Originally Posted by Chuck E.
Nothing specific, but you can order a Legend Cub with that engine . . .
You drive a cri cri? Have you seen the one the guy put 2 R/C AMT jet engines on? It cruises 100mph on one engine
Check it out. I always thought they were cool, but now with it being the worlds smallest twin jet, its almost 007 worthy.[/url]
Well I am not a Super Cub nut or anything like that. I own a 1956 PA-18/150 with allot of the bush mods. I also own a 1967 PA-18/160 on Edo 2000 floats and also have wheel gear for it. Like I said I am not a Super Cub nut.
My third plane is a Pitts S1S, it is powered by a Lycon angle valve 360 that is rated at 242 HP at 3100 RPM. It has a empty Wt. of 796Lbs., and a gross Wt. of 1100 Lbs.. It has Sparcraft wings 4 ailerons 20 gallon fuel / 19 useable and fully inverted fuel and oil system. The header tank allows for 3.5 minutes inverted.
I have been flying for 32 years, and have flown allot of different airplanes and gliders, from J-3 to Lear35A. Now if I cant land on a small lake or a bush strip or do acro, its just another airplane.
Been lurking for awhile. A 180 friend of mine (Hi Mike) pointed me
here saying there's more/better technical discussions & answers on
the C-180 here than there is on the 180 forum/site.
Just bought a '54 C-180 last August (had a '54 C-170B before
that). I also have a long-term SNJ-5 project.
Bela P. Havasreti
I have been tossing the idea of a 180 around in my head. I have found several decent ones for less that I can get a good SC. What are most of you 180 guys getting for fuel burn? I realize that the operating expenses will be nearly double of an SC but on a long cross country it would even out. I can still keep the SuperChamp for playing I guess.
Are there any major maintaince issues with an early 180 (53-59) that I should be aware of other than the fuel bladders?
My 180 with a O-520 and a 3 blade burns about 14.5GPH according to the fuel flow meter at 2350/2400.
I have a friend who owns a 1959 Cessna 180 on floats at this time. He decided to put it back on wheels for awhile cuz the insurance was killing him on floats. He doesn't fly it a lot during the year- maybe 50 hours. He is a very proficient tail wheel pilot having owned a J-3 , Supercub, and a Stinson in the past years! He is concerned with his brakes if he puts it back on wheels. If I remember right, it has the old Goodyear wheels and brakes, which in my opinion were almost worthless!! He asked me what brakes he should put on when he gets rid of the Goodyears. He is also concerned with the cost of new Clevelands and if he might be able to go with a used set. Do any of you C-180 or C-185 drivers have any ideas I can relay to him???Any help would be appreciated !! John
Figure 11-13 GPH depending upon how you lean and how bad youOriginally Posted by WWhunter
need to get where you're going. Having previously flown my 170B along
side my buddies' 180s, if they brought the power back to stay with
my 170 (aka slow-poke speed), we ended up taking on the same amount
of gas at our destination (within 1/2 a gallon). Like you say though,
it evens out.... At the 180's normal cruise speed, you're burning more
gas but you get there quicker. I did the math (compared to my 170)
C-170; 100 knots @ 8gph = 16 gallons (@ $4.12/gallon = $65.92) for 2 hours of flight, nmpg = 12.5 nmpg (14 smpg)
C-180; 130 knots @ 12gph = 18.46 gallons (@ $4.12/gallon = $76.06) for 1.54 hours of flight = 10.83 nmpg (12.13 smpg)
The 170 is quite an efficient airplane, but with the 180, it's a nice trade-off
to spend just a skosh more for the trip and not have to worry about
clearing the trees at whatever strip you're trying to get out of, and it's
also nice to know that whatever you can stuff into the 180 and get the
doors closed on, it'll haul it into the air. The 180 also "shines" at altitude
(mine did 162mph @ 22 squared at 6500 feet with 600x6s and wheel
pants on it, don't know how much mounting 8.50s on there will reduce
As far as what to look out for, a lot of the early 180's out there were used
up in the lower 48 before they got sold to Alaska, then they got used
up more up there landing on boulders 'n such, then they got sold
to Canada where they got further used up, and then gomers like me
buy them and import them back into the states to restore them back
to the way they should be (grins). All kidding aside, the guys tell me the
early bladders ('53-'56) tend to hold up better than the later ones (Cessna
changed the rubber composition around 1957). If it has an O-470A,
walk away. The J is OK, but the two bolt exhaust flanges need constant
attention unless you replace them with thicker (1/4"?) flanges.
Other than that, the 180 is an overgrown 170 with a big block up
front and a funny, squared off tail. Other than the constant speed
prop and governer, airframe maintenance (ADs and the like) won't
be that much more/different than, say, a 170. Insurance is a factor
of hull value (among other things) and will be more (my 170B was
around $950/year for $40K hull, my 180 is currently $1,600/year
for $70K hull).
To the other question about brakes, I can't believe anyone is still
driving around on the Goodyear wheels & brakes! If you're friend
doesn't want to spend $1K on a new conversion kit, used stuff
can be found/had. Check eBay, Barnstormers or the aircraft
Bela P. Havasreti
Thanks guys on the 180 info. It is an idea I have been contimplating for the last year or so since it is hard to find a decent SC for a reasonable price. And all I need is something to haul a load in and out of my 1000 ft strip. I have also looked at 170's powered with a 180hp but their prices are nearly the same as a Cessna 180.
I've got a "53" C-180 with the "LITTLE" J engine. I love it. I'm amazed at its performance every time I fly it. MT weight with Gar-Aero 29" tires is 1497#. That's only a couple hundred lbs heavier than a lot of Cubs.
The "A" engine is not a bad engine if you take care of it. Get an early 53-54 C-180 and don't add a bunch of extra crap to it. Keep it light. You will be amazed at how it will perform. If I had to sell a plane, it would be a Cub not the 180.
Buy a 180, IF, you learn to fly it, you won't be sorry.
I think you got the name wrong unless they got a new partner.
Duwee, Cheetum and How Esq.
Well, since no one chimed in with a list of what to look for, here's a few things to check. There are many more potential issues, and your mileage may vary on those, too. By-the-way.....O-470 A's and J's are not very different and both need good management to not burn up cylinders.
Aileron cables worn out at outboard-most pulley right before the belcrank
Also worn out at the three little pulleys in the middle of the rear spar carry-through. (Old and new a/c that haven't had new cables in 5 years and don't use external gust locks WILL!! be worn in these areas.)
Early 180's...corrosion in wings between the skin laps, also between spars and spar caps
smoking rivets at the 'angled rib'(just outboard of the fuel bladder bay)
Corrosion around the battery area and also the steel doubler in some 180's aft floor edge.
Crushed door frames
Cracked-out door hinges...both on the door and also on the fuselage
Cracked cowling around oil access door, etc.
Loose gear box rivets
Sheared rivets just aft of stabilizer aft hinge bracket
Unmaintained trim jacks
Sheared trim wheel roll pin
Flap handle pivot wallowed out
Control 'y' pivot wallowed out
Flap skin trailing edges cracked
Flap tracks worn out
Flap support arms worn out
Aileron counterweight rivets sheared
Loose rivets on aileron where pushrod-end bolts on
Worn out ruddder pedals
Brittle old exhaust systems
Main gear 'sprung'
Tail spring mount areas, rubbers, shafts, etc.
I could type for another twenty minutes all the stuff that shows up on these airplanes. Many of the listed items will show up on most of the older ones. Many of the older ones will have 75% of the items I listed. What I listed should keep you busy looking for awhile.
Sorry for the suprise if you're surpised. I work on these things and I find this stuff. Maybe each item will not ground the a/c, but they will all add up to make you choose wisely how much to offer when purchasing.
Good Luck. DAVE
Thanks!! That was the info I was looking for. But with all these old airplanes there is a lot to check...age takes its toll.
We saw a fair share of 170's fall out of the sky these past two or three years killing several people, granted it was all pilot error, but maybe that funny square tail on a 180 makes a 170 a better airplane. I agree that a 170 is a fine airplane, but I sure have seen allot of them crash when loaded up.
I have a question. I have been studying the 180/185 market lately. I have been interested and am puzzled by some of the extremely high asking prices for low time planes. I have owned supercubs from the cheap ones to the expensive one's. I know as well as you that what some are asking for these supercubs are out of line and priced too high.
I guess what I am trying to ask is what are good 180/185's selling for. Reletively low time and average equipment. What I see that is relatively low time are IFR machines decked out better than most Barrons and A-36's. I for one think cubs that require vacuum systems and lots of equipment are for one not what they were intended to be and as a result very over priced. Is this some of the same trend that I am seeing in the 180/185 market?
The market is very soft right now and some good deals can be had. A good 180 can be had for less than 100M and a good 185 for less then 140M. Reasonable TT time and 1/4 time motors. A low time <1500TT and <150smoh in either will fetch another 40+. People know the market is soft and are trying hard not to give away their skywagons. There are several right now with new motors and props that are offered for less then what they should. I think it is a great time to buy.
I'd just say find the plane you want, do a little value research on it, and make an offer. Remember no matter how pretty it is a clever AI can spot 10K worth of stuff that needs to be fixed in about 11 minutes. Or in my case, 20K....
From this end I click the CC Ad and defaults to an error. But you already know that. ?
Normally when I post something as controversial as I did above (ragging on 170's) it would start a string of replies.... What's happening? No one reading this?
I read it 26H. I have also looked at the 170's but unless it is powered by a 180hp it isn't worth my time. I already have an older 172 so performance is about the same.
As for the price on 180's...I have seen several nice one's in the 65-85k range. That is why I have been looking. A decent SC is the same price range.
Bill-26H, If anyone thought you knew what you were talking about on the 170 thing, they'd have given you a ration of abuse. Take the silence for what it is.
Seriously, consider the possibility that 170 owners are stone-stepping up from a lesser a/c to (hopefully) a 180/5 and might be low-time, and with no regard for how much weight you can stuff in the 170, even if you don't have the HP to keep it flying. Then they go and get slow, and...........
It's not so hard to imagine.
I agree, the 170 is no 180, when loaded, but can do great when light.
Well course you are correct again, David. But recall I did say something about "pilot error" and that the 170 is a fine aircraft, so can we both be wrong?
That's because there's nothing untrue about what you said.Originally Posted by N5126H
I agree with David (if you keep a 170 light, you can have some fun with
it). FWIW, I used the 170B as a stepping stone to get what I wanted in
the 1st place (an early 180).
With the 170, I had to watch the weight/load carefully (usually just
me with the back seat out and 1/2 fuel or less). At that weight, I
could pretty much go wherever my 180 buds went, but I still had
to watch the heat (density altitude).
As far as a 180hp (or Cont. 210hp) 170 goes, someone would have
to give you a decent 170B airframe for free to make the conversion
worthwhile. If you paid market value for a decent 170B and then
paid for the engine conversion, you'd have more in the 170 then
you would a decent, early C-180.
That is exactly what I am seeing with the 170's. And finding a good one with the 180hp already installed the price on them is in the same league as a C-180. And of course the C-180 will haul more.
What would you guy's say was the most UN-desirable feature of a potential 180/185 on the resale market.
All I know about them is I have a friend who had a nice 180 late model,and was selling it and run in to trouble. The plane's resale value had been lowered due to the repairs that were done to the gear leg box's after a mishap. I sure wish I could have bought it though it was quite nice.
Beauty is more than skin deep.
I would add to Dave's rather comprehensive list that you should have someone who is truly a Cessna tailwheel expert maintenance wise, to take a VERY close look at the gearbox, including as Dave mentioned, loose rivets. We've also found rivets with the heads sheared off, and some really scabbed up repairs of gearboxes.
Don't fear a properly done repair. The day and age that an old airplane would lose value because of damage history is probably behind us. Lots of airplanes have damage history. The key is how that damage was repaired, and if it was done wrong, and it was in the gearbox, you don't want that airplane, no matter how pretty it was.
I agree that the 170, even with the 180 hp engine is valued at nearly what a 180 costs. The 180's have the reputation, I think of having been worked harder, and used harder, but that's not necessarily true.
I've seen these airplanes bought that had to have nearly all the belly skins replaced AFTER the gearbox was almost completely replaced. You don't want to have to pay for that.
My 170 does just fine, and will probably get in and out of anything any 180 will. It has a 180 on it. But, I'm a lot slower than a 180, and can't carry as much stuff. I've learned to live with it though .
It used to be you could buy a well used early 182 and convert it to a 180. THen you KNOW what the gearbox is like. Now, however, even the early 182's have gone up in price except for the 9,000 hour skydiver machines.
And of course, labor to install the gearbox is sky high now as well, unless you can do it yourself.
I would add (from experience) that you are lot more likely to have corrosion from mouse urine than you are a bad repair. Mice just love these old cessnas. The guy working on my 180 has sent me tons of pictures of dried up mice and rats he has pulled out of the plane.
I would like to see a picture of a ton of dead mice and rats....
how about it?
Looking for clean light earlier 180. Any tips?? Where are those deals in Alaska N5126H. Steve, You got any leads left from when you were looking?? pm me if you like
Here ya go, mouseyness and airplane gutting in all its glory.
There is a very nice 1954 180 in the hanger next to me that is going to go up for sale. It has 115 SMOH on o-470R and prop.
PM me if you you like the owners info.
stancil has a couple of very clean ones at skywagons.com.....
Like all things about the Cubs, but spend most all my time building Patrols, should be able to find the yahoo-message site under Patrol with lots of my photos. I also build l tail wheels for cub clones and many other T-draggers. Has been great fun.
Most notable on the Patrol is the room and metal 1 strut wing, as well as a 140 mph cruise.. Same frame/gear can also be made to fit into the LSA catagory with lower HP and watching your weight.
Scott- Iron Design L.L.C.
13631 Vail Ave
Clarksville, Iowa 50619
For someone lusting after a SC, but unable or unwilling to pay the admittance fee and the ongoing fuel costs: I believe the Rans S-7S is a great bang for the buck. Of course I own one, actually my second one.* I've taken many SC pilots for rides, they feel right at home from the getgo. Fuel burn for me, solo, and just putting around the local mountains can be easily gotten below 2 GPH (1.8 gph @ 55 to 60 mph indicated @ 6500 asl). Getting somewhere faster (85 indicated @ 10,500' asl) loaded with camping gear and the folding mt. bike gets it up to about 4 gph. *
The company is as solid as it gets in the kitplane world, right up there or equal to Vans in owner/builder satisfaction, they will be there tomorrow.*
* One huge benefit to the breed that is often not mentioned or considered is the noise level. While typical inside of any light fabric plane, the perceived noise from the ground , especially with a 3 blade prop, is unreal. I recently had 2 different neighbors, newbies some 1 mile north of my place, express shock when they stopped by and saw the hangered plane. I was also amazed, but they stated they had no idea I was flying out of my 40 acre property (and flying over and by their houses) just right down the road. "I'm the kind of guy who notices stuff like that", one stated.* Point is a properly muffled AND operated 912 Rotax aircraft is the quietest thing out there, and frankly allows you to do more unusual type flying with no negative feedback or attention .
I only state this because I'd hate to think someone would pass up the whole SC type flying experience due to cost. I have around 45K in my NEW bird, like many I have not totaled everything up, don't REALLY want to know!
It's been a while since I did a post. But I find this to be a VERY interesting topic. Altho I love flying my Super J-3, it is just a part of my love of flying. I also fly a tricked out 1956 Cessna 172 Straight Tail with 180 conversion, constant speed prop, Horton STOL kit and big tires. For water flying I have a Wag Aero 2+2 with 180 Lycon and 2200 Amphibs. And my most recent indulgment was to buy a 1933 Stinson SR JR on 4000 Edos powered by a Wright 985. It gets off the water in 8 seconds. I also have wheels and skis and keep it in Homer, Ak where I will play with it next summer and thereafter. Its not that I'm addicted or anything, but I have 8 others most of which are for sale. Wife says I can buy a Lodge in Alaska if I sell all eight. Any takers??? Steve J
Where did your SRJR come from? Very cool a/c. Kinda like a giant Cub with 450 HP?