Vendor bashing: I'm not sure what to think...

[SJ]

About midnight last night, I removed the Cub Crafter's job posting thread at the request of the original poster. We do this frequently with for sale and wanted threads, and occasionally other threads but this was a high profile thread and I knew its absence would bring about some discussion.

I am disappointed that ANY company would make a post offering jobs (of any sort) in the aviation industry and we as a group would be so hard on them - just for the sake of being hard on them. This is not the first time this has happened, and no doubt it won't be the last, but it does trouble me.

These forums were created to invite discussion (even controversial discussion) about products, manufacturers, planes, and other what not. Discussions like the CC thread, and a few others that come to mind, are going to make manuacturers very leary of posting late breaking and developmental information here for us to review first, a privilege that many of us enjoy. The numerous cheap shots made in this recent thread (even the expensive sounding cheap shots) were of no value other than to kick the person who had made the original post a few times for good measure.

Most vendors invite discussion on their products, and we have had some good threads on some products. The Thrustline thread and even the Exhaust threads are posing questions specifically related to the products and even challenging the vendors - not doing things like suggesting they house their green card employees in airframe crates, after they have imported them from Asia or Mexico.

I think it is an acknowledgement of the vast amount of cub knowledge that hangs out on this website that vendors want to discuss their products here. We all benefit from that and I feel like it is something we want to encourage, not discourage. All of us know when we are saying something important to the conversation and when we are just poking sharp sticks in other peoples eyes. If we want to continue to enjoy vendors late breaking news, and product discussion here, we are going to have to show a little bit of respect or they will just go away.

In summary, I think it is important to ask tough questions of each other and the vendors who post here, but when you post, remember a lot of people are watching what you say about others to form their idea of you.

Thanks!

sj

[gdafoe]

Good reminder Steve, Thanks.

[Ron B.]

I agree with you Steve 100%. I'm also a member of a helicopter forum and the same thing happens there, some people live to find criticism in everything. There is a difference if one has had a bad experience with a company and is venting their frustrations but to pick at someone for the fun of it, is hard to understand.

[wilbur]

I have said before, if you can't make a productive or constuctive statement, don't make one at all. If critisism (sp) isn't productive or constructive, what is it's purpose? One thing I've noticed here, is when some people make these statements to slap someone down, or pound their chest, they are telling people more about themselves, than the subject they are addressing. As far as I'm concerned the critical, "I'm in a possition to judge you critically" guys, are really telling me more about themselves than anything else....sometimes not pretty. I learned more about the posters on the hiring thread than CC, (it's not all negative). I've been in business for 26 years, and have a pretty good idea of what CC is doing, and why.....some of the posters showed they don't have clue.
Good post Steve, too bad you had to make it.
Wilbur

[busbart1]

In the profession I come from, Buses, The boards chastise any commercial comment to the point I give no impute anymore. It is interesting to watch the armchair experts give advice to some poor new comer.
I think if you are to bash the ones with the fortitude to make supplys for our planes they may too just give up or at least not be free with the info I so enjoy. Poles on the usefulness and qaulaty of a product is one thing but bad mouthing is another.

Bart Grabhorn

[mvivion]

Steve,

Excellent post, and excellent points all. It is VERY difficult to get producers of anything to participate on these forums for the very reasons you point out: So many of the posts amount to personal attacks, and nothing else.

Too bad.

I give CC a lot of credit for taking a lot of initiative, and I wish them well. I thought their initial post was a great offer for (potentially) some folks on this list.

Thanks for your reminder, I couldn't agree more.

MTV

[Dave Calkins]

I hope everyone aboard SC.org read this post, Steve.

I'd like to note, also, that some of us have our names to the left of each post we make. Others have some "snappy" alias listed there.

I surely expect to have someone toss a grenade through my picture window, at my house, on my street, in my city......if I make 'em mad with a post.

I'm sure we all take to heart the idea that bashing will remove the opportunity to discuss a "breaking" fresh idea for our favorite a/c.

On the other hand, genuine questions and dialogue on whatever topic, however controversial, and expectating genuine answers, should also be acceptable fodder on this great site.

[Christina Young]

I agree. I think the "punish the producer" mentality of some posters here is pathetic. They have no idea just how difficult (and risky) it is to develop, manufacture and market complex products, expecially in an over-regulated industry such as aviation. Kudos to Cub Crafters...... even though I don't have one of their cubs, they have done a hell of a job keeping parts & STCs for mine readily accessible and reasonably priced, and the world of super cubs humming! I hope they are able to hire a lot of top-notch people, to add to the ones they already have! Now if they would only start making stuff for my Stinson as well.

[tripleoption]

Excellent moderating, Steve.

As I begin my search for a job in aviation, I would hope my association with SC.org is worthwhile and beneficial. Some of the people contributing to my knowledge via this site are respected and trusted in a relatively tight-knit segment of aviation, and the opportunity to communicate with those people is an honor not bestowed upon my classmates. Perhaps my classmates don't care about tailwheels and pistons, but for those of us that do, SC.org is as good as it gets in terms of 'distance learning'.

However, online forums are well-known to be a haven for computer nerd wannabes and other riff-raff that have no purpose in life, and the mere mention of a forum may influence my potential employers to form opinions about me without them ever seeing SC.org. The reputation of SC.org among aviation employers is obviously one of high regard and respect, at least until CC came knocking. Because some employers might not hold SC.org in high regard, I choose not to advertise my membership or post my name.

I appreciate the effort to keep SC.org running in top-notch form. The professionalism and knowledge that congregates here is a great asset, not just to you and I, but to the companies that serve us. I hope we all continue to realize this.

[jimpattensc]

Steve... Good post. This needs to be said... in the open section, though, not just in the benefactors' section. Bashing in general, not just bashing vendors, puts most reasonable and thoughtful people way off. I have had several people tell me, in person, that they read the posts very regularly, but will not post themselves, because they fully expect some pretty rude, and often uninformed, bashing if they do post. One of these guys has many years crop dusting, some commercial/corporate flying that he still does, and he goes to Alaska every season with his cub and outfits. Not exactly the kind of person that should be put off. However, he is a real gentleman...and that is not a bad thing. A couple of months ago, I tried to persuade Jim Richmnond to post. He does read this fairly regularly, but he just didn't look forward to the jive from some of the regualrs. I am glad that Vera stepped up, but I wonder if she is glad. I am a little embarrased personally that I tried to talk Jim into posting, frankly. He and the rest of the crew at Cubcrafters are a class act, and absolutely do not deserve this.

[Torch]

I hope I haven't ever bashed a supporting vendor. I have stated I thought maybe one's prices were a bit high but I figure that is FEEDBACK. The company I referenced makes a great product, I just think they should lower the price. Nothing wrong with that. I will say that the Corvette Forum does not allow any bashing of Vendors. If someone bashes a sponsoring Vendor they are banned from the Forum. Also non-supporting Vendors are NOT allowed to make posts. The Corvette Forum is probably the most well run Forum on the internet. A lot can be learned from the best Forum on the internet.

[Aviator]

Anybody in business knows the value of customer feedback. If a business does not have armor thick enough to take the flack, it will lose touch with its client base. Some businesses pay huge amounts of money to survey customer satisfaction. Others stick their heads into the sand or hide in their cocoons when the feedback is unpalatable. Guess who will survive.

True, vendor bashing is sometimes childish, and may even be abrasive. But it is up to the vendor to weed out incoherent ramblings from legitimate complaints. After all, the feedback he is getting is FREE.

If I were the business being targeted, I would certainly appreciate unedited comments about my performance, good or bad, because it would help me feel my customers' pulse. I would specifically want to hear what my customers don't like about my product or the way I treat them.

Just my $.02

[hottshot]

You also have to hope that the person would contact you (the vender) first before bashing/what ever, because it don't always happen that way!!

[wilbur]

Thanks Wup,
I was heading the same direction. I'd say most business owners welcome customer input, if it is brought to them directly.
Aviator, I think I know what you're trying to say, and good healthy criticism is good, but bashing, or being childish, or abrasive....are not productive criticism. I think those kind of things are what head this site in the wrong direction, causing some suppliers, contractors, and members to limit what they bring here.
Wilbur

[fobjob]

Most people don't realize that a manufacturer has little control over the price he asks for his product. It's a function of his shop floor capacity. The only way he can lower the price if his shop is being fully utilized is to enlarge the shop floor capacity to increase number of units manufactured and therefore take advantage of quantity pricing of his raw materials. In a very limited market like ours, that could well lead to suicide.
On the other hand, if his shop floor is underutilized, he can drop his price to fill the area, but only to the point where he can get a profit over his parts and labor cost. Suicide from a different direction. Kinda like 'coffin corner'....I don't ever want to be in manufacturing, again.....

[Tim]

Torch, relax will ya, I was just bustin your balls. And I am a donor, almost from the beginning.

Tim

[RMREBOB]

All that has been said above about a savey vendor appreciating feedback (good or bad) from customers is true but I can see why some may be a little uncomfortable about some of the borderline slanderous and often untrue comments that I have read here. The thing we all have to keep in mind is that there are those who read our posts as if the were gospel and we would do well to make sure of our facts before we post. Not so much for the vendors benefit but for the benefit of those who read them and often depend on them when making decisions.

[Aviator]

hottshot, wilbur,

I don?t necessarily disagree with you guys. Now I know I?m not much on explaining things (at least that?s what my tax auditor says), so I?ll try the following analogy.

As you approach a village along a country dirt road at night, a farm dog runs up to the fence, barking as though he wants you for his next meal. Though you can safely ignore him because the fence will protect you, you would be wise not to ignore the effect the barking will have on the village. You know that all the other dogs will join the chorus, and that the village will be aroused from its sleep. You might not be able to do much about it, but at least you?ll know what awaits you, and you can plan for it.

Now imagine the same adventure, except that you decide to put a slug in the dog. Two things will happen: One, your shot might do more to arouse the village than the dog?s bark. Even those who might not want to crawl out of the sack to see why the dogs are barking will likely get up to the sound of a gunshot. Two, you will no longer be able predict what awaits you.

So the moral of the story is twofold:

1. Silencing opinion in a public forum speaks much louder that the opinion itself.

2. It is always better to plan for adversity than to hope it won?t come. And you can?t plan without information.

I wouldn?t worry about posters bashing vendors (if I were a vendor). I?d worry about the credibility they might gain if their views were suppressed, and about the information I don?t have.

(And please don?t tell me that I was right: I can?t explain anything.)

[hottshot]

Yep, your right.....

All I was saying was if you have a problem with something you should contact that person with your issue before hanging it out for everyone to see, most often the issue can be solved but sometimes not. As for the sensorship of the web site Steve has been fair so far and I don't see that changing. If there are ways for Steve and Dana to do things to keep the web site going smoothly than do what you have to do, some people aren't going to like it but such is life.....

Sj--

Good Luck and "May the Schwarts be with you" (Space Balls)


Wup, AKA: Hottshot

[LANDSHORT]

Well Said, Steve.

I was amazed at negative statements made to the CC thread for new employment.

Really quite odd. I guess these sites just bring out the "negative" or "suspicious" nature in some folks.

Scott

[RedBaron]

Steve,

I disagree with your post. Not because of the content of it, actually that seems to be in order.
Rather, I disagree because everyone else so far has agreed, and I feel that SOMEONE should be the voice of balance. While I find it unfortunate that it should be me, I nevertheless take apon myself full responsibility understanding the no doubt forthcoming consequences. :P
In truth however, it is unfortunate that folks have to "bash" for the sake of causing pain and mahem, but the balance is without an opposing voice there is no progress. Call it part of the "Growing Pains" process if you will.
I bash and get bashed by those who resent my presence in their competetive flying arena, and while I dislike being bashed, dishing bashing back out can balance the scale it would seem.
Hopefully feelings will not be hurt, and progress can be made from what we hope is Constructive Criticism.

Cheers!

[Speedo]

I'd rather that we avoid bashing altogether. Life is short and presents more than enough difficulties, unpleasantries, and smacks upside the head. We don't need to add more negativity by bashing other people or vendors.

It's possible to share our experiences (both good and bad) without resorting to bashing. Obviously it takes a lot more effort to share bad experiences without having it sound like bashing, but I think it's worth the trouble.

It's also possible to share our opinions without bashing or putting someone down. The person who can express his opinion without belittling someone else is more likely to convince others that he's standing on the right side of an issue.

My hope is that all who post on SuperCub.org will adopt a non-bashing policy, and all who read posts will will assume the best, not the worst, when a post can be interpretted more than one way.

Eric Goss

[Aviator]

It's funny how you have never hear anyone bash Atlee (F.A. Dodge), Lee (Airframes), or George (Central Cylinder), and of course many others. It seems it's always the same vendors who get the bashing. Makes you wonder why.

[S2D]

When this forum gets to the point one can't voice his opinions or experiences with a vendor, it will cease to be worth logging on to.We already get enough of the rosy side of everything from the trade publications that depend on the advertising dollar from the vendors. Real world experiences good or bad with the performance, value, customer support, etc are a good portion of what makes a forum worthwhile.
I don't think the policies of this forum should be dictated by any vendor or the concerns whether they will continue to participate on the forums.
If one is to use Atlee as the benchmark for reference, he doesn't participate here or probably even give a squat what people think about him personally, he just seems to back his products to the point he feels is right and let the chips fall where they may. And he seems to have a high approval rating.
Now its up to Steve to decide which way he wants the forum to go.
I do however feel that unfounded personal attacks on a vendor should be discouraged.

[StewartB]

Bashing is in fashion. Look at American Idol. Why would anyone watch that trash? American Idol was the #1 Google search item last year.

Sad but true.

SB

[Flying Miss Daisy]

I have made some negative criticsm's in the past concerning FA Dodge and Cub Crafters in relation to the way service on both the phone and e mails were responded too. I held up Lee Budde at Airframes as an example as a person and company that I enjoyed doing business with. These comments were in response to a member asking about a purchasing experience. I quickly found that certain members have a very strong belief that certain vendors and their service should go unquestioned. I will not now or ever in the future post concerning FA Dodge as his standing in the SC community is sacred to many. I do not understand however why CC is not seen in the same light. I posted on the recent CC thread and I was positive in nature and felt that the salary structure offered is really none of my business and admired CC for posting from within our organization. I do agree with Steve when it comes to cheap shots at the vendors. I know one vendor who rarely posts his operational knowledge as he feels it brings about heavy counter attacks and hurts his standing. I do believe that if we have had negative experience with a vendor we should not be coerced into silence. OK my 2cents....."Live Free and Fly" John

[wilbur]

One thing some here may be missing is Steve's first post. Read it again. Cheap shot's are the problem, tough questions are welcome. Constuctive criticism is welcome. Saying that someone's product is a piece of "****"? That tells me a lot, I can learn a lot from that.

Maybe it comes down to showing a little class. And respect. That guy on American Idol shows no class. I'll bet he's a real sweetheart in the social cirlces.

There is a huge difference between "no criticism allowed" and cheap shots, bashing, and name calling. I would like to think we are intelligent enough to ask all the tough questions, and give all the tough answers. And if opinions is involved, show the same respect that we expect in return. When someone forgets to use tact during my phone coversations, they soon find themselves talking to an empty phone.

Wilbur

[diggler]

delete

[PA-18]

Hi Steve, I think it is great coming down on people who have nothing but bad news to spread,there is enough of that everyday to go around. I found your website long ago and thought it was informative in its early days. I hardly see anymore posts from the people I would like to here from who know what they are talking about. I beleive most are run-off by professional forum posters. I have dealt with Jim and cubcrafters since 1988 when I puchased a used cub from him,and have never had anything but great respect for him and his company. I look forward to meeting you at the redriver fly in and all the others. I just wanted you to know I appreciate having this sight for positive info. PA-18 Bayne Horne

[SJ]

Thanks, Bayne. If you ever come up with any ideas about how to recultivate those kinds of discussions, I am all ears. There are still some great folks around with some great info, but I agree we have lost more than I care to say due to bickering, trolling, bashing, and the like.

sj

[T.J.]

Going back to the original title of this thread......
I've thought about it for a while and I came up with this.....
If you can't take the heat, stay outta the kitchen.

[Aviator]

...FA Dodge as his standing in the SC community is sacred to many...

John, there's probably a reason for that.

...I do not understand however why CC is not seen in the same light.

There's probably a reason for that, too.

...The Alaskan boys stand by their men...

Digg, I'm 3,000 miles from Alaska so I don't think it's just the Alaskan boys.

...If you can't take the heat, stay outta the kitchen.

Well said T.J. Getting feedback was the reason Steve started this thread in the first place. Since he didn't specify PMs, I suppose he was willing to take the heat, if any, to get raw opinions.

[diggler]

[delete

[SJ]

Because I think this is a valuable discussion we are having, I chose to split off the largely unrelated posts (including a number of my own) and put them in a rant and rave post where you can contemplate those items, pictures, etc, if you like.

It has been interesting to say the least the large number of PM's and emails I have gotten from vendors and from ordinary users who don't post here at all anymore because they fear being attacked by people who just have nothing better to do. Most are not concerned with problems and questions, just with being harassed with unsubstantiated or made up garbage. I would guess (although I did not count) I have received at least 50 emails and pms (and even some phone calls) on this topic alone - probably a record - at least in the last year or so.

I get the sense that we are all pretty much in agreement, except that everybody seems to have some person/company they have an axe to grind with and in those cases they will drop any pretense of problem solving for a good donnybrook.

I am still open for suggestions on good ways to facility useful discussions with our vendors without running them off, and the same should be said about folks in general. I hate to see people leave because somebody chose to jump on them on their first post, and it happens way more than you think.

Finally, I have said this before but remember that 30K people a month are looking at this forum, a lot of those folks could be posting....

sj

[flagold]

I don't doubt the phone calls, PM's, etc., a bit, and that is the problem with vendors . . . they always want to censor in their favor.

Diggler and others have hit the nail -- if a riot breaks out anytime a particular vendor is named -- there's probably reason behind it. You may not understand the reason, the reason may not be stated plainly to prevent hurting other victims and degrading the value of their widgets publicly, but there's a reason anytime a nuclear bomb goes off on certain vendors.

Some have said we need more vendors to keep prices down -- this is true and false at the same time. True -- if the vendors are making top quality products of their own design. False if they are predators constantly using others in the almighty buck quest -- as they simply take away with every sale what could have been built or rebuilt legitimately and ultimately increase prices as the legitimate re-builders and builders are decimated by predatory practices and claims. Ultimately, the predator will fail, either by design or implosion, and whenever they fail whatever was supplied by them will be worthless (or worth much less) so the economy provided by them is simply a false one.

The predator thrives in confusion. 100 people's great experience ordering parts may be offset by one person's atrocious experience with a much more costly assembled widget and the predator counts on the 100 shouting down the one. The predator also knows the disgruntled high buck burned widget buyer is in a conundrum: to publicize being burned (and the paperwork deal made and the quality of construction of the widget are total separate issues) devalues his own widget rapidly. All this confusion together works in favor for a long period of time, until there are enough disgruntled "ones" to form an army of disgruntled widget-buyers.

Another trouble getting in bed with vendors -- if you support them (censor in their favor) -- you blindly stand behind every deal, every phone conversation, all of it, totally, 24 hours a day . . . that's describes an advertisement -- not a website -- and I believe our little home here was created because of censorship by a vendor (in fact -- I know it was). A shame, if we simply recreate that advertisement . . .

Piper SuperCubs are great airplanes -- and don't be surprised if I order up a Piper SuperCub from one of you re-builders someday because I did love them so.

PS: Steve -- I don't take offense that my hooters pic was danaied.

[Cajun Joe]

Is that it??? There are actually people building brand new Cubs and putting those who rebuild them out of work??? Are these he sames folks who take issue with Willie G. for the development of the "Evolution Engine" because it was putting bike mechanics out of work?

Today we have been taught that things don't have to be true to be believed. Mr. Clinton engraved the "Big Lie" in history with "what is is?"

Folks get their seconds of fame on TV and now in the international scope of a simple Cub forum. As our politicians taught us and reminded us in '04 "just lie, there's no time for the truth to be found."

And time is always the key when reputations and life are in the balance.
Ole Willie Shakes hit it on the head when he had Marc Anthony proclaim,
"The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones."

I pray that Steve can continue to manage our site without our burying those who feed us.

Joe LeBlanc
And to Jim, Nathan, Vera, stan, Earl and the rest; thanks for being there when so many of us have called.

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Is there a way that a forum be provided to clearly express our feelings and experiences with vendors both positive and negative. This could be in the forum that the vendor could respond to to tell both sides of the sale and the defense of a product. I understand that this should be limited to clear and concise critiscm that is productive and it should never cross over the cheap shot boundary. It may be my Naive way of solving a problem and increasing customer service. Live Free and Fly.... John

[SJ]

Good points, Matt.

Joe, I have not purchased a backhoe just yet, but will look into it. Thanks for the sentiments.

John, it would be possible to give vendors their own individual self MODERATED forums, with the FULL DISCLOSURE that that is what they are. They could be "member only" forums or open to the public, really that would be up to the vendor. The rest of the forums would remain as they are, but it would give vendors a place to get some feedback, etc, on their terms.

Since Supercub.org is NOT a vendor specific forum, or even a Super Cub specific forum for that matter, that policy would not extend to all the nomral forums partially for the reasons flagold points out.

Most of us (rational people) can sit across from somebody and either work out our differences, or at least agree to them and move on. Sometimes this is hard to do on an electronic forum. When you feel you have been done wrong by someone (vendor, moderator, FAA, etc) the reaction sometimes is not to seek a solution to the problem by direct confrontation of the invovled parties, but instead to wallow in it for all it is worth.

sj

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Steve is the way that ebay rates its vendors with a very limited description an option in a members only forum? Once again in my own Naive way and of course I have given no thought to the administration that it would take. The best way of course is to confront the vendor upfront or pay the bill and never darken the vendors door again. Live Free and Fly ....John

[gdafoe]

I takes a lot on intelligence, thought, planning, fortitude, persistence, money, time, work, commitment, etc, to produce a quality product.

I takes NO intelligence, thought, planning, fortitude, persistence, money, time, work, commitment, etc, to produce negative comments about a quality product