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Thread: Drooping Ailerons

  1. #1

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    Drooping Ailerons

    I have been looking at the drooping aileron kit, looks like a cheaper route than extending my flaps, I looked at a exp. SC about 4 or 5 years ago before I bought the SC I have now, it had A Full slat mounted to the leading edge, and had the ability to droop the ailerons I think like 20 degrees or so. but you had the option to droop, or not to droop.

    I rarely have to land with much of a crosswind, mostly on roads, or fields right into the wind, and I think the option would be awesome.

    The guys name I think was Lex Birgduff, I haven't heard anything about his planes for a long time. anybody have any experience with them certified or experimental.

    Thanks Matt

  2. #2

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    Ailerons

    Matt, Get in touch with Wayne Mackey in Miles City Mt. I think Wayne built that system for Les. Wayne's # is 406-232-1370 evenings is best.
    Dave

  3. #3
    Student Pilot's Avatar
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    Brewers droop

    Never been impressed with drooping ailerons, you always seem to run out of aileron on a steep/steep turn approach. Awfull roll response in a crosswind, and when fitted with Robinson stol gear in Agwagons (I found the same effect in 206's) the one without seemed to land just as slow and had a lot more aileron authority/roll rate and were easier to control in a strong crosswind.

    Beavers are much the same, on a very steep approach you couldn't go past about 30 degrees of flap until you rolled straight otherwise if a gust increased your bank angle (50degrees+) you were flat out getting back.

    Usually for better (slower) landing speeds, the lighter the Aircraft, the slower the landing. You can chase these things round in circles.......bigger engine, bigger wings, bigger tyres, heavier legs, bigger fuel tanks (because you use more fuel with the bigger engine), bigger panel, more instruments, until you have a machine 300lbs+ heavier and lands longer because faster stall speed and more weight to pull up. Then you have to have slats/drooped ailerons/vortex jiggers and a sandbar sticker to land faster than an old clunker 290 SC with a basic cover job, airspeed, compass and combination gauge.

    Waddya rekon?

  4. #4
    JP's Avatar
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    You can always use the poor person flaps, which is what we eleven and three drivers do. When we rig the ailerons we rig both down about a degree and a half. On takeoff they act as mini flaps and then at cruise the pressure of lift pretty much flattens them out anyway....

    Or so it seems.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
    www.bft-int.com/aviation.html

  5. #5
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Jerry Burr wrote about the CC drooping ailerons on another thread:
    A piece of flat stock attatched to the top of the false spar will improve the function of the ailerons at low speed. I don't remember for sure, but I think it was 1 1/4" beyond the rear of the top of the false spar. This is a mandatory addition if you have droop ailerons. If the Top Cub kit would of had them I believe it would have had wider acceptance. As it was the ailerons were very weak. Jerry.
    http://www.supercub.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8913
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  6. #6
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    We've had lots of discussion on the aileron droop thing around here.

    According to those who play with them alot, they work great.

    Student Pilot made some good points......crosswind issues, diminishing returns of a larger engine, more fuel, etc.

    I'd challenge a couple of things he said too, no offense Student Pilot.

    1. Robertson STOL equipped 206's and 185's definitely land slower than stock ones. I'm surprised that would be in doubt. I don't find it so.

    2. 'Robertson', not 'Robinson'. If your a/c is Robinson-equipped, it'll land at zero ground-speed, in zero wind!

    3. slats, drooped ailerons, vortex "jiggers" are effective. Yes, they do change the charachter of a Cub, except maybe the VG's, those things are worth their weight.

    No offense Student Pilot. My opinion is different than yours on this. DAVE

  7. #7
    Student Pilot's Avatar
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    No offence taken Dave. You an agent for Robertson stol by the sound of things Dave? just kidding.

    On AG work your normally landing empty and the only percieved difference I could tell was heavier ailerons, the landings speeds seemed the same. There might be a more pronounced difference with a heavily loaded Aircraft landing, I don't know. The RS gear made a slight difference in a 206 that I flew a long time ago, the only thing I remember was how heavy the controls were with flap.

  8. #8
    mvivion's Avatar
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    I'm with Dave on the RSTOL kits on Cessnas. They definitely make a difference in STALL speed. You can land at 100 kts if you like, it's stall speed that the STOL kits affect. Nonetheless, 206's ALL have heavy ailerons. The RSTOL kit makes no difference there, either. Compare them with and without flaps down, all same same.

    I don't like the droop ailerons on a Cub. They droop too much, in my opinon. If they had the option of droop with flaps or don't, they might be pretty good. As is, they're expensive, complex and they really don't help all that much. Ask around and see how many folks have them.

    That is one of the few STOL kits I've seen where a couple people I know have had them removed, and restored to stock. That should tell you something.

    MTV

  9. #9
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Student Pilot, no, not a R-Stol dealer.

    M Wittler, did you talk to Wayne yet?

    Cool stuff, huh?

    With the way that kit can be incrementally adjusted for more or less or zero mix, it's way cool.It'd be nice if the Robertson had the option.

    Yeah, Mike, I remember when they took the CC TopCub STOL kits off.

    With mix always on, it would be scary!!

    Letting the cat out of the bag......there's plenty of room under the floor aft of the doorpposts on a 180/185 to have a mixer/cable-arrangement under the floor there. I've been dreaming 'straight-tail-182/Taildragger/different engine/drooped trailing edge/larger control surfaces/slat/EXPerimental'.

    Now nobody steal my idea!!

  10. #10
    Student Pilot's Avatar
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    So how do drooped ailerons make a difference on Cessna's but not on Cubs? You would think wings of similar section would have the same result from drooped ailerons? Maybe a NIMBY thing?

    I found when you pulled flap on (with RS gear) the ailerons tightend up and had a remote feel on both 188 Agtruck and 206, maybe bad installation?

  11. #11

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    Drooping ailerons

    has anyone out there tried drooping the ailerons on slotted wings?

  12. #12
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Trailing edge droop works on Both, S P.

    MtSprayer, yes! and it's all good for lowering the MCA.

    SP, I wouldn't necessarily say bad installation. But realizing the ailerons are now flaperons with the flaps applied on an RSTOL, there's obviously a different feel, and yes, it'd be nice if you could have trailing edge droop AND great aileron authority.

    That said, when you droop the ailerons, the "down" aileron cable will go tighter, and the "up" cable will get slacker. If the rigging isn't right to spec. or even at the top of the spec. tension tolerance, 'remote' would be a good descriptor of roll feel.

    Hey, everything's a tradeoff, that's why not EVERY Cessna has an RSTOL.

  13. #13
    supilot's Avatar
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    cool

  14. #14

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    mtsprayer,
    Flaperons + slotted regular (not extended) wings seems to me like the perfect recipe for disaster.

  15. #15
    Student Pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins
    I'd challenge a couple of things he said too, no offense Student Pilot.

    2. 'Robertson', not 'Robinson'. If your a/c is Robinson-equipped, it'll land at zero ground-speed, in zero wind!

    No offense Student Pilot. My opinion is different than yours on this. DAVE
    Once the word gets out there'll be Jetrangers for sale everywhere, why have a three quarters of a million dollar machine when an old 206 Cessna will do the same thing.

  16. #16
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    206?

  17. #17

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    Robertson put a STOL kit on for a customer of a buddy, and I got to do the delivery and factory school. That 185 got a whole new personality - it could stop practically in its own length in a ten knot breeze. We were all amazed!

  18. #18
    pzinck's Avatar
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    All of my stuff droops,except the old lady. I love the robertson on the 185 and i like it on the cub. The planes definitely fly differently,but they work good. These type mods get a bad rap from a guy that is familiar flying a plane without these mods and then jumps into one with drooping ailerons and it doesnt do what he thinks it's supposed to. FIrst off ,when i got the cub drooping ailerons i landed longer for several hours,the reason being i was flying it the same as i did before the mod.After several hours of slow flight and landing practice i started liking it. To make this mod work you really need to keep your airspeed extremely slow,your nose up and adjust sink rate with power.If properly flown people on the ground will wonder how you are flying that slow.Old time cub pilots have chewed me out for flying that slow on approach,claiming i am going to kill myself.Little do they realize i have drooping ailerons and the plane is quite stable.I think vg's are a must with this mod .I also have pretty good aileron authorith,but also have extended ailerons.A very high time ,multiple cub owner (30 i beleive over the years) has stated after flying my plane a few hours that my cub is more stable at 40 mph than any other he has flown at 60 mph.My cub is an A model,and dont know if that helps much.You must admit that the A's are pretty though. I dont always land my plane real slow,but to make this mod work you need to.I seem to land longer if i am out of practice or not really pushing the slow approach than before the mod.I really beleive to make an honest comparison someone would need to put in some hours before making a descision.Lots of guys run down the robertson stol and say they are dangerous in crosswinds,i dont find this to be true,one just need to know the plane and it's capabilities. On approach with the cub if the airspeed is reading above zero the landings will be longer.
    Remember , the light at the end of the tunnel may be you .O wind of heaven by thy might save all who dare the eagles flight, and keep them by thy watchful care from every peril in the air.

  19. #19
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Pzinck, do you have anything to say about use of the rudder with all that trailing edge drooping?

    Wayne M. talked a bit about ruddering the thing around in "flat turns". Seems like an odd technique, but I 'spose you use what you got to make the thing do what you want.

    Anything about that you'd like to add?

    Thanks ahead of time!

    DAVE

  20. #20
    Student Pilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pzinck
    .I really beleive to make an honest comparison someone would need to put in some hours before making a descision.Lots of guys run down the robertson stol and say they are dangerous in crosswinds,i dont find this to be true,one just need to know the plane and it's capabilities. On approach with the cub if the airspeed is reading above zero the landings will be longer.
    What sort of time would you say to make a judgement? I've put more than a few hours in RS equiped Aircraft working, that's flying because that's the job (all day, everyday) not just for a fishing trip or a bit of a fly around on a Sunday afternoon. I found the RS equipped Aircraft lacking in a strong crosswind out of short strips. With one company I worked there were 2 Aircraft to work, one with RS, one without.The Aircraft without RS was the way to go in difficult conditions. I've spent the last 25 years taking off and landing on short strips for a living, I have a bit of an idea how to slow an Aircraft up with or without RS gear.

    What are the ACTUAL figures for stalling speeds before and after of a Robertson Stol equiped Aircraft? a 185 and a 206 to give us a good comparison. Some tested ACTUAL figures not I've flown one that landed backwards and had 3 ton on sort of stuff.

  21. #21

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    I have Wayne's droopy ailerons on my experimental cub and like them very much. Yes, it does fly different, especially in a very slow turn, but you get used to it. At first I was afraid that it would let go in a turn when I was low and slow with lots of power applied, but after flying it about 400 hours now, it has never surprized me. Don't get me wrong, it will let go with enough AOA, but it is amazing how much it takes. I do land & take off shorter with the ailerons. When it is really gusty I sometime don't use them and that is when I really notice the difference, it feels like and the GPS confirms that I am really moving fast compared to when they are applied. One of the best things about the droopy ailerons, in my opinion is the added drag, it is easier to hit your spot with all that trailing edge hanging down. You have to fly with more power, once you get over the spot you want to land, just chop the power and your planted on the ground. If you are the type of pilot the cuts the power high and glides down and flares, this probably is not the mod for you. I don't think I would like the mod if I didn't have the ability to disconnect the droopy ailerons from the flaps, that is what makes Wayne's system so nice. One other note than seems to be missed a lot, trailing edge devices increase your maximum coefficient of lift without increasing your AOA, and in some cases if not most they lower your stall AOA. Leading edge devices increase your maximum coefficient of lift by postponing the stall to a higher angle AOA. I don't know about you guys, but I like to see were I am going (flat deck angle).

    Doug

  22. #22

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    A Robertson stol 206 is an impressive airplane... Does it fly like a standard 206... no.... is it heavy in the aileron and a little more difficult to deal with in a crosswind.. yes... And no... it doesn't necessarily fly like a cub... I have flown all kinds of airplanes from my Pa-18 to the 747-400 and I can't remember 2 airplanes that flew the same... not even if they were the same model... My point is... You fly the airplane the way it wants or needs to be flown... .... just my opinion....

  23. #23
    pzinck's Avatar
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    Dave, i think because the aileron is a little less effective with droops wayne may have been reffering to using the rudder to make adjustments with rudder that usually you would use the ailerons and rudder together.With all that drag and less responsiveness i sometimes skid the plane around with the rudder. When we first installed this my buddy (dan Dufault) Was flying the plane real slow downwind he kicked the rudder and the plane did a 180 in about 15 feet turning into the wind.A bunch of us were watching at twitchells and were amazed.I have tried this and it is cool turning in such at a short span.I dont know how tight the turn is(cause i am in the plane) but it feels like you pivot around in one length of the wingspan. Student pilot, i dont know of the time you would need to make an honest judgement.Someguys maybe 2 hours and someguys with hightime would never be able to make a good judgement. I know lots of guys with all types of liscences and high time think my field is suicide.Other guys and myself have flown skyhawks in and out.My field is relatively long compared to bush strips but it seems to scare some. A few years ago i popped into a beach on a long long lake.A retired air force pilot and airline guy came over and asked to go up.I took off and then landed.I said do you want to try it.He had told me of the 2000 hours he had on floats so i just sat back.After a mile or so he said i cant seem to get her off like you.Once i told him to put in the carb heat,lift the water rudders and put the flaps to one notch from full flap he did pretty good.
    Remember , the light at the end of the tunnel may be you .O wind of heaven by thy might save all who dare the eagles flight, and keep them by thy watchful care from every peril in the air.

  24. #24

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    I talked to Wayne Mackey the other night on the phone. There is no doubt if I had an experimental SC, I would defnitley add the drooping ailerons and his leading edge slat it flips up and down to help cruise, and really holds that airflow on those ailerons at low airspeed, probably alot better than VG's But the cool thing about his ailerons, is you have the option to droop them. It's just a decision like anything, when to fly,when not to. When to wheel land, or three point. When to use flaps and which notch. It's all About decisions, And I like having useable tools to help the plane fly at it's safest ability. Because It's usually carrying valuabe cargo, me or my family!!! It's just a bummer that the CC kit is not optionable, which in the wrong hands, and the wrong conditions WOULD be deadly no doubt!!!!! Thanks Matt

    Ps The bright side you experimental guys have another good tool that us certified guys can't get ( if it is used correctly).

  25. #25
    Jerry Burr's Avatar
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    VG's

    Hi Wittler. You would be missing the boat big time if you didn't put the Micro VG's behind the Slat. Wayne didn't mention it but he knows how well it works. It flat supercharges the little buggers. Jerry.

  26. #26
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Jerry, 'spose the same ("supercharges the buggers") could be said for Dakota's slotted wing?

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