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And the Sherpa

KenyaCub

Registered User
Kenya, Africa
So what about the Sherpa?
Does anyone have any direct experience with this plane?
From what I hear it is something very serious as far as how it is built and what it can take but they don't seem to get the production moving.
Anyone flown it?
Anyone know what Glen's and Byron's plans are for production? They havn't seemed to progress much on this and I heard the whole russian production thing didn't work out because the quality was too low.
Is this thing ever going to see the light, it looks like it could be the only big plane out there that could go where a cub goes?
 
Saw Byron and a Sherpa doing a photo shoot on a river bar this past summer a few week before oskkosh. It had a Lyc. tsio720 in it that they were playing with for power, trying to adjust for the lag time as they added power for their approaches.
Byron said the same thing as you about the poor Russian quality-also that they were unreliable in keeping the production moving or completing much of anything for that matter.
Don't know anything else, but there are others on this site who should!
 
I'd love to hear about it.

I have a customer that at one point wanted one built. I told him yes, as soon as his current project made it out of the hangar.

The Russian production of the kit parts seemed to be falling apart about the same time frame as when I was ready to look into gettting a kit headed this way.

This is a COOOOLLL airplane. I hope they can make it go.
 
Seems like the outfits that are having their kits built in Poland and other eastern European countries are having much better success with quality and production than they are with stuff in Russia. My understanding is that was where a lot of the production occurred for "Russian" military equipment prior to the fall of the Soviet Union.

I've seen some really pretty nice work out of Poland. Don't know how reliable they are, though.

MTV
 
If Poland's aviation industry is anything like their electronics industry, then it is great. We have stuff designed and built over there, and it is always top-notch.
 
Dig,

For the same reason every piece of clothing that you purchase today is made in Sri Lanka or Viet Nam, or.....

Cheap labor and a trained labor force. No insurance benefits, no unions, and no litigation if a worker trips over one of those electrical cords. Just have two others haul his or her sorry carcass out back and put it on the pile with the others.

MTV
 
MTV,

I'd also add culture (work ethic etc.) and attitude toward manufacturing jobs to the list of reasons. Having worked technical support for assembly areas in the US, Taiwan, Korea and Malaysis only in the US did I have problems with active sabotage of the assembly equipment. Mostly due to boredom and the fact they got an extra smoke break while the line was repaired. Even though the sabotage (sticking screw driver in gears, torquing sensors out of alignment etc.) was observed and reported no discipline was carried out due to fear of..... litigation and unions.

Have also watched workers in China dip circuit boards into an acid bath held between their legs. Instead of automated equipment doing it as is required in the US. Lowers Chinas cost significantly.

Dan
 
Maybe some of you guys that know the Sherpa crew can get them to come aboard here. God knows that Byron will have forgotten more about PA-18's than some of us will ever know.

He'd be a great asset to this community. Let's not let this thread end up a bitch about mass-production in the far-East.

Diggler, did you have any thing in mind with that question? stirring the pot?
 
Let me help.

And increasingly, education. Our government-run school system is abysmal, churning out high school "graduates" that can't read or even do basic arithmetic, while those in many other countries, even some which were recently third world, churn out people that can do calculus and engineering. I think it's gotten much worse over the past 20 years. I'm appalled when I have to deal with young people who can't even calculate how much change I should get back when I'm at the store. How are they going to get jobs in a high-tech economy?

John Stossel recently did a special on this on ABC. Anyone who sends their kids to public school is ruining their lives, IMO. And instead of being encouraged towards careers that will help them be successful and keep our country competitive, they are encouraged to emulate Britney Spears.

The way to maintain the high standard of living in this country is to have a workforce capable of creating and engineering innovative products, whether it be biotech, medical, high tech, financial, etc better than anyone else in the world. And have a low tax and limited regulatory environment that encourages capital to flow to this workforce.
 
Diggler,

A few years ago the pay for an Engineer in a high-tech field in the US was $40/hr unloaded. An engineer doing the same thing in Taiwan was $14-$18. Pay for a high-tech assembly worker was $18 in the US vs. $8 to $10/hr in Taiwan, even less in China. Due to economic issues in Russia you could get an Engineer with a PhD for $40 to $50k/yr. That same Engineer could come to the US and make $120 to $150k/yr. Doesn't take very many hours with that disparity to make quite a difference in overall cost. So, it's probably not throwing away $50.00 to have it made in Russia, it's probably cutting the cost in half even with shipping. They also don't have to worry about US Legal Liability issues and the associated costs so add those savings in.

Add to this the issues that Christina brings up with our education system failing the kids and it's really difficult for US manufacturers to compete.
 
DPearce,
I really think the cost savings are fleeting in outsourcing engineering to other countries. Remember when the average Japanese engineer during the 1970s cost much less than a U.S. one? Now they make more.

My company has engineering sites in multiple countries, not just the U.S. A few years ago the average Polish engineer made about 1/3 that of an American. Now it is 1/2. In a couple of years it will probably be 3/4. Then the same amount.

Meanwhile, it is very hard to develop products in multiple locales around the world because of language and especially time differences. I still think that American engineers can hold their own and innovate with the best.... they are not as rigidly programmed to take the creativity out of them like some of the other places in the world. But I just hope that with our abyssmal school system we can still churn out these knowledge workers at a rate to still be competitive.

BTW, at some places in SE Asia salaries for knowledge workers are skyrocketing... I can cite cases where people left after just a year because they are being stolen by other companies offering 40% pay raises (*each year*) raiding each others workforces! Their salaries will soon catch up with American's as well!
 
For sure someone on this site KNOWS what the inside info is at Sherpa. ...............
 
Christina,

Yep, in the 70's it was the Japanese before it became to expensive. In the 80's it was Singapore and Malaysia (until their president said he only wanted the high paying engineering jobs not manufacturing), in the 90's and currently it's moved to India. Where will it go from there?

I completely agree that outsourcing of knowledge worker from the US doesn't pay in the near or long term. Having had my arm twisted by managment to outsource development of both hardware and software development (in different projects) to India, Taiwan and Korea I was able to watch the outsourcing not pay in multiple ways. Luckly, I was also in a position to be able to stop it from continuing by showing it wasn't paying.

But from experience, the oursourcing of assembly/manufacturing does. Even with a total automated production line at a major electronics manufacturer in the US we could not be cost competitive with manufacturing in (you name your location in Asia). Their culture (legal, environmental and social) had them producing the same product to our quality specs at significantly higher margins. Having watched the way those assembly workers are treated in those countries I can't say the end justifies the means though.

I also whole-heartedly agree with your assessment that American innovation ability is at the top of the heap. How long we can stay there is another issue with not only the educational system in it's current disfunctional state but the legal system that prevents some innovation from making it to market due to fear of liability. But, the statement (in the press) that other countries are far surpassing the US in education is not completely accurate either. Many of the so-called Sr. Engineers in some of the countries I've worked in would not pass the interview for a new college hire in any company I've worked for.
 
Good Job, KenyaCub!!

I can see a group of guys in AK interested in spooling up and jigging up to run a few Sherpa Frames outta here.

I can see a few guys getting jigged up for wings, gear, engine mounts, tailfeathers, seat frames.

Hey, this isn't rocket science!

....Oh, maybe that's the problem, the Russian's thought it was rocket science..................disposable rockets. :(
 
Keep at it Kenyacub, maybe someone will get the hint. But I doubt it. It seems when someone gets the ball rolling on this forum you can never tell which way the topic will head.

By the way I did look at, and get liturature, while at Oshkosh on the Sherpa but unfortunately I don't have it here with me or I would have responded to your question.
 
Yep Diggler it's possible. How many is Cirrus up to now 2 or 3000? The problem is making a buck at it. They have their labor from start to finish down to under 1800 man hours per airplane and I don't think have made dollar one yet. Most of their layups are done by a inexpensive rural labor force, so we're not talking $40-$50 hr labor either.

Frank
 
OK, I will take the bait.

I worked for Byron at Sherpa for many years. It was fun and exciting, but I needed an engineering job with better pay to support my personal flying habits and family so I left and started my own engineering firm. I am still in close contact with Byron, I have known him for nearly 30 years and I turn 40 this month. His vision is failing him but his love for bush aircraft is still strong and he is actively working on a new wing design for the Sherpa. Not that the old wing was bad, he wants the ultimate bush plane. He is just completing the new wing construction and it is unbelievable. The flaps are almost as big as my Super Cub wings (I am exaggerating a little) , if it works as planned, I don't think there will be an aircraft around that will match it's STOL performance. He has a lot of flight testing to do and he claims he wants me to help him out.

I have flown the Sherpa on both floats and wheels. I have a couple hundred hours flying the prototypes. They are a delight to fly, they are basically a big Super Cub. The prototypes fly slower than a Super Cub and land shorter. You can land with the brakes nearly locked and the tail will not come up on you. I can get out shorter in my 180 Super Cub, but if I load my 180 Cub up to gross weight and the Sherpa up to gross weight, I think the Sherpa might beat me. I am only talking about the (2) 5 place prototypes, I do not have much experience with the 8 place turbo model so I can't tell you much about it's performance.

As far as Sherpa's in production, don't hold your breath! Byron is an experimenter/perfectionist and enjoys getting there more than being there. He is never satisfied with his aircraft, they can always be improved upon. It's that attitude that produces exceptional flying machines, but to go into production, the design has to be frozen or close to it. I don't really know much about the Russian deal other than it is not going as planned. Byron has a business partner Glen Gordon, I think Glen is the person to talk to about production. One thing to keep in mind, both Byron and Glen are in their golden retirement years and I don't know what will happen when they retire from it all.

Doug Keller
 
I'm gonna be bad, and deviate from the topic again, cuz Christina's comments about our school system really hit a raw nerve.

I'm a mechanical engineering graduate who earned his teaching certificate and went to work in the public schools to teach math and science at the age of 57. I did so exactly because of what Christina was saying - the perception of low standards in public education. Plus a huge desire to put a spark for science and technology in some kids' phyche's.

I'm frustrated as can be in some ways, because I deeply believe in the idea of high standards. My students would tell you that VERY loudly - around 1/2 of my 9th grade science students failed the semester that ended last week. 57% of students in my high school failed at least one class last semester. That's horrid. But here's the problem as I see it.

1. Overemphasis on 'feeling good'. That's a societal/cultural bias that public schools reflect, not create. That emphasis biases against struggling with academics or struggling to compete in business as an employee.

2. We are living in perhaps the wealthiest period of any society in history. The poorest of the poor have a fine safety net to not go hungry. Check out http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ and pay special attention to gross domestic product per capita. The U.S. is FAR ahead of everybody else. Such wonderful economic success absolutely does not breed strong desire to improve! Life is good, and as one consequence, education is not highly valued as a means to elevate one's standard of living.

Many of my students are from low-income homes. They do not see education as a path to improving their lot. They are accustomed to giving up, remaining hopeless for a better life through education, in part because their life really isn't all that bad from a fundamental perspective.

Last year I taught "honors physics". I was appalled that many of my students couldn't do freshman algebra. Students sitting beside them were students who had already completed or were currently enrolled in calculus. Both groups were cheated. Neither received the physics instruction that would be most beneficial to their educational status and goals. The students were together due to the bias in educational circles of "inclusion". Put everybody together rather than suggest that ability or readiness should be a factor in class placement. That arises from problem #1 above.

So, Christina - I agree with you, but I disagree with the implication that the schools are to blame. Our public schools are guided very much by local school boards, and reflect closely the values of their community. Of course there are external mandates, such as the Federal No Child Left Behind Act, that are intended to raise standards, but the bottom line in my classroom come Monday morning, is the WILLINGNESS of my students to engage. That level of willingness will be largely influenced by parents and community.

The COMMUNITY must highly value education before public education can take wing. Go to to your school board meetings. I can tell you, as a former school board member, you will be carefully listened to. Christina, PLEASE go tell the school board what you have said here. And have some ideas for policy-level improvement. One idea is "tracking", segregation of students by ability and readiness. A very non-politically-correct concept I push at every opportunity. Come up with different words. The word "Tracking", will close everybody's ears and minds. Try something like "developmentally aligned" or some such jibberish.

Ok, sorry for the hijack. But just a little. This is a HUGELY important topic.

Now, like I was saying, about the Sherpa - - that aircraft has taken, and is continuing to take a giant dedication to improvement. If our society shared the determination and persistence of Byron and his colleagues, this country would look different.

Whew!
 
Good post Gordon, I feel like school teacher is a very noble calling and they are not often appreciated. (not to mention underpaid)Im lucky, my 17 yr. old is straight A's almost bored in H.S. there is a lot of rude allowable behavior in public schools. A lot of this is bad or no parenting, not to mention video game mentality. Our gov. is allowing in my opinion to dumb down. We can change it, young people will follow their lead, we just need to lead and as a whole quit being soft on education. I recently had a parent /teacher conference and my wife was running interference between me and the teacher as she had shown some type of bootleg film to my son's class that disputes our America landing on the moon. That made me mad. I stayed politcally correct, something Im not used to doing.The statement you made about the "comfort" rings true, if we have young people seeing that they can just get by,they might just choose that.Kevin
 
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