more?

Gary
 
Long light prop

That black magic you can get from Nicole Catto, can I get an amen?

Most of the rest of the list 35Y has covered, except for the Scout wingtips, that is really interesting

jim

 
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Amen Brother.

Never ran one but the 80" CS Hartzell I had did well all-around. Even the 80" seaplane prop was an improvement on floats and skis in deep snow if I could keep the flexible tip from hooking up with any frozen crust while trapping marten. But weight forward becomes an issue especially with the requirement for a prop extension beyond the cowl.

Gary
 
To improve STOL these help:

Wing extensions kept light. Some (drooped) are heavier than others.
More overall flap extension. It can be done with cable, lever, and down stop adjustment.
Long light prop.

Gary
I got a field approval to place a full sized rib at the end of the spars with a Ferguson drooped tip outside that. 9:00-6 tires and a 1A175GM8046 prop for my 7GCB. It would very closely match a stock PA-18 in take off and landing. The short field, low speed performance was superb. The aileron effectiveness was improved tremendously. Apparently a military Hughy helicopter has a minimum speed at altitude. One of them tried to out slow fly my 7GCB. He fell off while the 7GCB did not with the pilot shaking his fist out the door at me. :lol:
 
Eric
Sorry, just saw your post. I think his wife Chelsie has some on facebook, I will check it out.

TurboPilot describes it pretty well above, its got Alum Scout gear, a climb prop, VGs, on 31s, the usual stuff. Andy has taken a lot of the 59 cadillac interior out, pulled out as much as possible. I have owned a couple 7gcbc, his is the sweetest flying one.
So its fairly light, if you can say that about Citabrias, the vgs keep it hooked up down slow. It needs 160hp to really sing. The biggest problem with the 7s is they have no useful load on paper. 1650 gross. New Years Day 2018 on a lunch mission to Vermont at -15 degrees, he can fly with a vest and no gloves, Russell and I in the carbon cub were popsicles

It would be a fun exercise to go work with ACA and build from scratch a Scout that was really light. Really look at what goes in. If you could come out of the back door with a 1250 lb Scout, swinging a long Hartzell trailblazer, I think it would be a screamer
jim


I'm sure American champion would work with you. And you would have great heat! would be nice to build an EXP, but theres not much for kits out there

http://bbiaviation.com/epic3150.html

Interesting. Wonder if it's heavy like his cub kits. Those wings are stout
 
Good story! HOGE limits? Maybe they were having some fun at their expense or were Cub drivers that wanted to help.

I went in sequence with wing mods from a stock new 1978 7GCBC to Crosswinds STOL to Madras tip extension. That tip extension was heavier than a similar extension with Scout ribs and tip would be (solid plywood rib under fiber tip). I'd do the latter Scout style again. Ferguson tips (Cub Crafter's droop tips?) are lighter than the Madras I believe. In turbulence the heavy droop tips flapped up and down a little like a bird's wing. Something to get used to with wooden spars.

Gary
 
I'm sure American champion would work with you. And you would have great heat! would be nice to build an EXP, but theres not much for kits out there

http://bbiaviation.com/epic3150.html

Interesting. Wonder if it's heavy like his cub kits. Those wings are stout
Interesting. I question the Champ's ability to stay in one piece with two doors on floats. I wonder if they are reinforcing something? My 7GCB on floats would wiggle so much that the door would pop open on rough water. The later 7GCBCs seemed to be stiffer. The Cub is solid with two doors on floats.
 
Some float planes be tweaked or twisted when sitting on hard ground. Grab the lift struts or tail and give them a good tug. Any airframe flex or loose fittings soon become apparent. Same as rough water landings I assume.

Gary
 
Jim,
We did a Citabria up years ago adding Buzz Wagners mod
For squaring the spars up right out to the end, for his droop tips. Uses full ribs out adding nearly 3ft more total lifting surface overall,
with a buttrib right on the end with two diagonal braces to
really stiffen it up and simply screwed on Scout wingtips.
Adding all that lifting surface from the aileron rib out to the end of is a major difference with combined with the
Scout tips. Honest 5mph lower stall speed. Noticeable more nose DOWN in level flight with trim needing to go forward 2" from normal position to get it to stop climbing!
Gives you super nice visibility in cruise. Aircraft had the old style early cowlings so you could simply bolt on a borer prop, no spacers involved, also ditched the struts and used Scout struts to get away from the dihederal, so you know the rest of the story. On 31" no wind and half tanks it was an honest 175' airplane.
Engine woulda turned a 82/42 prop 2500 static. Field Aprovals were lot simplier in the 90's.
We have the same exact wing set up on an experimental
sitting right here in Lincoln in the hanger if you or Andy want to check it out? This one is just a 7EC with a 100hp
but wing is identical to my other one, but has metal spars, and spring gear kit.
BIG deal on a Champ wing. Here it is on a real 250' sand bar.........
 

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This is essentially the same that I did to my 7GCB except that it was done long before the Scout tips would have been available. I made the tip ribs from plywood. When I look today at some of the places where I went with it, I'm amazed. It certainly was no slouch in the performance category.
 
Don't think you'd be happy with a set. Only marginally bigger than the 8.50s if at all
. And not sure they made any 4 or 6 ply. Super stiff. Better off with the Goodyear 26 in if you go that route. At least they are bigger.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 
I have a set of 9.00 X 6 Firestones. They are pretty cool, but really stiff and heavy. I'll never use them. If someone just has to have a pair, give me a call.
 
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