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Thread: cub fuel system

  1. #1

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    cub fuel system

    We are converting a j-3 to the PA-11 configuration with Dodges STCs, We are installing the PA-18 fuel system, but would like to eleminate the header tanks. cub crafters stc wont work on the PA-11. Anyone out there ever get this done on a field approval ? Or maybe a 337 from years back?
    I dont see why the cub crafters stc wouldnt work after all this is a stock 18 fuel system we are installing. Think a fed would notice!!

  2. #2
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Use the CC STC as approved data. A PA11 is basically a PA18-95. I am using the CC STC as a basis for the same system in two PA16 Clippers with SC site gauges and a both position.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  3. #3
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Steve-

    When you do a 337 using the CC STC as approved data do you buy the STC, make a copy, or just cite it?

    Thanks
    Tim

  4. #4
    D. Davis's Avatar
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    Hi petez,
    I did that conversion with Atlee's STC, header tanks and all. I have been nothing but happy with the fuel system. FYI sometimes it is very important to have the separation between the L & R tanks.
    Dave.

  5. #5
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I have a copy from one I bought and installed and use the data for the approval.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
    I have a copy from one I bought and installed and use the data for the approval.
    Steve,

    This is interesting. My (limited) experience with trying to do this is that when you buy an STC you do not receive most of the "data" (engineering or testing) that was used to approve the STC and if you talk to the STC holder, he will likely not be willing to share the data supporting his STC. STC holders spend years and thousands of dollars to acquire the data for their STC and meet the requirements of FAA for their approval. Though there may be exceptions, it is generally in their financial interest to keep the data proprietary and not share it. The following also seems to make it clear that you should have permission from the STC holder to use it for a field approval.


    From Advisory Circular AC 43-210 - STANDARDIZED PROCEDURES FOR REQUESTING FIELD APPROVAL OF DATA, MAJOR ALTERATIONS, AND REPAIRS

    Approved data can be used to substantiate major alterations/repairs and can be derived from:

    (2) STC data, if it specifically applies to the item being repaired/altered. NOTE: The Federal Aviation Reauthorization Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-264), specifically section 403, STC, contains specific requirements concerning the use of STCs. It requires that the installer obtain permission from the STC holder to use the STC.

    All this said, there may be circumstances where an STC holder might have nothing to lose from sharing his data and be willing to do so.

    Rod

  7. #7
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsmarch
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
    I have a copy from one I bought and installed and use the data for the approval.
    Steve,

    This is interesting. My (limited) experience with trying to do this is that when you buy an STC you do not receive most of the "data" (engineering or testing) that was used to approve the STC and if you talk to the STC holder, he will likely not be willing to share the data supporting his STC. STC holders spend years and thousands of dollars to acquire the data for their STC and meet the requirements of FAA for their approval. Though there may be exceptions, it is generally in their financial interest to keep the data proprietary and not share it. The following also seems to make it clear that you should have permission from the STC holder to use it for a field approval.


    From Advisory Circular AC 43-210 - STANDARDIZED PROCEDURES FOR REQUESTING FIELD APPROVAL OF DATA, MAJOR ALTERATIONS, AND REPAIRS

    Approved data can be used to substantiate major alterations/repairs and can be derived from:

    (2) STC data, if it specifically applies to the item being repaired/altered. NOTE: The Federal Aviation Reauthorization Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-264), specifically section 403, STC, contains specific requirements concerning the use of STCs. It requires that the installer obtain permission from the STC holder to use the STC.

    All this said, there may be circumstances where an STC holder might have nothing to lose from sharing his data and be willing to do so.

    Rod

    Here is my thoughts:
    What does specific mean? Fuel tank? PA-18 fuel tank?

    I will gladly buy the paperwork if I am allowed to use the STC for my documentation. The biggest problem is, that if the FSDO decides that the STC you just bought is not good enough you are out of the money. So what is the best way around this?

    Tim

  8. #8
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The headerless fuel system with a both position isn't proprietary to Cub Crafters. Many A/C manufacturers do it. Jensen had an STC to put a Off/Left/Right/Both fuel valve in the Pacer along with a vent between the two tanks which is required by the FARs. Their STC consisted of the part inside the valve that CC STC allows you to drill through to provide the fuel to flow from both tanks. Cessna does the same. I simply sited the examples I knew of and proved that I met the FARs in my system. The Clipper originally had a 12 gallon nose tank and an 18 gallon wing tank. The Pacer which is almost an identical airplane has two wing tanks and due to the way the fuel lines are routed is prone to engine stoppage due to fuel starvation when operated on the rt. tank with less than a 1/3 of a tank of gas in other than straight and level flight. In the words of my PMI "you are building a better mouse trap." I would obtain an STC if there were more than 726 PA16s built of which about half of them are still around. I do not use the CC STC in my paperwork but referred to it to my PMI as an example as I do the Cessna or Pacer system.

    I take ideas that work from the A/C I have experience with to try and build a better, safer more maintenance friendly airplane for my purpose. I discuss my proposed mods with my PMI prior to work being started. If he thinks it falls within the guidelines of a field approval he will do it. If not it goes to engineering. He is an old timer and I dread the day he retires and the CYA young guys with no practicle experience take over.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  9. #9
    cubunltd's Avatar
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    I do the same thing Steve does. It's perfectly legal. You are not using the STC, you are merely using it as an example.

    John

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