What Cylinders would you choose if you were to build up an O-360?
What Cylinders would you choose if you were to build up an O-360?
Hi Frank, I voted for the ECI-Titan, but I really don't think it will make a difference as long a YOU are comfortable with the decision.
Years ago I had my O-320-E2D rebuilt and i had the old cylinders cermi-chromed. At that time, it was supposed to be the best thing going, and on the basis of that reputation, I had it done. I ran the engine for about 10 years with no problem. It was smooth, reliable, etc, etc.
During that time it came out that the Cermichrome process was causing problems and now that process is no longer available. The point is, what seems to be the latest greatest today may not be so tomorrow, and if enough people respond to this poll, you will find a great diversity of opinion.
I'm also particularly interested in this poll also since I'm going to do a teardown/inspection before putting it back on the airplane, if for no other reason than my own piece of mind.
-Bob
Frank,
I'm using Titan nickel cylinders on my 0-320. The coating's guaranteed for five years, and if the coating stays, they can't rust. ECI also flow matches and sends you 4 cylinders that have the piston sets weight matched and installed in the barrels. Good service, too.
SB
I went with Millennium investment cast cylinders on my PA-14. It runs real strong and you can hang on the prop it has so much compression. A friend hand proped it and couldn't believe how much compression it had over his PA-18 160hp with Lycoming cylinders. Millennium hurt itself on the bigger Lycoming and Continental engines with cracking cylinders and poor support. Their parallel valve O-320 and O-360 cylinders have a good reputation. Lycoming cylinders are just fine through first run, expect them to crack after that. ECI's used to be junk but the new Titans are gaining a good reputation. Crash
I have used a set of both Investment and Standard cast millenniums and think that standard cast ones are just fine. The investment cast cyl. are a work of art but in the long run I doubt that you would know the difference except in the pocket book. $1200.00 dollars a set more for the investment cast buys a fair amount of gas. ECI's Titans have had some issues with cracking in the past ( all though I haven't read anything lately). Overhauling or installing overhauled cyls. is a waste of time and money when you consider the cost of overhauled vs. new.
Matt
I like the Milleniums. I have built several Lycomings with the standard cast with no problems. Break-In was fast too. The investment cast I have read is like having a set flow matched. I don't know if it is worth the extra $. I agree with Matt, I wouldn't waste my time or money on rebuilt cylinders.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
Hi,
I installed 4 milleniums on my 0-200. I have about 150 hours on them
and I think they are great. The cyl's are standard cast and come with
an STC to bump up the timing which makes the engine run smoother.
Dave.
SB
How much did ECI get for flowmatching your cylinders?
Frank
Frank,
It's standard procedure with Titans. I specifically asked for and received weight matched piston sets, but that may be standard as well. The pistons are installed to allow the factory to install the rings correctly. The 5 year barrel wear and corrosion warranty sold me. Coincidentally, I have Milleniums on my big airplane.
SB
http://www.eci2fly.com/NewsRoom/News_Releases/TITAN.htm
Millennium investment cast cylinders are flow matched and weight matched as well if you buy a complete set. The if you really want the weight to match you need to install the connecting rod to the piston with rings, plugs, bearings, rod cap, etc., together and weigh the entire "piston & rod" assembly on a scale that goes down to grams. Bob at BJ's said he does this when he rebuilt my engine. He pointed out a lug on the connecting rod he dresses down to get the assembly within a couple of grams of one another. My engine from him is smooth, dosn't leak a drop of oil and burns a quart in about 12 hours or more. Tell the truth, I don't even think about oil consumtion anymore on this engine and really haven't timed it. I change oil every 30 hours and some time in there I usually put in a quart. Crash
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The other day I was looking at an ECI(titan?) 0-200 cyl., it had just been removed @ 150hrs. The rocker shaft(boss) holes were drilled off square and the side-loaded valve had failed. The standard millenniums I installed 700hrs. ago on my 160hp. are all still in the high 70's.
Nanook,
Must've been a Classic Cast. Titans aren't produced for engines smaller than 0-320. And let's face it, Lycoming, ECI, and Superior all have histories of failed cylinders. Millenium now has it's "New Millenium" cylinders, and ECI has Titans. They responded to problems and made improvements. They're forcing the level of quality higher through competition. It's a good thing, the factories weren't going to do it.
SB
Over all, I've had the best luck with Superiors. Some of the major cylinder shops hate ECI's, for whatever that is worth. Stay with steel barrels, the Cermi-this and thats seem to like to burn more oil. Be careful with rod and crank "balancing". I've seem rods and cranks trashed by some idiot with a dope scale and a bench grinder.
Mark, What did you do in your previous life? LOLsome idiot with a dope scale and a bench grinder.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
Stewartb: If you say so. I was just standing in a shop looking at how far the rocker boss holes were drilled off of true, it was pretty easy to see with the naked eye. You would hope that would not make it past quality control, or that it is an isolated incident. I gave up on ECI after the cermi-chrome/cermi-nil debacle. It just seems to me that coating cylinder walls for whatever reasons is not the way to go. Either the factory nitrided or the millennium through hardened steel is the way to go. The old process of channel chroming was hard to break in, and ECI got their start adding material to the chroming process to help the rings break-in. Why not just forget about the whole process and go with hardened steel. I honestly don't know what a Titan cyl. means, I don't pay any attention to what ECI is doing anymore, after their past problems.
http://www.ramaircraft.com/newproduc...lcylinders.htm
http://www.ramaircraft.com/nascar-ni...-cylinders.htm
Like I said, I also own Milleniums. Why Titans this time? Because I can read. Nikasil is not hocus-pocus. High performance engine shops that build car, snowmobile, boat, and motorcycles have been using it for years. If you like Milleniums, that's great. I do, too.
The issues that haunt cylinders are cracking, bore wear, and corrosion. Titan addresses the issues. Are the problems solved? Time will tell, but doing something is better than doing nothing.
SB
I read on the lycoming site awhile back where they claim their factory cylinders are lighter weight compared to aftermarket products. I went back to try and find the link but couldn't locate the webpage....sorry. But anyway, i remember reading that somewhere.
It was in their ad's. Cylinders are one of those things that a little extra weight might be a good thing after having changed out a good many for cracking. I'm glad we have so many company's in the aftermarket cylinder buisiness to keep Lycoming and Continental in check on price and quality.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
If it works.(For ECI, do they have the process right this time?) There are some very corrosive environments that some aircraft operate in, that could benefit, or engines that sit for long periods. But the biggest problem has been in the past, cylinders were "chromed back" to life and the heads were cracking from fatigue. ECI cranked out more than their share of them. It's good to hear that they are learning from their mistakes. In my opinion steel cyl. when operated properly do just fine. When they have done their time, retire them to the scrap heap and put a new set on.
I talked to the guys at Ram Aircraft today and they tell me they are TOTALY SOLD on ECI's Nickel Cylinders. Not only for the corrosion protection but also wear. Ram is sending brand new Continental Crossflow Cylinders to ECI and having the bore ground out and the Nickel installed. They are seeing these cylinders installed on the Big Bore High HP Continentals not only go all the way to TBO, but many are still within new limits when removed. Ram probably does more overhauls on the Big Bore Continentals than the factory, so this says a lot for the Nickel Process.
Frank
I agree. I used to maintain 4 Cessna 210s. No. 2 cylinder always wore the bore out. Ram does a nice job on their OH's.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
The factory IO-520s I've flown all went to TBO (factory Cylinders) Those were -F or-Ds. Depends on how you operate them and also wether the fuel pressures(metered/unmetered) are set-up from the get-go. I have seen quite a few 520s with high-end cyl. wear from not having enough fuel getting to the cyl's. Many were floatplanes that stay at take-off power for a longer period of time and that fuel flow/pressure is critical for high-end cylinder cooling, also operating at low level in cold dense air, they will run leaner. Do it right and they will treat you right.......
Nanook
It's the higher powered Continentals +325HP engines that I'm referring to. The Continental TSIO-520/550's used in the Malibu and Lancair IV virtually never make even half TBO on a set of factory cylinders whether operated Rich or Lean of Peak. The Lancair IV factory airplane went over 1800 Hrs on the bottom end but took 3 sets of cylinders to get there. When RAM tells me they are seeing the Nickel Cylinders going to TBO it speaks VOLUMES for the process.
Frank
Frank T, I realize that, that's why I said IO-520s, You started this discussion stating you were building a 0-360. Now we are talking about cyls. that are operating at 40+"MP at take-off power. The 4cyl. Lycs don't need nickel cyls., Unless you're on the coast and you don't fly your plane much. The steel cyls. will go to TBO and then some. I worked on CE-402's(TSIO-520) and PA-31-350's(L&TIO-540) for over 20yrs. The chrome cyls. didn't last any longer than the steel. If the cyl. is abused by leaning/temps/too high power settings, the steel rings wear out on the chrome cyl. and the steel cyl. walls wear on the chromed ringed steel cyl. The cyl. heads and valves/seats/ guides are what failed most often, but that was mostly in the chromed 2nd run cylinders. The factory steel cylinders in a properly set-up and operated engine on the norm, went to TBO. All my experience is in Alaska, in the summer temps are high 70's low 80's. Winters are cold, +20F to -40F most people(that had any sense) shut down past -40F. So in my opinion the chrome/nickel is only good for the extreme conditions of High RPM'S/temps, not exactly what your cub engine is doing(I hope) and remember the steel rings(and every other steel part) will corrode in a nickel cyl. if you let it sit. The Malibu/ LancairIV don't exactly represent the NORM now do they.
Nanook
Sorry to have gotten off the O-360 and into the Big Bore discussion, your right, they are different animals. Since I am lucky enough to also have a Lancair IV, it would be nice to have a cylinder that would go the distance in that engine. If the Nickel's can do it in a TSIO-550, they should be very trouble free in an O-360. My experience with Continental Factory Cylinders (we won't even go to Cranks) has not been good, so if someone is building a better mouse trap I'd like to hear about it. Life should be a learning experience...Right? The best thing about this forum is the diverse knowledge available here.
Frank
Here Here!The best thing about this forum is the diverse knowledge available here.
I swear I have learned as much here at SC.O as at the A&P school I attend. I have definitely gotten a better picture of "How Things Really Work" here.
Thanks all for the education. Haven't posted much 'cuz I don't know much... Yet. That's changing.
Not to further the argument, but here is info regarding balancing. Whether you like ECI or not, their site is very informative.
SB
http://www.eci2fly.com/Tech_Ref/Dyna...ancing/dyn.htm
argument! what argument?
I talked to a engine guy last week and he said the same thing about Milleniums. I did a comp test yesterday on a set of straight bore Lycoming cyinders on a 160 cub and they were 76/78/78/80. 3200 TTSN in 1967. At 2000 hours they were rehoned with new rings, pistons and exhaust valves and guides. Original intake valves and guides. Standard steel non nitrided cylinders.Lycoming cylinders are just fine through first run, expect them to crack after that.
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