Rercreation hanger size

[pa19guy]

Hello cub worshippers,

I am in the design stage for a private stand alone hanger and need input for some dimensions if you would be so kind. Its mine.
It will be on a strip, no water access so float changes are out therefore I can shorten interior height dimension down. What height do you all recommend? How about 10'? 12' is easy as is 14' but I would prefer staying on the shorter side. with a shorter height more light fixtures will be required to get the lumens spread out, thats acceptable.
Hydronic (water) heat in the concrete slab with hydronic unit heaters for supplemental heat so no clearance issues for direct fired appliances needing X feet above the highest wing involved.
40 foot door width too tight?
If I have interior dimensions of 50 across the front and 50 deep can I get in three cubs? I do have two friends. Would a different size say 40 X 60 with the door on the 60 side be better?
I thank you for your input on this.

Chris

[cubdrvr]

Chris........my hangar is 50X40 with a 46 ft. door. I have never tried 3 cubs, but I have had 3 in occasionally ( one has to be a low wing). I built it for 2 with plenty of room to work. My door opening is just over 11 1/2 and that will accomodate a Baron or 310.......I wouldn't go any lower cuz you never know when you may need it. 40 ft. door is minimal......bigger door aids in maneuvering a/c before you get inside. Before I built mine I cut the hangar size and the 2 airplanes I wanted to store to scale out of cardstock. It helped to see how the fit would be. Remember too that you'll probably want to build a workbench or storage bins, etc somewhere and that takes away some space.

[CaptFox]

Chris,

I'd have to agree with cubdrvr, Dont limit yourself too much on height or width if you dont have too, You never know when you might want or need to put something else in it in the future. Even though the width of the door might be adequate for one plane when you have 2 in already the extra width might be an asset when positioning the third.

I recently saw a hangar which I believe was about 60 X 120 and it had 3 doors on it one on the 60' side about a 50' door, and 2 40' dors staggered on opposite long sides, I thought this was a great Idea. Something to consider? other than a significant cost increase!

Good luck in your decision.

[kase]

I was in a 50X50 and we had three aircraft in it. Champ, J3, and a PA18. At one time we had a Champ, C182, PA18.

[Bill Rusk]

Chris,

I have a 50x50 hangar with a 46x12 door. I recently had a PA-12, J-3 and a C-170 in it along with tools, another project and it has a bathroom. It will work. Put the largest door you can on it, as it does make it easier to get planes in and out and will also make a difference during resale in the event you have to go that way. You will also find that having a small stub wall on the door side will add greatly to the structural integrity of the building, thus I would not recommend you put a 50 foot door on a 50 foot building unless it was a steel structure.
I would also not go lower than 12 feet for a bunch of reasons. You can put in a lot of florescent lights for the cost of 1 metal halide unit, so you might consider that also. If the walls and interior are white that reflects the light and will make it easier to get the illumination intensity you're looking for.
I would also make it wider than deep in all cases as it works better for getting the most planes in and ease of doing so, thus if you go 60x50 put the door on the 60 foot wall and again go for the biggest door possible. Look at the HI-fold doors as they require the least headroom to get the clear space or door open height. Just my opinion, and I'm sure others will have differing ideas. Good luck.

Bill

[homercub180]

My hanger is 60x42 and I have a pa-18, c-180 and a boat in it but it would easily handle a third airplane if the boat was not there. The door is 44x12 and I wouldn't want it any smaller. If you have the option think of how you position the hanger, I messed up and positioned it poorly. If I did it again I would have the door positioned so that when I pulled a plane out I would turn the plane 90 degrees, start up and taxi away. Now I have to push out on the taxiway to avoid prop blast on the door and hanger. Dave

[pa19guy]

Sincerely appreciate the input.
I tried to find a bunch of dimensions for planes but was unable to locate tail feather sizes.....I planned on cutting out scaled planes. Much prefer real input from real people who use them.
The door in the 60" side as big as I can afford, probably be 40' or 45' in depth, 90 degrees to taxi away. Doing that my lovely bride can dress up the exposed side with her touches, exterior only. Yes bathroom and shelves are necessities.

I will look into the HI-Fold doors to see headroom required for the door in the raised position. This will determine interior height but looks like 14' interior finished ceiling height would give at least a 12 entry height, The header to hang the door from will be a parapet wall, actually a big beam, above the roof to maximize height for entry and I will go after every inch I can get.

Chris

[Cub Kid]

Chris,

Remember that here in Alaska, any additional hieght in your hangar, and in your hangar door, equals increased cost in heating. I checked the dimensions on a 206 and the tail is listed at 9.6 feet tall. A 185 is 7.4 therabouts. I would not imagine that any of your buddies have any taller planes than the 206, but it is good to have the capability if you want to rent out the space or loan space or whatever. I would personally say 12 of clearance is plenty, but that is just my thoughts and they are not worth much.

Bill

[FlipFlop]

Problem is planning ahead, never know what you might buy... Takes a 13' minimum height door to clear a P-51 prop when it's in the X position...

[Bill Rusk]

Chris

My interior ceiling is about 12'6" and the door is 12' clear. The Hi-Fold doors only need 4 to 6 inches of header as opposed to most other doors that require about 3 feet. Interior volume is a huge factor on heating costs, so if you are able to keep the ceiling lower that will help with the heating costs. I flush mounted my lighting to keep from loosing height.
I recommend the forced air furnace. Its cheap and efficient. The tubes(radiant heat) are OK if you are directly under it but you can definitely feel the temp drop as you walk away. People say it heats the tools and stuff...NOT...If the hangar temp is 50 degrees so is everything in the hangar ( assuming it is or has been that temp for awhile). In floor heat is great but pricy. I was quoted a min of 8k to do my 2500sq ft hangar, figured the real cost at close to 10K. Got the furnace installed for 900 bucks.
Hope this helps.

Bill

[Steve Pierce]

My hanger door is 14'x50' on an 80' wall. 16' tall side walls. Stearman can come thru the door but the ceiling is too high. Makes for great storage above the office, shop and paint booth though. Plus my brother lives in an apartment over the shop.

[irishfield]

Chris, my hanger is 50' x 100' and of course still not big enough and I'm always moving something out to get something in!! I have a 40' Bi-Fold door on BOTH of the 50' ends, and they give a full 16 foot clearance to the eve (for days when you want to drive an excavator in for servicing or have a Marine Container on the dollies dropped off for loading and shipping of an airplane). If I could do it all over again I would have built 60' wide by 100 (or longer). Not only will the 60' give you room for a 50' door for more wing tip clearance (example an extended wing C185 won't come straight through a 40' door and has to be coaxed by bringing a wing tip in on an angle to get a wing and the fuselage past the door line and then turned around tightly to get the other wing in the door). The other BIG PLUS of having a 60' wide hanger is that you can nose a taildragger against the wall by the door and move the one that was behind it out the door without removing the "blocking" aircraft. With a 50' wide hanger you have to take the blocker outside to get the blocked airplane out. I don't heat my hanger so interior height isn't much of an issue and one door faces directly south for a little imaginary warmth from the sun for working in the winter. Also if I turn on all 16 high output vapour lights it takes the chill out of the hanger... considering they spin the hydro meter to the equivalent of a 16kw heater being turned on. I have a separate heated 10' ceiling x 30' x 60' workshop and I try to schedule my parts building to be done for spring.. to assembly into an airplane in the hanger during the warmer months!

Decide what you really need and then build as big as what you can afford, as there is never enough room not matter how big you go!!

Cheers,
Wayne

[RPURCELL]

I would give thought to installing a radiant floor heat system. They can use an anti-freeze solution so freeze up is not a threat if for some reason the hanger freezes. You can maintain a lower heat, save money and be just as comfortable. If you only want to heat the hanger when you are going to work in it, then it may not be the best choice. Radiant slab heat works best for maintaining a constant temperature since it takes a long time to raise or lower the temperature because the slab is a hugh thermal mass. I use a heated slab in my shop and would certainly use in any hanger I might build in the future. Just wish I could have a hanger!

[Frank T]

Our farm in South Dakota has an 80x100 shop with 18' sidewalls and Radiant Infloor Heat using Propane for fuel. We budget an average of $12 per day for heating over the winter. We keep the shop at 58 and the offices at 70-72. Even at 58 the shop is very comfortable. Nicest thing is no cold drafts at the floor level.

[CaptFox]

Just a suggestion depending on your heating needs, What about a combination of Floor radient supplimented with a forced air heater, The floor can maintain the heat at a low level or higher as needed and if the hangar has been opened and needs heating more rapidly due to the inrush of cold air or increasing the tempurature for other projects inside you can crank on the additional heat. You'd have the best of both worlds.

[wilbur]

I did the same the same as Cubdrvr with the scale airplanes and hanger on paper. 44' door was not necessary but did it for added ease (and my poor eyesight), it opens to 11 1/2'. If you can get an aircraft bluebook, they show the size of length, width, and hiegth of almost all the airplanes. Money is always a factor, but I've always said that the building is too small as soon as the last nail is driven.
I heat a 3600 sq ft portion of my shop at home with a 60.000 btu boiler and floor heat (with 3 - 12 X 12 OH doors). As R Purcell mentioned, it works because I keep it heated all winter. 135 tons of concrete does not go up and down in temp very fast. 45 deg. to 70 deg (for painting) took the last two days. But at 10 deg in january, you can open all the doors for 15 min., close them, and the temp doesn't drop a degree. I put the system in myself back in 85'. 1" pipe was $300, used boiler, pump and expansion tank was another $600.
On the other hand, my first 50 X 50 hanger got a 75,000 btu hot water heater, pump expansion tank, and 3200' of 1/2 hose. That was an Infloor system, and I spent $3600. It wasn't ideal, because I kept it at 50 deg all winter, and if you got a short notice group of beer drinkers together, or just decided you were headed to the hanger on short notice, you didn't get the temp to 65 deg for 5 hrs. Capt Fox's idea wouldv'e worked best in that situation. Didn't have the cash or time to put that system in my present hanger. As Bill Rusk said, if you hire it installed, it's pricey. I'm already regreting not putting it in with a back up modine. Heated floors are the best.
As far as heat cost, regardless of what you have, furnace efficiency and insulation are the biggest factors. Btu's either got out the chimney, or through the walls and ceiling. Insulate well, seal it up tight with plastic, foam, and caulk. Puchase an efficient heat source.
Also, just as with building any building, try to imagine any future use or porpose, and what the average future buyer would look for in a hanger. Doors on the gable end will allow a lower ceiling and still keep the door heigth. Not a necessity, but I put in a 12 OH door (it's a heat loser) in case a future owner wanted to store a motor home. (Some people frame in the door and sheet over it).
Lighting - I put 20 high output 2 bulb 8' flourescent's in, first month's bill was $120. My shop runs $175 (4500sq.ft.). Wish I'd gone with the low profile (5" drop) metal halide.
Sorry for the long post.
Wilbur

[homercub180]

I forgot to mention that if you are making scale models to move around in the hanger space you need to know what type of building you will use Because, the large steel beems of a steel building go way into the usable space of the building. Watch out for them. Dave

[Aviator]

"Luxury" hangars with spacious, well-equipped shops are a real joy to work in. For some operations, they're a must. But where do you draw the line? What's the minimum; and what's the overkill? The chief-wrench up in Thule lamented his B-52 hangars were too small (!) though you could probably do a few tuch-and-go's in them with a SC. Conversely, some guys rebuild entire projects in T-hangars. If you're going to use your hangar for "recreation," then a good place to start is to look for "recreational need." Then, don't compromise on that need, but keep off the slippery slope of "I want." After all, your hangar ought to serve you, not the other way around.

And, it's pointless to seek perfection. No matter what you build, it will have its downside. I opted for adequacy: 40W x 30D x 10H, unheated, manual sliding doors. It's enough for one cub, a small shop I can heat, and a bit of storage space.



S.F.
Nick

[StewartB]

Hangar? What's a hangar? I can't even fit a car in my garage!
SB

[Aviator]

Hangar? What's a hangar? I can't even fit a car in my garage!
SB

You have a garage?



Nick

[R. JOHNSON]

WE HAVE A 50' X 48' THAT IS HOME TO A SKYBOLT, J-3, T-CRAFT, PA-11, AND A VOLKSPLANE...THE SKYBOLT AND CUB ARE THE ONLY TWO FLYING, BUT WE HOPE TO HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FOR THE 11 WHEN IT IS FINISHED.

RYAN

[scubber]

I'll put in my 3 cents worth. Since 64' we been pushing the cub in and out of 3 different hangars on the farm. All now have 40' doors. The one that had a 38' door was changed in time to 40'. (A Cherokee, etc., can go less than 40') I agree with several previous posts. Seems 40' is the minimum for "piece of mind". And with less . . sooner or latter it gets expensive (sooner with your renters help) . . you get to touch-up fabric, wing tip bows and "update" the lenses in your navagation lites. If you and your renters are the patient sort . .and never in a hurry . . .3 normal size planes in a 50' x 50' will work. But . . visit someone that is using all 3 planes and see if you trust your renters to "jocky" the same way you will. The other guys paint always looks better on his plane . . . and not on yours. (Been there . . . done that). In short . .go as big as you can afford. Good Luck. WOW. A real hangar and not a converted barn or farm shed.

[LANDSHORT]

Chris, I started with a 48 by 36, then added on another 40 by 36. The moral to this story is build the hangar as big as you can afford and consider a plan that would allow you to add on down the road.

Door opening as big as your engineering/code will allow for the building in your area. Height of door opening at least 11 feet to fit a twin and inside ceiling at least 12 feet so you can raise a retractable plane high enough to swing the gear at annual. As the others stated, ya never know what you'll own down the road in terms of rolling stock and a hangar is never big enough!

Scott

[av8ron]

Chris, I am guessing that there is no budget. If there isn't, than build as big as you can. Just like any garage there is never enough room. I have built several hangers in the valley and there a couple of things that I recommend; one, is in floor heat like you have already mentioned and two is the door, forty foot is minimum. If you go with a boiler you wont have any problem heating up quickly. The recovery time is slower with a water heater.
The break even point with steel vs wood is about sixty feet wide. less than sixty it is cheeper to go with wood frame construction.

The average finished cost is about $41.00 -$45.00 per sq ft in the valley.

Ron

[Cub Kid]

Chris, don't forget to make it all crappy looking, so taxes don't kill you

[RedEye]

Chris,
The saying goes "if you build it they will come"! You say you have 2 friends with planes, probably more once the hanger is built. Go as big as your budget (or wife) will allow. 12 ft minmum side walls, insulate & finish inside with white sheeting (steel or wood). 40 ft minimum door width (42 better yet) & if feasable one on each end of the hanger. Doors should go on the gable ends of the hanger of course. 48 X 48 will work for three cub type planes with a minimum of extra space. I always put my plane in 1st, would rather move theirs to get mine out, than them move mine to get theirs out. (doors on each end would help). The other saying goes "the bigger the better", but we wont go there !

[SJ]

You guys are making me GREEN with ENVY. I wish I had a place to build a nice hangar to hang out in at a nice grass strip that would not "go away" (preferably within 15 minutes of home...)

Here is a picture Wilbur sent me of the inside of his hangar. The pictures don't really do it justice, it is a IDEAL setup from my perspective.



I have a ratty T-hangar at a convienient airport, which would make a payment on a small hangar and land easily. But I am lucky to have it.

sj

[S2D]

Wow!! Wilbur I'm almost jealous. Here I went and spent my extra dough on another junker to cram in my old dilapitated shed. Looks great. What did you use for sealer on the floor? After years of working in a Dark Cave, I finally painted my floor white and it made a huge difference on lighting. But now two years later, I'm paying the price-- chipping and peeling and takes forever to mop and keep clean.

[SuperCub MD]

If you are building new, I would concider putting the tubing in the slab when it is poured, even if you are not going to hook it up right away. That way you have the option to add floor heat someday. If you are going to work in the hanger, floor heat is wonderful. And as a really big bonus, keeps moisture and humidity down, which helps the planes.

Also consider building the bathroom, office, workshop, or whatever lean-to style on the side. One wrongly placed small bathroom or closet in the corner of a hanger can keep you from getting another full airplane inside. Then you can heat this area higher than the storage hanger to save $. Insulation is everything. I put 6" on the shop walls, and 12" in the ceiling with good vapor barriers, and it makes a huge difference. In this area of the country, it's always best to face the big door South or South East if possible.

[StewartB]

Chris,
I just re-read your original post. You have two friends?
SB

[SuperCub MD]

Chris,
I just re-read your original post. You have two friends?
SB

If you have room in a hanger, barn, or shed, you will always have friends. When they call, it is always the same conversation...."Hey, just got a smokin deal on a (plane, boat, snowmobile, motorcycle, atv, etc.) that I couldn't pass up, and I need a place to hide it from the wife....." Always make sure the storage arangements of such thinks includes full, unlimited use of them. And be choosey, make sure your "friends" only buy the highest quality toys for you to use. Just make sure you don't have to many spare bedrooms, or you may get the eventual follow up call...."Hey, the wife found out about the (plane, boat, snowmobile, motorcycle, atv, etc.), and I need a place to stay..."

[SJ]

HA! Good one, Boz!

sj

[StewartB]

I should have also added that the size of an Alaskan hangar is limited by the available sizes of blue poly tarps, otherwise known as "roofing." This goes along with the Tyvek siding that is so popular here. We have our priorities straight. There's nothing like a Tyvek hangar with a nice airplane inside. And a run-down camper for the pilot. Chris knows what I meant. He was being humble. He may have as many as three friends.
SB

[Cub Kid]

SB,

THREE friends??? no one has that many!!! Just one or two will get you in enough trouble

[SuperCub MD]

A old friend will be putting a nice new 16' Alumacraft in the barn tomarrow. I just wish sj lived a little closer, I'd probably be out playing with a nice new Top Cub right now if he did. A nice big hangar can be a great asset if you play it right.

[S2D]

, BUT WE HOPE TO HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FOR THE 11 WHEN IT IS FINISHED.

RYAN

You could always stick the Cubs on their nose and shove them in the back if your ceiling is high enough. Does anybody still do that? I remember seeing lots of them that way years ago.

[FlipFlop]

, BUT WE HOPE TO HAVE ENOUGH ROOM FOR THE 11 WHEN IT IS FINISHED.

RYAN

You could always stick the Cubs on their nose and shove them in the back if your ceiling is high enough. Does anybody still do that? I remember seeing lots of them that way years ago.

About 10 or 15 years ago I saw an ad for a nose dolly like it was a new idea... When I was a kid, we used to fly up to the Sacramento Sky Ranch airport (long gone) and they stuffed their Champs in the hangar on their noses...

[R. JOHNSON]

About 6 months ago my brother flew down to Wag Aero in Lyons Wi where they have a strip and some hangars out back and the green and yellow sport trainer they used to use for advertizement was on it's nose in the hangar.

[CaptFox]

OK, Dumb question?

How do you go about parking a Supercub on its nose in a hangar? Any pictures as it would be interesting to see!

[R. JOHNSON]

I do have a pic of the sport trainer on it's nose, but I can't post it from home, I will try to tomorrow at work. I think this used to be a common practice especially for flight schools and Cub dealers way back when.

Ryan