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Thread: Brake cylinder options

  1. #1
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Brake cylinder options

    Anybody do any research on what alternate brake master cylinders we can use besides Scott? The Smith Cub looks like a different brand. The Scotts sure are pricey, even used.

    Bugs

  2. #2
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Steve Tubbs at Performance Air in Caldwell, ID has a very nice Scott replacement with a piston instead of a diaphram. He told me they were working on certification but haven't heard anything about it. It might be what the Smith comes with.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  3. #3
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    I spoke to Steve Tubbs at Performance Air and have seen his cyls. They are awesome but also not available. He had a machinist friend doing them for him, made up a dozen sets or so at about 850 a set. But they were costing the machinist friend more time than they were recovering in the cost ie this guy was just doing it for a friend type situation. Steve felt like this was straining a friendship so he tried to take it to a more commercial level.
    A couple of changes/ improvements and now the bids from machine shops to make them has put them, cost wise, as impractical.
    He has none left and is at a loss as to a replacement.
    We might be all looking into a motorcycle type assembly as an option.

    Bill

  4. #4
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Too bad about Performance Air brakes. I wonder if we could use what Barrows has done for the Bearhawk Patrol? Might be looking at toe brakes though.

    I'd like to know more about the motorocycle option too. Any more details or is that only a concept?

    Bugs

  5. #5
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    Brakes

    Some of the guys up here are doing an STC replacement using Parker Aerospace (Wag Aero or Aircraft Spruce) cylinders (around $100.00 ea.)layed down and connected directly to the front brake pedals on a PA-18. They use a remote resvouir. The one end mounts to the firewall vertical side tube with a small bracket welded to it and the other end to front brake pedal arm where the rod used to connect (that actuated the old Scott master). The only problem is this give brakes to the front seat only, no rear passange brakes, but they really work well. Crash

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    Look on the Smith Cub website www.supercubkits.ca under the manual section, and check out how they handle the brakes. Don't know if they sell this setup separate, but it might be worth a call.

    Frank

  7. #7
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank T
    Look on the Smith Cub website www.supercubkits.ca under the manual section, and check out how they handle the brakes. Don't know if they sell this setup separate, but it might be worth a call.

    Frank
    I've seen those and would like to know what they are. Looks like good stuff. Any Smithies out there know?

    Bugs

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    Brakes

    I am building a Smith 18 kit. The brakes you see are made buy
    a gentleman in Michigan, $350 a set and great quality! You do
    need to buy master cylinders of your choice. E mail if you need
    his name and number, I have to talk with him before posting his name.

    Have a great day, Jon

  9. #9

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    Jon

    What Airbox are you Smith builders running on the O-360's?

    Frank

  10. #10
    KOZ's Avatar
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    Brakes

    Smith Brakes currentlyon E-Bay.

  11. #11
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Re: Brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by KOZ
    Smith Brakes currentlyon E-Bay.
    I don't find anything. Have a link?

  12. #12
    KOZ's Avatar
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    Brakes

    Listed under Brake Master Cylinder Bracket/pedal Assembly

  13. #13
    Crash's Avatar
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    Brake Masters

    Dakota Cub was showing their new brake master cylinder at the Alaskan Airmans show this weekend. It looks like the best thing going for a Cub that I have seen. I looked at the Smith set up and it is not bad either, but you have to mount a resevouir somewhere to make it operate and that is more tubing, fittings and problems. The Dakota Cub master had the resivour machined into the housing. The card in my digital camera was full so I didn't get a shot of it (duh, I should have deleated something) .

    I also looked at the Smith "wide body" PA-18 kit and I have to admit it looks pretty darn good. I still don't know about the square tubes replacing the drag / anti drag wires in the wing. They probably are OK though. Crash

  14. #14
    kase's Avatar
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    I had some pictures of Dakota Cubs brake master cylinder but deleted them when I was cleaning up my computer. Nice thing about them they are a direct replacement with a booster built in.

    My IA and I were examining them a few weeks ago and he was wondering if you could use a parking brake with them? Thinking that with a resivoir, if you push the pedal ahead and lock the brake, as the piston comes back it will refill the booster part of the brake therefor locking the brakes until you go out and let fluid out. He and another guy tried to invent a resivior to use with a brake booster but couldnt come up with a system that didnt lock up the whole system when using a parking brake.

  15. #15
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Does this brake look like the one Steve Tubbs at Performance Air has?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  16. #16
    Crash's Avatar
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    Dakota Cub master cylinder

    I was told by the Dakota Cub rep that a parking brake was included in the price. He said a set would still be up around $1,000.00 but by the time you buy a set of Scotts, add a parking brake and boosters you are well over this. Crash

  17. #17
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Re: Dakota Cub master cylinder

    Quote Originally Posted by Crash
    I was told by the Dakota Cub rep that a parking brake was included in the price. He said a set would still be up around $1,000.00 but by the time you buy a set of Scotts, add a parking brake and boosters you are well over this. Crash
    Hmmm, as the frugal homebuilder I was hoping for something cheaper than Scott. Maybe that will work ok for the FAA/PMA folks.

    If we go with the Smith assembly it would be:
    1. $350 - Smith brake assembly
    2. $150 - pair of Matco MC-4s cylinders
    3. $75 - pair of Wag Aero parking brakes (would these work?)
    4. $50 - remote brake reservoir

    Total $650. Does that sound right? What am I missing?

    Bugs

  18. #18
    kase's Avatar
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    $1000.00 for the Dakota Cub master cylinders looks like a good deal. Did Mark show you his new fuel site gages?

  19. #19
    Crash's Avatar
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    Brakes

    Bugs, is that $350.00 each or for a pair. If it is for a pair, then that is a good deal. I didn't see anyway to install a parking brake on the Smith set-up though. Those Smith guys were pretty clever in their design.

    Kase: No, I didn't see Dakota's new site guage, what is it like?

    Crash

  20. #20
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Re: Brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Crash
    Bugs, is that $350.00 each or for a pair. If it is for a pair, then that is a good deal. I didn't see anyway to install a parking brake on the Smith set-up though. Those Smith guys were pretty clever in their design.

    Kase: No, I didn't see Dakota's new site guage, what is it like?

    Crash
    That was for a pair. They are $375 now. I found the eBay link HERE

  21. #21
    kase's Avatar
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    Crash, its simular to orginal as in it will be a direct replacement but it will have several improvments.

    Another thing about the master cylinders are that they are interchangable left to right.

    steve, I think I saw Tubbs master cylinders a few years ago on a exp cub but dont rember what they looked like.

  22. #22
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    And all the Pacers and Tri Pacers.
    They don't know didly about Pacers and Tri-Pacers.

    Tubbs cylinders look like a Scott machined out of billet with boosters and a reservor. Daytona Cub had them on their version of the Smith Cub at Sentimental Journey a couple of years ago.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Air box

    Frank, I ordered the round intake from Smith. My fuselage will be at the
    Smith booth at EAA, after the show I can get serious about my
    FWF. Have wings and all surfaces in the covering process now.

    Jon

  24. #24

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    I had an ear break off a Scott master about a quarter-century ago. I made a new one and screwed it into the casting with 8-32 cap screws. I cannot imagine any other failure mode for the original Scott. Stripped threads can be heli-coiled, and corrosion forever stopped with the right brake fluid. I really can't say that I was not satisfied with the Scott/Hayes brakes, but if Grove Aircraft ever gets his 8:00x4 discs certified, I suspect brake problems will be non-existent for those of us who do not need the power of double pistons and boosters.

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    Keep an eye out on ebay. I have two complete sets of the Scott's that I bought one cylinder at a time over the last few months. You will pay more for the right hand cylinders because there are not as many around, but I don't I have much over $100 average per cylinder in them, and that includes parking brake valves. So even after a rebuild or adding boosters the price was right.

    Frank

  26. #26

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    BTW there are two Scott right hand brake pedals on ebay right now with a buy-it-now price of $65. Univairs price $202.32, Wag $212.50

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    delete

  28. #28
    flybynite's Avatar
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    Grove brakes almost nearly STC'd

    I received this email a few days ago.....

    We?re nearing the end of the journey! Over a year ago Grove Aircraft began the process of obtaining STC approval for the installation of our disc brakes on aircraft equipped with B.F. Goodrich/Hayes Models 840 and 841 4" wheels, including most of the earlier Piper aircraft such as the J-3, J-5, PA-11, PA-12, PA-15, PA-16, PA-17, PA-18, and PA-20.

    The process has involved the efforts of a FAA Designated Airworthiness Representative, five FAA Designated Engineering Representatives, a host of FAA personal, over 200 pages of engineering drawings, stress analysis? materials analysis, flight testing, etc. as well as piles of money. I can?t image what would be required to certify a totally new aircraft.

    Currently everything has been submitted to the FAA and we?re awaiting issuance of the STC. They have told us that this should occur within the next thirty days, and we are hoping to deliver our first orders by the end of the year.

    In anticipation of this, we are preparing for our first production run of the brake conversion kits. We have had a lot of interest, but now we need to know who is serious.

    If you are seriously interested in purchasing one of these disc brake conversion kits, please send us the following information so that we may include you in our first production run. The price for the initial production run is $749.00 per set.

    Name, Address, Aircraft Model, Serial and Registration Numbers, E-mail address and Telephone Number.

    You may submit the above information to us by phone, fax or e-mail, or by going to our Cub web page at www.groveaircraft.com/cub.html. Payment need not be made until time of shipment, but by submitting this information to us, you will be assured of being included in our first production run.

    Robbie Grove

  29. #29
    labdad32
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    Brakes

    I just installed the Matco MC-4I cylinders, a remote reservoir (mounted on the front rail of the seat) and the pedals mentioned earlier. The "I" model cylinders have the "intensifiers" (boosters) in them. The whole arrangement bolts-up perfectly. We will see how they work later.

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    Is this thread now out of date? I was just reading Mark Drath's writeup in Cub Clues on Dakota masters, and understand that Steve's has a reservoir setup as well. What Mark says makes lots of sense - that the non-reservoir masters need refilling at regular (frequent) intervals. The J-3 with discs is not a big hassle - six month recharges seem to take care of it - but Mark pointed out that the higher pressure units need servicing more often, because it takes only a tiny bit of fluid (or pad wear) to make the pedal go down lots further. Do we have experience out there with the reservoir setups?

  31. #31
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner
    Is this thread now out of date? I was just reading Mark Drath's writeup in Cub Clues on Dakota masters, and understand that Steve's has a reservoir setup as well. What Mark says makes lots of sense - that the non-reservoir masters need refilling at regular (frequent) intervals. The J-3 with discs is not a big hassle - six month recharges seem to take care of it - but Mark pointed out that the higher pressure units need servicing more often, because it takes only a tiny bit of fluid (or pad wear) to make the pedal go down lots further. Do we have experience out there with the reservoir setups?
    Bob-

    Depends on the capacity, piston size, and the pressure applied to the piston. Did you calibrate your feet and run all of the tests with the same enviromental conditions?

  32. #32
    wingnut18's Avatar
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    Had Cub Crafters boosters on Scott frames, got tired of adding fluid all the time. Bought Steve's reservoir brakes. Ran them for a year, went back to the Cub Crafters. The Steve's simply were not as powerful as the Cub Crafters. I was really reefing on the pedals to stop, I was afraid I was going to bend something. When they were hot or wet, forget about stopping. I have double puck Clevelands, and high pressure lines from the cylinders to the brakes, and 31" Bushwheels. The Cub Crafters are much more powerful, and I keep and eyedropper of brake fluid and a 5/8 wrench under the seat. The Steves would be a great choice if you are not running 31's.

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    No tests - just by feel it seems like we add fluid more often to the Cubs with brake boosters. Mark just explained why.

    My first impulse was to say save the weight and stay with the standard stuff - but one Cub takes fluid every two months, with no discernible leaks. Mark says Dakota masters ensure very stiff pedals, which I think is what my buddies want.

  34. #34
    Crash's Avatar
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    I ran Scotts with the North River (now Cub Crafters) boosters for years. Some times I carried a little bottle of fluid along to top them up because if you lost a couple of drops of fluid your brakes were gone.

    I removed them a couple of years ago and installed a set of Dakota masters. After filling them and bleeding out the air I have never touched them. They are the best thing going in my opinion. Lots of power and no maintenance.

    I sold the Scott masters, so out of pocket was around $400.00.

    Take care.

    Crash

  35. #35

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    I manufacture an experimental HD booster master cylinder that bolts into all experimentals with the scott bolt pattern. They sell for $500 with out pedals. They use the scott left and right pedal.


  36. #36
    StewartB
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  37. #37
    Crash's Avatar
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    Cub Crafters has the same product. Not sure if they copied North River or are getting them from Northern Piper. The North River boosters disappeared for a while. Maybe during the sale to Northern Piper.

    http://www.cubcrafters.com/services/...px?category=10

    Kind of odd that Northern Piper is pushing them when they are the Dakota Cub dealer for Alaska and Dakota Cub has a much better competing product.

    http://www.dakotacub.com/new_page_43.htm

    Take care.

    Crash

  38. #38

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    I pulled this thread with a "search" but it seems to me there was a discussion on reservoirs that I did not find. Crash and Mark have me leaning toward recommending the Dakota Cub product. I have never had problems with Dakota Cub stuff. Everybody raves about Steve's as well - we have one gascolator installed, and probably another Cub getting ready for the installation.

    Thanks for the info -

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