Canoes on float planes

[Bill Rusk]

To all

I have heard that some, or maybe all, floatplane charter companies restrict canoes to 15 foot long if they are to be carried tied to the float struts. True? I am considering a new canoe and am looking for input on length. I am building a Smith Cub and hope to put it on floats and take my canoe (and dog, but I don't plan to strap him to the strut..... yet ) to the North Country. Those of you who have had canoes as external loads what are your thoughts on the type, size and weight of the canoe.

Thank you

Bill

[behindpropellers]

Same question......what about two Kayaks? One on each side?

Tim

[Ruidoso Ron]

Bill, get yourself a Beaver, and take your Cub along.

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost...3&limit=recent

[RedEye]

Bill,
What size floats are you going with on the Cub ? 2000's= 16 ft long, 1800's = 15 ft .

[mvivion]

Bill,

Timely question.

First, you cannot legally carry external loads on aircraft in the Lower 48 States, unless its a Beaver or an Otter. I'm not sure this applies to Experimental (amateur built) aircraft, but I believe it does.

The deHavilland airplanes have canoe racks and kayak racks, as well as lumber racks, approved on their type certificates. Therefore, it is legal to carry external loads on those aircraft.

The Alaska Region of FAA has issued (a long time ago, but it's been recently updated) a policy on external load operations in Alaska. It is a good, logical policy, which probably explains why it hasn't been adopted nationally. That said, there is talk of doing just that.

Commercial operators CANNOT carry canoes unless they are operating one of the deHavilland aircraft mentioned, EVEN in Alaska. The airplane has to go into the restricted category, which is prohibited under virtually all 135 certificates.

Now, as to the size of canoe that actually works, assuming you are in Alaska, it depends on the type of aircraft. On a Cub type airplane, I really like to keep them short. I've carried 15 foot canoes on a Cub, but it ain't real pretty. The boat sticks way too far forward for comfort (upsets longitudinal stability) and the stern is back there playing with water rudders.

A 12 or 13 foot boat works just fine on a Cub. Two of them is a bad idea, unless you are REALLY light in weight. Two canoes with a GW load can give you religion.

Kayaks fly better than canoes, and I wouldn't be too afraid of two kayaks on a Cub. Again, try one first, see how it works, then try two at VERY light weight, see how that works, and then put a little load at a time in it.

Believe me, just a little extra weight with an external load can really get your attention, so go stepwise.

And, if you're in the lower 48, don't let the FAA catch you.

If you're in Alaska, get a copy of the external load policy from a FSDO, follow it and get a restricted category A/W certificate, and follow the instructions in the policy. It's good advice, generally.

I use ratcheting cargo straps to secure loads. I don't like rope, cause it's too hard to get really tight, and too hard and slow to untie. Get the cargo straps that have welded rings and hooks, and a good strong strap. They will last forever if you take care of them.

Oh, by the way, your insurance will be non-existent if anything happens with an external load, since you've changed the airworthiness category of the airplane. Unless, of course you can talk them into a rider on your policy . Yeah, like that'll happen.

MTV

[Dano]

There are some inflatable kayaks and canoes that will do the trick....not as nice as the real mcCoy...but they float...and you can keep them inside the plane....just bring a belows pump or electric if you have the ability.

[mvivion]

Company named Pakboat also makes some pretty nice folding canoes.

MTV

[Cubus Maximus]

Mike,

There's a company out of Seattle that stc'd a kayak for carrying on the spreader bars of Cubs on EDO 2000's. The old SCPA newsletter had a write up on it a number of years ago.

http://www.easyriderkayaks.com/design.htm

http://www.easyriderkayaks.com/cub_scout.htm

There is an operation in Tower (near Ely), MN that flies external loads on a 206 and 180. The Chicago FSDO folks came up and had a ball testing everything They have a one time STC for their airplanes. Gives 'em an advantage over the competition when hauling the backpack brigade into the hinterlands (most often the Quetico).

Brad

[kase]

First, you cannot legally carry external loads on aircraft in the Lower 48 States, unless its a Beaver or an Otter. I'm not sure this applies to Experimental (amateur built) aircraft, but I believe it does.

This letter from FSDO suggest that you can. Am I not reading it right?

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost...t_load0001.pdf

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost...t_load0002.pdf

[hikouka]

Wow - checking out that link Cubus Maximus gave us sure pulls up a winner. A canoe called "Cub Scout" that looks awesome

According to the site:

Cub Scout was created by Easy Rider’s Peter Kaupat specifically for his Super Cub floatplane.
It is carried upside down underneath the plane. And whether Peter flies into remote mountain lakes or saltwater bays to fish or explore, Cub Scout provides comfort & stability for two people.
Imagine the possibilities...
Cub Scout can be paddled kayak- or canoe-style. It can be rowed like a dinghy, or converts into a rowing trainer with a sliding seat assembly. And when equipped with an Airfoil Sail, it becomes a sporty sailer. Cub Scout is also a great platform for snorkeling and swimming. It floats any way you turn it -- on its side, even upside down.

At only 46 lbs with a heap of options it looks pretty darn good. Wonder if it could go on the Wips . . .

And those options! It can turn into a rowing boat, sailing boat, fishing boat, outrigger, glass bottom fishy viewing boat.

I think I'm in love with a canoe, I guess I really am a sucker for Cubs

[wilhelm tell]

Clamar has developed a Canoe for the aviation application. As you can see from these pictures it is designed to be carried on the left float.

We are in the process of developing a complete rack system to carry the canoe allowing you to enter or exit the A/C from the left side

We will have it at all our shows in 2006. Delivery mid summer 2006

Length- 12 feet long
Weight- 36 lbs
Finish- white epoxy primer

We use the same technology as our float program incorporating epoxy by infusion. This is a very tough canoe for 2 people that can be carried to your favorite lake on the side of your A/C.

Price estimate is $1800 US


www.clamarfloats.com


CLAMAR FLOATS
PHONE: 519.225.2399 EMAIL: info@clamarfloats.com
15099 Sixteen Mile Road,
R.R. #2, Denfield, ON
Canada N0M 1P0
Established in 1990 Clamar Technologies Inc.

[StalledOut]

It really all depends on the wind, how you tie them on and how slippery they are. They fly a lot better faced down on the spreader bars right down the center than they do strapped to a strut sideways on top a float. If you do it a lot, you want to have some kind of nylon/canvas cover for the canoe so it doesn't creat a "cup" affect that catches the airflow. A 17 foot fiberglass canoe down the center with a cover will fly better than a 14 foot aluminum canoe on top a float tied to the struts with no cover. Keep it about a foot back from the prop and tie it on. If you have a canoe with those wooden cross braces, don't use those to tie the canoe on around the spreader bars and then go fly. Especially if it's a fiberglass or kevlar canoe that you want to see again.

[mvivion]

Uh, Stalled, how do you work a canoe that big in between the diagonal brace wires?

I don't put anything but lumber on the spreader bars, and that I do very conservatively.

Canoes don't really need covers to fly well. One canoe on the vertical struts won't even be noticeable, except for a little speed change and maybe a little harder to turn in the wind.

Kase,

I am in the process of researching that right now. Thanks for that letter, that may get some interest going. There was an initiative last fall to institute a national external loads policy by the FAA. They stated clearly then that external load operations were not permitted in the lower 48 states. The guy who signed your letter, however, outranks that guy.

I read the letter as you do, though it's just vague enough (allowed within the current FAR's--really?? Where, pray tell?) to be a little ambiguous. I suspect they wanted to get a Senator off their backs, so they fudged just a bit.

I can show you a FSDO maintenance inspector who says telemetry antennas would require a field approval AND restricted category ops. Obviously HE didn't read that letter.

I'm still on the guys in DC on this.

Stay tuned. And, thanks again for that letter.

MTV

[sra_tony]

Thought that I might just throw this out there. I have an external load permit to carry one or two canoes on a set of EDO 1650's. Course didnt say I would do it. Just that the FSDO issued me the paper work. Oh and did I mention this was on a 115 horse Citabria??

[wlt]

I don't know about the Lower 48 but here in the Upper 48 one can get a restricted External Load certificate. I have one for my 15AC. Requirements include only "crew", so Pax in right seat is required to observe the load. Issued by the FSDO.

[hikouka]

Found another canoe, this time a foldable one, for the yet to purchase floats . . .
http://www.porta-bote.com/seaplane.htm

[superchamp]

Regarding the guy in Tower MN with the approval for canoes, his name is Bud Van Duessen (Van Air Inc). He got the STC (or 337?) to carry canoes on his 180 and 206. He did all the flight testing etc. with the FAA, spin entry all that stuff. I know him well - he could fill you in on the details - but he spent a lot of time and money to get the approval. In my Stinson- I carry a Sevylor Fish Master inflatable boat. It weights 43 pounds, packs into a package about 2 feet by 18 inches by 1 foot. A put a 2.5 yamaha 4 stroke on it. It's 10 feet long and about 40 inches wide -outside dimensions. It is amazingly stable and handles rough water. They call it a 5 passenger, but realistically it fits 2. If your cub doesn't have a folding rear seat, it might be difficult to get it over the top of the back seat and into the baggage area. I bought the motor bracket, 2 piece oars, and and 2 way pump. I can have it in the water in about 20 minutes. The fold a boats work great and are very roomy, but won't fit inside anything much smaller than a 206. I sure hope they allow external loads again- I would order a fold a boat immediately if they do.

[stevensonjr]

I tried to get external load approval for my Husky on 2100 amphibs. The feds out of the Baton Rouge office were very polite and encouraging--FOR 2 1/2 YEARS! I gave them all the paperwork that the feds in Alaska had sent to me, outlining their approval methods and aircraft types, etc. All that I got from them is that they were working on it and it looked good. After 2 1/2 years I got a letter stating that they didn't have enough information to make a decision and would probably never have enough information. My phone calls to the people I thought I was working with were never returned after this. So approval in the lower 48 will probably never happen. Bill

[mvivion]

I've been talking to the chiefs of a couple divisions of the FAA. The national policy on external loads isn't dead, but it has slowed significantly, due to internal pissing contests, it would seem, at the highest levels.

The Pak Boats fit easily in a Cub. If you buy the 10 foot single person boats, two will easily fit in a Cub. I put one in each float compartment of a set of Baumann 2100's as well.

The larger 14 foot (2 person) boats will fit in the back of a cub, but they'll take up the whole back seat.

Still pinging on the FAA on the external loads question. Fun to stir the pot.

MTV

[freestone]

I have been looking at the porta-boat and now due to this web site the Pak-boat.

Anyone experienced these? This would be for a Beaver, which could carry external loads as Mike has mentioned.

I need at times to have either 2 or 4 folks in the boat - could be two different ones I suppose, a small motor. Use for the Puget Sound and lakes.

Criteria is easy to assemble, safety of carrying.

Could do external or internal load, and suppose non foldable too.

any thoughts?

[superchamp]

I've used the porta-boats and they are the cat's meow. Very stable, move nice with a small motor, comfortable. They make them I think up to 14 feet, and they sure fold up nice, and assemble in minutes. For a beaver I think this would be the ticket. Like I said before, if they ever approve external loads again I will have mine on order immediately. We used to have a 12 footer we always strapped on a buddy's PA-12 back when external loads were legal. One day we found a secret lake in Canada - fishing was so good we left it there. The lake was so secret we could never find it again (pre GPS days) so our boat is still in the bush up there somewhere. All those little lakes start to look alike.

[mvivion]

The Pak boats (the European version, which was copied by these guys is called the Alley Pak boat) is a great boat. They work well in up to big white water, they handle a small outboard motor well, and they are relatively light and easy to carry.

Takes maybe ten to fifteen minutes to set up or take down, once you get the hang of it.

They make boats up to 17, I believe.

I've got a 14.5, and love it. A good solo boat, or two works fine as well. I've spent a LOT of time in their 10 solo boats as well, and in protected water, these are great little boats.

These things are tougher than you might think, as well. We used them for years, all summer, dragging them through brush and in and out of small lakes, and had almost no problems.

Go together easy, work good, paddle well.

MTV

[freestone]

On the beaver, you would do external loads then not internal I guess?

I am more worried about 1 or 2 people assembling these things from the float and then putting it back.

Maybe I should just go canoe, but the water can get a bit rough, never know

thanks guys, your experience is valuable!

[StalledOut]

On a Beaver? Who cares. Put anything you want just about on it. a 14' Lund aluminum flat bottom boat flies just fine on a beaver. You can put 3 or 4 adults in it before it starts to sink. Get a 15hp Merc or Johnson to push it along and you're golden.

The Avon redshank, Johnson 4 hp and fuel tank will fit behind the seat in the cub. Might be a wee over 50lbs It's nothing in the back of a Beaver.

I've had some hellacious loads in and on a Beaver and it all flies. Eventually.

The heaviest load I was around with a Beaver was when I had 8 brand new RR ties and a single 100# propane bottle flown out. Those ties were bridge ties, 10 footers that were at least 250lbs each. The back spreader bar was completely under water. The pilot said "it flew a little heavy". No doubt.

[freestone]

Thanks - and I was thinking about ease of getting it off and on.

I am doing a full rebuild on one now, and debated whether to go with the Alaskan door and decided, not too late, against it since it added another 25lbs of weight at a pretty big arm (above that of the extended cabin I am putting in). Not a commercial use plane and though I love the thought of that door, I was worred about too much extra weight back there.

[mvivion]

StalledOut,

Note that the man is located in Washington, not Alaska.

While the Beaver has some external loads specified on its TC, they are VERY specific. Square stern boats are NOT there. Canoes and Kayaks are, BUT only with a deHavilland approved rack. Try to find one of those these days. Same with lumber. Nothing else is approved on the Beaver, unless you're in Alaska, and operate under a restricted category certificate. Which will void most every insurance policy I ever met.

So, canoes and kayaks are approved on the Beaver, but to be on the safe side, legality wise, you need at least something that looks like the deHavilland racks.

Lumber racks are easy on the Beaver, but again, if some fed wants to get picky, he can look for part numbers. I've never had that happen, but again, if you're insured......and anything bad happens.....

MTV

[irishfield]

Not trying to be political...but It's unfortunate that for a country that has so many given rights you guys get screwed so bad when it comes to aviation. Many states you can't even land a float plane on any body of water, can't haul a canoe or a door up to your cottage and have to get local township approval for a runway. We get screwed everywhere else up here...but when it comes to Aviation....runways are strictly Federal with the Provinces and townships having no constitutional power to assess planning power..thus we can put one anywhere but in the built up area of a city...and external loads...tie it on..test fly it and then go back and pick up your passengers. Next time the load is legal from the get go. Why do they have a canoe tieing contest at the Maine float plane event if you guys can't carry them?

As for a Beaver...daily haul up here...two 14'rs

[Crash]

I have one of these

http://www.boats.com/new-boats/zodia...00/details.jsp

except it is the older 320 model at 10' and weighs around 60 lbs. It fits in my Super Cub with an 8 hp outboard if I remove the rear seat. With two guys it will get on step and run about 25 mph. I have had two guys and an entire moose in it several times.

It takes about 10 minutes to set up from the time I pull it out of the plane. The floor is inflatable and hard as a rock with 14 psi in it. Crash

[mvivion]

Irishfield,

I'm not familiar with the external loads regs for Canada. They are, for lack of a better descriptor, all over the place in the US.

It's not a question of what an airplane can haul, aerodynamically, but rather what the regs will permit, and what your insurance carrier will tolerate, which has got to be the bigger issue, frankly. Assuming you carry insurance, of course.

The big difference between the US and Canada, is that in the vast majority of the US, floatplanes are virtually non-existent, and working floatplanes are even rarer.

So, where working floatplanes are relatively common, there are generally some provisions for external loads, but otherwise......

In any case, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that most insurance carriers would deny coverage on any external load operation that takes the airplane outside its Type Certificate, as does the picture you posted of the Beaver. That is, if the insurance carrier knows you're doing it.

But, there are some real traps and some nasty surprises in external load operations for those who get a little carried away.

MTV

[StalledOut]

MV....if every Beaver guy, or Otter guy or Cub guy in Ak followed the TC to the letter then 1/2 the stuff off the road system wouldn't be out there.

[mvivion]

Stalled,

Uh, in Alaska, you are permitted to operate with external loads, under a set of very liberal rules. It has NOTHING to do with the TC. Know any 135 guys who do external loads in Alaska, though, other than in Beavers and Otters??? Now, there's a guy with a Huey that's doing well out of Palmer or Wasilla, hauling external loads under FAR 133, helicopter external loads....

I agree, a lot of stuff has been hauled in Alaska on the outside of an airplane, and I've hauled as much as most folks that way.

My point was that those rules DO NOT apply in all parts of the country, OR in Canada, I'd bet. Hopefully, we'll make some progress on that front in the future, but don't hold your breath.

In the meantime, IF you have insurance, read the fine print. It will likely say something about "Standard category" in reference to your airplane. Put a LEGAL external load on your plane in Alaska, and it is now in Restricted category. And your insurance policy, if you have one, is now void.

Many don't have insurance. I've gone without at times. That is a personal choice, of course, and I'm not about to lecture on the merits one way or the other.

The point, and it applies to a lot of other things in aviation these days, is that the insurance industry prohibits a lot of things the FAA actually permits.

MTV

[freestone]

Mike, but if you put a canoe on a dehavilland carrier on the beaver, then that is still standard category and hence insurable?

[StalledOut]

Mike, if you are talking about Pioneer Helicopters they are operating out of Big Lake, not Palmer or Wasilla.

As for others, yes.......try to find a single engine Otter that will fly an external load these days. Let me know where I can cause I'd sure like to haul some loooong stuff.

Only Beavers these days for the most part 135 and an occasional 185 or Helio.

In a previous post you made it sound like you could only do what a TC specifies, my point is with Beavers few operators care. They only thing they've ever been concerned about is keeping the weight reasonable.

[mvivion]

Freestone,

Yes, the Beaver and the Otter were both Type Certificated with external loads, with the approved attachment gear. Take a look at the Type Certificate Data Sheet, or if you've got a parts manual, take a look at it. It will show the deHavilland racks.

Now--insurable??? I wouldn't ask. I would simply do it, per deHavilland's guidance, and not bring it up. Anything goes bad, your attorney would eat up the insurance company that tried to deny coverage. Why wouldn't they cover a standard category aircraft, operating within its operating limitations? But, I wouldn't bring it up, lest they decide to generate an exemption, and therefore make it prohibited.

Stalledout,

Sorry about the Big Lake, Palmer, Wasilla thing. To a guy who spent 20 years in FAI, all those places are sorta the same spot .

I realize what your point was. I was simply clarifying. I seriously doubt if ANY 135 operator is carrying external loads on a Helio, or Cessna these days. Maybe in past, and maybe totally outside their certificate, but not under 135. Maybe some operator got external loads approved on their op specs, but if so, they did it under the radar.

Way it happens with some of these guys is they do a "non-revenue" trip with the boat, etc, then bill double for the "real" trip. Course, their insurance is invalid for the external loads trip, but.... As far as the FAA is concerned, in Alaska, as long as you follow their guidlines for external load ops, you are cool. But, that said, I'd be surprised if any 135 outfit has external loads approved on their op spec, unless it's on a deHavilland. But, stranger things have happened.

As I said, the point is that policy on external load operations is all over the radar, depending on where you light. Shouldn't be, but...

MTV

[Jerry Gaston]

Has anyone tried a fold-a -boat or Port-a-boat on a cub. They are the ones that fold flat. I've got a 10 footer that I want to try but am debating whether to fix it to the spreader bars or attach to the float struts. Does anyone have experience with these type of boats?

[mvivion]

Jerry,

I have carried Fold Boats on Cubs, Huskys, Cessna 185s, 206s, etc. Just tie them to the vertical struts and go.

I llike to tie them on bow aft, the reason being that the small end is toward the back, and put a ratcheting cargo strap around it, and the whole boat cannot slide aft.

It's a good idea to clamp the sides together at the stern of the boat if you do this, cause they can open up in flight. Major drag.

If you use good quality ratcheting straps, you can tie these things on easily and tight, so bow forward or stern forward probably makes little difference, but......

I don't like putting stuff on spreader bars that is that long, cause it can cause some turbulence over the tail. Hanging them on the vertical struts works fine.

MTV

[Jerry Gaston]

Roger That !!! That fits with what I thinkl I was told several years ago when i bought it but only now have I got the opportunity to try it. Thanks for confirming that.

[StalledOut]

Mike, why do you tie that to the verticle struts? I have had more loads come loose tied that way than around the spreader bars. I normally put my lumber, boat, whatever down the center of the spreader bars and take one 2 inch ratchet strap around the front and a smaller ratchet strap round the rear spreader bar. I'll tie a rope around the very front of the load so it doesn't try to seperate (especially hauling 30 2x6's). Ropes and straps seem to want to slip down on the verticle struts and loosen the load once they get wet from spray. As long as stuff isn't over 10 foot long it fits down the center just fine. Even 10 foot stuff, is alright, just drags in the water a bit when coming up on step. I don't suffer any control authority or speed penalty with loads down the center but I can sure tell when I have something tied above the float on the strut. To each his own I guess.

[mvivion]

Stalled,

You mentioned before that you always carry boats on the spreader bars. Now, all sorts of things.

What kind of aircraft are you talking about? The Cub on EDO 2000's has diagonal brace wires that preclude carrying most boats on the spreader bars. I suppose a Fold a Boat would fit, but barely.

Unless you've got some sort of floats that have no diagonal brace wires (and there are some out there) boats don't fit well on the spreaders.

I've carried hundreds of external loads on the vertical struts, and never had anything even start to come loose, so I guess our experience differs.

I simply haven't ever had a problem with stuff on the vertical struts, but I've had some interesting experiences with stuff on the spreaders, mostly related to the tail. Also, I've found that with much stuff on the spreaders, on most aircraft, you have to make a pretty flat approach. That doesn't always work well.

Anyway, a big variable in all this is the aircraft type and the floats.

I still like stuff on the vertical struts. Works for me, anyway.

MTV