Weight and balance chart for PA-18

[murph]

Does anyone have a weight and balance chart for a PA-18?

Cody has to figure W&B for our Cub and we don't have a chart.

Thanks,
murph

[SJ]

Murph,

Should be in your POH. You need one of those to be legal as well as the following:

Airworthiness Certificate
Registration
Operating Manual
Weight and Balance

Don't forget the compass correction card!

sj

[T.J.]

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[T.J.]

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[supercub]

Murph,

Should be in your POH. You need one of those to be legal as well as the following:

Airworthiness Certificate
Registration
Operating Manual........... operating limitations can be in the form of placards and markings and/or an FAA approved airplane manual. 91.9
Weight and Balance

Don't forget the compass correction card!

sj

[PA12driver]

Been through all of that before with the FEDS! Some have not been around long enough to know/ or care about "old planes". There is definetly a difference between and POH, Operating Manual, and as was in my PA12 "an Owners Manual". Placards will suffice! The challenge is that some STC's were written to include an 'supliment' to the POH or Operating manual.

I found it best to either "copy" one from a newer cub or make your paperwork look really "tidy" and you will do just fine on Ramp check, Check ride or Annual.

Sorry, guys but this has been run around for years and it would really be nice if the FAA would send out a circular to the AP/IA's and to All Flight instructors, designees and also to the NTSOB's.

Tim

[FlipFlop]

There is definetly a difference between and POH, Operating Manual, and as was in my PA12 "an Owners Manual". Placards will suffice! The challenge is that some STC's were written to include an 'supliment' to the POH or Operating manual.Tim

This is from TC A-780 (PA-12)...

401.
One of the following CAA (FAA) Approved Airplane Flight Manuals revised to include any statement required under "Propellers and Propeller Accessories" and/or Item 103, if applicable.
(a)
Airplane Flight Manual dated March 24, 1947, or Piper Report No. 551 dated March 24, 1947 - includes Propeller Item 1 propeller and O-235-C engine.
(b)
Piper Report No. 570 dated April 15, 1947, includes Propeller Item 3 and O-235-C engine.
(c)
Piper Report No. 565 dated June 13, 1947, includes Propeller Item 1 and Item 103.
(d)
Piper Report No. 571 dated June 13, 1947, includes Propeller Item 3 and Item 103.
(e)
Edo Report No. 2342 dated April 10, 1947, revised January 11, 1949, includes Propeller Item 1, O-235-C engine and Item 204.
*(f)
Supplement to Flight manual dated April 20, 1955 (Required with Item 403 Ross Control System).

[FlipFlop]

This is from TC 1A2 ( PA-18 )...

401. (a) CAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual approved April 1, 1949, revised December 21,
1949, for landplanes and skiplanes equipped with Continental C-90-12 engine.
(b) CAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual approved August 15, 1949, revised December
21, 1949, for landplanes and skiplanes equipped with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine.
(c) CAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual approved May 9, 1950, for seaplanes equipped
with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine.
(d) CAA Approved Supplement to Airplane Flight Manual for Crop Sprayers.
(e) CAA Approved Supplement to Airplane Flight Manual for Crop Dusters.
(f) CAA Approved Flight Manual approved October 20, 1950, for landplane equipped with
Lycoming O-290-D engine.
(g) CAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual approved October 12, 1950, for seaplanes
equipped with Lycoming O-290-D engine and Edo model 92-1400 floats.
(h) CAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual approved December 9, 1950, for seaplanes
equipped with Continental C90 engine.
(i) CAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual approved March 15, 1951, for seaplanes
equipped with Lycoming O-235-C engine.
(j) CAA Approved Supplement, dated March 15, 1951, to Airplane Flight Manual 401(a)
for landplanes and skiplanes equipped with Lycoming O-235-C engine.
(k) CAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual Skiplane Supplement dated August 20, 1951.
(l) DMCR Approved Airplane Flight Manual dated April 25, 1952, for landplane or
skiplane equipped with Lycoming O-290-D2 engine.
(m) DMCR Approved Airplane Flight Manual approved May 15, 1952, for seaplanes
equipped with Lycoming O-290-D2 engine and Edo Model 92-1400 floats.
(n) DMCR Approved Flight Manual approved November 24, 1952, for landplanes equipped
with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine. Required with Model PA-18"105" (Special).
(o) DMCR Approved Airplane Flight Manual approved April 1, 1953, for seaplanes
equipped with Lycoming O-290-D2 engine and Edo Model 89-2000 floats.
(p) DMCR Approved Flight Manual approved July 1, 1953, for seaplanes equipped with
Lycoming O-290-D engine and Edo Model 89-2000 floats.
(q) DMCR Approved Flight Manual approved October 1, 1954, revised July 15, 1982
for landplanes or skiplanes equipped with Lycoming O-320 engine.
(r) DMCR Approved Flight Manual approved October 1, 1954, for seaplanes equipped with
Lycoming O-320 engine and Edo Model 89-2000 floats
(s) FAA Approved Flight Manual VB-1382 dated March 24, 1989.

[klm_ak]

Cuby,

An amusing thought, if a PA-12 were built in say February of 1947, would it require a "flight manual".

Mine was "built" in May of 1947 and in fact it does have a "flight manual" it is a single sheet of card stock about 5"x8".


My factory original 1947 weight and balance card has hand written on it's list of installed equipment

401(a) Flight Manual.

Apparently too soon after the publishing of the flight manual to have had an updated printing of the weight and balance pamphlet.

If anyone out there has a 1947 vintage copy of the type certificate for a PA-12 I'd sure like to have a copy, the oldest one I've been able to find is a 1955 version.

KLM

[FlipFlop]

Cuby,

An amusing thought, if a PA-12 were built in say February of 1947, would it require a "flight manual".

KLM

Just guessing here, but I'd guess yes... Generally speaking, older Flight Manuals (cards) did not have a revision date, but a reissuance date... So a Febuary Flight Manual would have a March date when it was revised...

[BritishCubBloke]

If you don't find one, PM me a fax number and I'll fax it to you.

David

[Lawn Dart]

Murph
You don't happen to mean the weight and balance chart that's in the Type Certificate section of our very own "Woe & Intrigue"...do you?

http://www.supercub.org/woe/pa18type.pdf

[T.J.]

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[PA12driver]

Cuby, Ok on the 47 but mine is a 46 and has no "flight manual". I am understanding it originally came with an "owners handbook".????

Soooooo What about the suppliments for the STC's, how can they supliment a manual that does not exist?

Tim

[klm_ak]

Tim,
Do you actually have an original "owner's handbook" for the PA-12?

I have a photo copy of the approximately 13 page book (undated) which might pass for one, and I have a photo copy of the Piper report 551 dated March 1947 (which has identical information to my original 5x8 operating limitation card), but I am still curious what really came with the earlier models.

And T.J. I think you're right about not many supplements making it into the planes, but I'm a stickler for FAA/Insurance correctness so mine does have all of the existing mods. Next month though, I'm going to have to start carrying some 8-1/2 x 11 sheets with the new STC's going in.

Reading the 1953 copy of the type certificate for the 12, I found an interesting line I hadn't read before, the top line says Model PA-12; 3PCLM (Normal Category), 2PCLM (Utility Category); Approved March 24, 1947.

Maybe before 3/24/47 they weren't approved? Maybe you're already in experimental category Tim.

By 1953 they were up to revision 7 of the TC, in 2001 they made revision 13 when the Holder changed.

KLM

[PA12driver]

Andy,

My books are not here? They are in the plane (getting a new fangled Microaire transponder installed) When I get it back I will dig into the "facts" of what I have, (I think what I have is a copy as well)

Tim (I like the Idea of being expermental already!!) I am ready to tear the wings off and start welding! Naw, then I wouldn't be able to get it back together in time to come up North in June!

[T.J.]

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[FlipFlop]

You may not want that!

Why not?...

[T.J.]

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[FlipFlop]

Cuby:
Depending on how zealous the faa guy is, he can probably find something wrong in the logbooks. If wants to go all the way back too the day it was made, he will find radios installed which weren't removed, floats installed and its on wheels, mistakes made in updating times, Mods made and not recorded in Okie City, etc. When I do an Annual on a new plane, I do a conformity inspection. I get the CD from Okie City and compare all recorded info with logbook info and whats actually on the plane. You would be surprised at what I find. This does not make the plane unairworthy mechanical wise, but it is unairworthy paperwork wise.

T.J....

I have to commend you, not all IAs take the time to do it right... The CD from registry is an invaluable tool in performing maintenance on an aircraft... It gives you all the history from when it was hatched to the current date... If the FAA were to file a violation involving paperwork, the first thing they would do is order the CD...

[T.J.]

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[T.J.]

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[FlipFlop]

One of these days, if and when I grow up, I think I might be an airplane mechanic. I'm getting better at reading this faa stuff. For example, from Inspectors handbook, 8300.10 , Chap. 27. 5, H,(1), (2), Major Records and Major Alteration Records, Major repairs are only required to be retained for 1 year but Major Alterations must be retained forever. I remember reading that a long time ago but, I forgot it. It may come in handy some day.

Thanx T.J.... It wouldn't hurt any of us to review 91.417 again...

Sec. 91.417 - Maintenance records.

(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include --

(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed; and

(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and

(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.

(2) Records containing the following information:

(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.

(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.

(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a specified time basis.

(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft, including the time since the last inspection required by the inspection program under which the aircraft and its appliances are maintained.

(v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD number, and revision date. If the AD involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.

(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by §43.9(a) of this chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and appliances.

(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:

(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.

(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or operator under §43.11 of this chapter shall be retained until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved for return to service.

(c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition, the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of any law enforcement officer.

(d) When a fuel tank is installed within the passenger compartment or a baggage compartment pursuant to part 43 of this chapter, a copy of FAA Form 337 shall be kept on board the modified aircraft by the owner or operator.

BTW, 91.411 and 91.413 that are referenced in the first paragraph are the pitot and transponder test requirements...

[FlipFlop]

Cuby:They will argue with you for hours on the meaning of "may", "should", and "must."

T.J....

Is that like, I may think I have a life, I probably should have a life and I really must get a life?... Or is it more like, I may go to work, I probably should get to work and I really must have my SC.org fix, the heck with work!...

[Frank T]

Can anyone tell me what Arm location is used for the 20# extended baggage mod on the PA-18. I need them for both the upper and lower.

Thanks in advance Guys.

[T.J.]

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