OK, OK, enough with the pig jokes already!... I resemble that remark!...Originally Posted by PA12driver
OK, OK, enough with the pig jokes already!... I resemble that remark!...
flintcap........I don't know you..your aviation experience or background,nor do you know mine.But,I will say this much....could you please tell me how 1/2 a million fellow aviators are members of a well respected organization that is headed by a "clown".Funny I don't remember him with a big red ball nose and dedicating his life to making people laugh.The truth is this:every organization,whether paid or volunteer usually has some bad apples.But for you to slam AOPA and it's pres.without supporting your views is a cop out!!At least the folks here who have given their opinion of the CAP have given their reasons why.As for me, I have no exp.with the CAP so I don't give drivel about thngs I don't know about.However...I have been a member of AOPA since the 80's and have seen the results of a well organized group who really Care about gen.aviation.If you disagree,thats your right.But let me ask you this: are you a watch dog/advocate for your local airport,are you a mentor for any young people interested in aviation,were you in touch with anyone in congress when mayor Daley ripped up Meigs or taken any cities to court because they were implementing curfews,rules etc.which violated the FAA rules,mandates etc. and on and on.I think you get the picture...well maybe not if you dislike the AOPA crowd so much! Well I have said my piece....agree or disagree,the facts are facts.There is no organization which tries to do what is best for all of us as a whole,than AOPA....Yes they may have some short comings.But to characterize it's pres.as a clown is a JOKE in itself.But hey....if you can do better, step right up Sparky. Herman in Brenham.
Both my Wife (Iron Inge) and I are members. I was even a Cadet back in early 70s. We are both former active duty and mil reservist vets.
That said, it is true we have both talked about all that is wrong with CAP.
It is true that we have spent more time in meetings (do nothing) than doing anything meaningful. But sometimes things are accomplished and big ships start their journey with a little push.
Our local squadron has not done much lately (well we did look for a downed 185 last year) but a couple of our guys did save some stranded snow machineries a couple years back by violating CAP regs and throwing out sleeping bags and supplies during low passes.
That saved the snow machiners until a ground crew could reach them the next day.
Nobody was given credit, the survival gear, jackets and sleeping bags were never returned. (by the way, nobody said anything about violating the regs)
So, I could snivel about what is wrong, and about all of the deadwood holding the organization back.
OR, I can stick with it and try to make it better.
Last year I was in North Las Vegas for a couple of months. One night I saw about 80 CAP cadet kids out drilling at the North Vegas field. They were competing for glider time.
(Gliders can be flown at an earlier age (14) thus making them valuable for flight training, the Air Force female A-10 pilot who flew her Warthog back all shot full of holes started out as a CAP cadet in gliders)
The VOLUNTEER CAP folks were out there for hours instead of sitting at home.
So will you end up with 80 new pilots one day? Probably not. But you might get 20 and the rest will probably be good adults.
Funds ill spent? I think not!
Hopefully we can jump start our local cadet program again and generate more interest in aviation.
Sometimes the blessing of being able to fly, is not always found in the cockpit.
Alex Clark
Navy 77-83, Alaska Army Guard 90-93, Alaska Air Guard 93 to present.
Retired Law Dog, CFI, Member CAP squadron 010.
This statement says more about the poor attitude and mentality of CAP members like flintcap than anyone else has written in this thread so far...... NO supporting arguments are given for this assertion. Indeed, besides leading a valiant fight for our freedom and right to fly, the AOPA president has worked tirelessly to make it the #1 promoter of aviation safety via the Air Safety Foundation with its free seminars, among other things.
Ditto.......
"Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
Flintcap,
Pretty bold of you to charge into the AO spraying fire all around without so much as an introduction, sir. You must have a commission, you know, one of those things that lets you wear shiny bits of metal on your collar and your pay grade designation starts with a zero as in O-1, O-2 etc. If you have one of those commission thingies it gives you the right to do anything you want anytime and anywhere - and you've clearly demonstrated that you know how to do that so we'll assume you have a commission.
In my humble experience as an NCO sir, (we call all persons with commission thingies "sir" because its protocol), its never a good idea to call up artillery and airstrikes before you get an idea of the terrain and locate the bad guy's positions. Sir, blind strikes like that can lead to friendly fire casualties and unnecessary collateral damage. Best avoided.
Perhaps you'd like to introduce yourself, sir, so we can give you a proper area briefing and sitrep. If you lack the intestinal fortitude to introduce yourself, or should I say, if your commissioned weenie CAP azz ain't got the balls to own up to who you are,...sir,...then the US Marine you'll want to prefer insubordination charges against is:
Gunnery Sergeant George D. Goundry, USMCR
aka "Gunny" at supercub.org
address provided upon request or better yet, pay $10 and look it up in the members section.
PS: The "Tailwinds" part of my signature block is automatic. In your case I hope its a cyclone right up your 6!!
Stand your ground, don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war let it begin here. - Capt. John Parker, Lexington April 19, 1775.
Gunny
First,
Cuby, I am sorry I made reference to you
to "Bugsmasher", great job in writing your post! funny it reminds me of my experience with the wing up in Birchwood AK after the "real CAP" commanders took over from those that were actually accomplishing the mission????
I won't keep this going because I know that there are some good wings left and for sure some dedicated members at all ranks that are there still trying to "make it work". PLEASE, PLEASE folks just don't put yourself and or your kids at risk by flying with those that are incompetient. (spelling)?
I must say that I "quit" trying when the "head check pilot" nearly got me killed during "my checkride" in the Wings Beaver, when to find out that he had only minimal time in it compared to my several thousand hours of experience! Don't be fooled by their rank!
Tim
PS: this is thread is getting a lot of attention and "Diggler" has even posted????
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Does the CAP have any authority to "ground" any FAA licensed pilot? I never heard that before.
Mike
No.
e?"
Now we're talkn'
Good one Gunny
So guys we all fly Super Cubs, we are a growing organization and we have great airplanes...Why don't we start our own S&R organization?
Super Cubs unite!
We can all ban together and if there is an incident or assistance needed say a couple of hundred miles from where we are based. We may be able to contact local authorities and volunteer our planes our piloting skills and our comraderie of many years of knowing what in the Hell we are doing..
Just fodder and another 2 cents from me...
Sam
"They tout The Joy of Sex, but it don't last like The Fun of Flying."
Lucille Benson
We actually did something like that in the Anchorage area and were threatened with certificate action for impeding an offical search effort and were ordered out of the 10,000square mile area by the Airforce, FAA and CAP. go figure!
Tim
Ouch Tim,
That is just what I want, a bunch of bureaucrats out looking for me! Actually out in Nome, we have a very good search & rescue. Troopers generally coordinate, and volunteers (mainly the volunteer fire dept) go out any way they can, usually with snowmachines or planes or boats etc. A lot of the air taxi guys go out of their way to look too, and have found several people. Those volunteers to a great job!!!!
Bill
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I feel that what you described is a normal CAP mission with the non-distress beacon in mind. We are activated by?. You won?t believe the timing my pager just went off for a CAP ELT mission, and guess what; they aren?t launching now, they are staging crews for the morning, we used to routinely fly ELT missions at night, you don?t need light for them? Well back to what I was saying, we are activated by satellite, the satellite uses a Doppler shift on the signal to get an approximate location (advertised to be a six mile radius, which would leave a 113 mile search area, but the accuracy can be as bad as a 60 miles which leaves a 11,300 square mile search area). CAP pilots are usually ordered to take off fly to the ?merge? as the indicated position is called, and then see if they hear anything. When they acquire the signal we have DF equipment on board to assist us in tracking it. Now tracking it is a little more magic than science, and there are simply some that are good at this, and then there are those that aren?t so good (ok they couldn?t do it if their life depended on it, funny thing because theirs doesn?t, but mine or someone else out there?s might). Now most pilots seem to operate on the principle of pick up the signal, then land at the nearest airport and secure the beacon, but it usually takes an hour or so for them to figure out its not at that airport, and then get back in the air, and realize that a plane two miles out crashed on departure. Simply defining where the ELT is located BEFORE landing, and flying a circle ALL the way around the airport with the DF gear pointing to the airport would eliminate a lot of these, but pilots can fly 80 or so missions, and never fly a real one and fall into this trap. This is the short non-technical version, if you want to know more details let me know and I can write a little more on the topic, but my posts in this area have seemed to get big fast so I will curtail my writing at this point, but feel free to ask for more info.
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CAP IS ONE OF REASONS I AM A PILOT TODAY.
OVER 35 YEARS AGO I WAS A KID WHO COULDNT GET ENOUGH OF AIRPLANES. THE LOCAL SQUADRON HAD 2 CADETS AND A GROUP OF ADULTS WHO HAVE ENCOURAGED MY FLYING THROUGHTHE YEARS AND WERE GREAT MENTORS. I REMAIN CLOSE FRIENDS THROUGHOUT MY LIFE WITH THESE INDIVIDUALS. AS A CADET I CLIMBED ALL OVER A B52 HAVE BEEN TO SEVERAL AIR FORCE BASES AND SAW SOME REALLY NEAT STUFF. IT GAVE ME A TASTE OF MILITARY. I MET SOME GREAT PEOPLE AND SOME REAL JERKS. BUT JERKS POP UP EVERY WHERE! I AGREE SQUADRONS ARE ALL VERY DIFFERENT AS GOOD AS THE GROUP. AS AN ADULT I HAVE NOT BEEN ACTIVE AT ALL. CAP WAS A GREAT EXPIERENCE FOR ME.
TOM
Hinkle:
To put it simply as to how we tell if the beacon is a distress or not, we can?t. We can only tell when we have the thing in our hands. There is no way for us to tell if a beacon is lying out in the middle of a field with an airplane, or in the back of someone?s truck until we get there. Now it is commonly considered to not be a distress if the thing is moving (has to be lots of motion as such with an airplane, somewhere on the order of more than 60-70 miles per hour for more than three to five hours, ie. It keeps leaving the area where the prior ?merge? was by more than can be accredited to drift (the 60 mile accuracy thing I stated in a prior post)).
One of my complaints of some of the mission staff (who usually aren?t pilots), and some of the pilots who haven?t realized that airplanes ACTUALLY DO CRASH, is that they treat all ELT?s as a false alarms. One of my pet peeves is that they don?t isolate a beacon before landing (we can tell direction and not distance, so if they are flying due east, and come up on an airport, it appears to be pointing right to the airport, so they land instead of flying over the airport, and realizing its still further east). There are many techniques that can be used to ?isolate? the beacon, or determine for pretty sure what small area (less than a mile, if your good you can get it down to a row of hangers, or a block of houses, etc) it is confined to. As I said before, using the archaic DF gear we have is pretty hard, the display is a little black box that?s liberally about an inch tall by two inches long, with a little needle that swings left and right (there is some new stuff coming out, but we only have one, it makes this a lot easier, but its expensive, and were broke). There seem to be some people that are good at it, and some that just can?t do it. I haven?t figured out what makes some one good at it, it seems easy enough to me, but some people it just doesn?t click I guess, but its funny how they are still sent up on actual missions.
Then you call in your ground team that will isolate the beacon to an aircraft, and then contact the owner (if it?s a false alarm). If the aircraft (CAP) can see (during the day, not IFR, etc), and they see an aircraft down we can roll rescue before a ground team actually gets there, or if the area is generally inaccessible (such as in the Three Finger Jack search) we can dispatch Guard rescue helicopters. There was a comment before about the guard making most of the saves anyway, and I think this is why, in the CAP we don?t have any means of picking people up, so we call the guard and vector one of their helicopters onto the crash site, and then they take over the rescue.
As before, I am stopping a little short, I have a final to study for, and this is getting long once again, but as always feel free to ask questions. I will do my best to get back quickly, but I am going home to go fly the SC this afternoon, so it may be tonight before I get back to a question. Have fun and fly safe!
Gunny, great response! Beautiful!!
THCub, if CAP was so good to you, why aren't you a member today? I was a cadet also, only for a year. When I got my PPL and wanted to give something back to the aviation community, that's when I rejoined CAP. Now, since I've left CAP, I've joined the Aviation Safety Council, sponsored by our local FSDO. I figured it's better to train people to be safe pilots now than look for them later.
Anne.
Baloney is still baloney, no matter how thin you slice it.
Here it is four years later, and I've rejoined CAP. The squadron commander and flight ops officer, two people who helped run the squadron into the ground, are both gone. I went back after I started looking for a volunteer opportunity, and found out things were dramatically different. It's now a much more inclusive group, different seniors and more motivated cadets. Lots of training going on, lots of flying (for everyone), and a much better group. Now I just have to put together some uniforms and deal with the paperwork. Wish me luck!
Re-reading this post - wondering where some of our old SC.org members have gone? Names from the past bring fond memories.
Anne.
Baloney is still baloney, no matter how thin you slice it.
Good for you Anne. I to have thought of joining the CAP. Anyone have any new thoughts or insights on the Birchwood Squadron?
My experiences with the CAP have been good and not so good. I almost joined recently because the local wing or squadron or whatever it is needs pilots but decided not to because it just didn't feel right. Seemed like a lot more trouble and hassle than limited access to a cheap 182 was worth. I donated a couple of pick-up loads of aviation books and magazines not long ago and nobody even bothered to say thanks. This group has a couple of sailplanes and sponsors an encampment every summer, which gums things up at the airport a bit but we and they are pretty flexible and we seem to be able to pull it off without much ado. The kids in the local unit are a good group. I asked for volunteers in uniform to help marshal a jet bringing in one of our fallen soldiers and three showed up plus an adult. I told 'em what I wanted them to do and why and they did the best job of it I've ever seen. Nobody could have directed and parked that airplane any better. I was very proud of them. On the other hand, the rated adults seem to be less than open to perspective new members and they seem to exhibit an unearned fighter pilot mentality when flying. At least one visiting CAP pilot did some stupid and unsafe things with cadets aboard and was invited not to come back. I guess the CAP is a good thing overall, but it can be a power trip for people who don't want to otherwise pay their dues to wear a uniform and a flight suit.
I see more positive than negative especially for the young adults and kids. However I have never been a member so I don't know the B.S. side of being in it. One thing that did Erck me a bit was when a CAP group came on base and the Adult leaders demanded that we (MARINES) salute them. Being professionals that we were we pulled them aside out of view and set them straight.
Josh, How long was it before these gents were back up and around again?
Gerald
This pretty much sums it up in my opinion.
Brad
I know a chick who's grand parents were drug smugglers in the 70'S and they were busted by a CAP Cadet who thought it was suspicious that they were unloading big garbage bags from the airplane. He had seen them on several occasions and called the cops. They showed up and busted the old man. He spent many years in jail and was released in the late nineties and died recently. He and his wife both went to prison.
My son was in the CAP in Hawaii. I was very disappointed in the way it was run. Basically the same as most have said, "good ol' boys club". In the 3 years he was involved he got to go flying ONE time. Most of the time the flights were for the senior members to fly to the other Islands on "missions". LOL
Nearly his whole time in there all he got to do was drill, traffic control at events, community services, flag detail/honor guard. He also did lots of collecting recyclables for funds for the squadron. Basically it was a waste of his time. Only one's that ever flew were a select few who "owned" the planes.
I was really interested in joining and had talked to several of the cadre but after being told the chances of ever flying were slim I didn't bother.
Funny part was that the senior's kept wondering why they couldn't get cadets interested in CAP. I tried telling them that kids need to get rewarded once in awhile for working so hard. He never figured it out.
WW
Amazing the interest in this thread!!
I am in CAP. I fly orientation flights for the cadets. This is a funded flight and I enjoy sharing aviation with area youth. Of our 20 senior members, maybe 4 are flying the skyhawk currently. That number is down from 12 a year ago and about 14 2 years ago. The paper work and online computer reporting and flight releases and all the horse-crap that goes into taking a flight is just about more hassle than it's worth. I have 2 other aircraft that I fly and it takes some serious thought whether to burn an entire day flying 2-3 hours in the 172 or go out and fly your own plane at an even higher expense, but without a ream of paperwork and college computer skills to make the flight happen.
There has been some recent accident history with CAP. God Bless those souls that died training or searching. I asked the question the other day in a meeting how the accidents in CAP might correlate with a drop in hours flown per member. Frankly, I have seen our squadron airplane go from 100+ annually flown hours to an embarrassing number I wont post here. My big beef with CAP is the safety clinics we have once a year. Wings recognized safety programs in house are a great idea but it seems that every flight clinic we have is a big lecture on the past accidents and how we ain't flying enough to knock the rust off. Well I fly 150 hours a year and that number is beyond my budget at the current fuel prices. The members that fly often and stay proficient don't get any recognition. It is always about new forms and changing policies to create a false security of improved safety. The Bottom line is that the hassle factor has seriously impacted the hours flown. Skills are deteriorating in my opinion. At $42 a hour wet, tell me it's the expense factor. I don't think so.
On a positive note, I think AK and the western states get some good service from the CAP fleet. There are and will continue to be a dedicated bunch. I will continue flying cadets. I am honest though when I tell you I'm hanging on by my finger nails. Any more forms and requirements and bogus policies and I'll probably fade away to my own world of aviation.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison
About 20 years ago I was plane-less so I joined the CAP hoping to keep current and contribute at the same time. At the time I had about 1,000 hours in the aircraft they operated (500 Beaver, 500 Cessna) After a year of faithfully attending meetings, going to classes, buying CAP uniforms, etc, I finally got rated as an observer. Then I applied to be mission pilot. After another couple months I got an "interview". During that session with three "senior members" one of them declared I had "pencil-whipped" my log book. My frustration ended there. I got up and left and never looked back. Since then, I've witnessed several CAP abuses of privilege. I do not regret my decision.
Randy Kilbourn
PS - In over a year of paid membership I consistently asked to participate on their missions and training flights. Not once was I allowed on a flight, even after qualifying as an observer. I never received an explanation, just "we don't have room". Sour grapes? Nah.......
[quote="StewartB"]In Alaska, I'm always stunned at the number of Beavers the CAP has up here. Not junk, either.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison
They pitched me to join the CAP and I did know the people there because the chapter met at the Air Guard. I said I would think about it because I wouldn't mind checking out in their aircraft. The guy I talked to said they didn't need me to fly, they needed mechanics to work on their airplanes.
This topic reminds me of a couple of stories however. They had a 206 at 6 mile lake and were going to go flying, however the pilot didn't untie the concrete block the tail was tied to. He found out that it wouldn't fly with a hunk of concrete tied to the tail. Another pilot was checking a guy out in a Beaver at 6 mile. He proceeded to tell the new pilot that a Beaver couldn't get off there without using flaps, the then proceeded to try to take off without using flaps and parked it across the road on the end.
The picture my avatar is based on was taken right after I quit Utah Wing. The left wing said "Patrol"........
--------------------------------------------------------------------
It pissed off the wing commander, as it was designed to....
Hiya' EverBody -
Boy.I could write A WHOLE book about this one. There were no Air Explorer Scouts or EAA "Young Eagles" in 1967. So on my 13th birthday I bailed on the Boy Scouts and joined the Civil Air Patrol. I had seen/met some cadets shortly before that date and they told me they could FLY REAL AIRPLANES!
I logged my first hour two weeks later. Aside from meeting lifelong friend and brother HeavyJet in the C.A.P., I gained SO much more from the Cadet Program. And the main reason is because the squadron I chose had seriously COMMITTED senior members.
They were seriously committed to educating the cadets. They were seriously committed to volunteerism. In those pre-ELT days we did MUCH search and rescue.
Subsequently I transferred to a decrepit and dying Cadet Squadron to take command at age 16. This squadron was dying because the ONLY senior members associated with it were frauds.They used C.A.P. as a tax dodge for their personal airplanes and could give a crap LESS about the cadets who were very VERY demoralized.
They had given up, and the three that remained came over to join MY squadron.
Other senior members are quite often what I like to call "Society Page" volunteers.You know.the ones who always co-chair fundraiser charity balls that you read about in the Sunday society pages. All about status and "credit". Not all of 'em, but many I'm sure.
I saw potential in the ruins and since the Cadet Group Commander was my best friend, and HIS father was Group Commander I moved in and literally TOOK OVER.
The first thing I did was arrange to have booted out ALL the existing senior members by order of Texas Wing Headquarters who was about to deactivate the squadron anyway as no one had even checked the mailbox in six month much less filed out a report. (Yes, the C.A.P. was/is VERY big on paperwork....)
The 1st thing those bone-headed adults knew was me knocking on their door at their homes, introducing myself as the new CADET Commander....and then telling them to come get their S**T outta' MY squadron and facilities. The "so called" SENIOR Commander THOUGHT he would take care of me in short order.That bozo was OUT!
I found the father of one cadet was active duty at Carswell and a master Sgt. Wrangled him a C.A. P. Capt.s commission and he found the rest of the COMMITTED Seniors who CARED about the KIDS. If I say so myself...
we built a HELL of a squadron.
1. A chance to compete for an Air Force Academy appointment.
2. J.O.C. Jet Orientation Course Where ELSE can a 13 to 17 year old kid compete for the opportunity to fly a T-37 or T-38at "summer camp"
3. Hawk Mountain Penn. Ranger School. Tough physical and mental conditioning along with survival skills.
My three fondest C.A.P. memories
1. At a time when U.S. military uniforms were FREQUENTLY spit upon all over the globe including America; in junior high and high school when the MOST important thing in your life is to be accepted and CONFORM.....my thirteen to 17 y.o. Cadets PROUDLY wore their U.S. Air Force (duplicate) Civil Air Patrol uniforms to school on Flag Day, Veterans and Memorial Day and such, ignoring those that would tease and scorn them.
2. Upon one of my visits back to the "Lower 48" from Alaska after I had been gone two or three years I learned a former somewhat gawkyand "nerdy" cadet formerly under my command had risen to become Corp Commander of Air Force R.O.T.C. at Texas Christian University
so I showed up to surprise him. He drug me over to his Air Force Liason officer-Squadron Commander and introduced me as "the guy who taught him everything he knew....yada...yada...." His C.O. then told me what a remarkable commander HE'd become.
3. At a "open-to-families" meeting/mixer a once often um.... "distracted"cadet shyly introduced me to his parents and then scurried away blushing as I told his parents how incredibly WELL HE was developing into a leader. And then his parents told ME that Civil Air Patrol had done it. Shortly prior to his being DRUG to a meeting by a friend, the kid was headed the wrong way in life and they were at wits end. They were falling all over themselves trying to thank me. But it wasn't me, certainly not alone.
******
Without COMMITTED ADULT SENIORS who want to help kids, give guidance and TIME these kids may or may NOT have been "lost".Every kid I knew in the C.A.P. has pretty much grown into a RESPONSIBLE adult (even if some of 'em DID grow up to be Demmycrats :P ) and as far as I know have pretty much stayed away from felony crimes
at least.
There ain't NO barrel of apples without at LEAST one or two bad ones in the batch. C.A.P. is no different. If the first squadron you try doesn't seem like the right "fit", there are (usually) others. Many others in the larger cities.
C.A.P. did O.K. by me. It's even worth driving across town for.
Cloud(a-ah-te-e-en-HUT!)Dancer
A SUPERIOR pilot, uses his or her SUPERIOR judgement, to stay out of situations which may require the use of their SUPERIOR skills.
CD are we to understand the CAP made you what you are today. A Hawaiian Shirt. sack wearin, tt addicted, froggy pilot
Those of us in Emergency Services (the three legs of CAP: Emergency Services, Cadet Program, and Aerospace Education) who even gave a damn about the rest of the program were appalled by National's whittling down the things that cadets were even allowed to do...."How would you keep them even interested, much less inspired?" we thought....
35 years ago I was a cadet in CAP a great org.
I was encouraged mentored by some great adults. There were some adults who really enjoyed the military paperwork and bs that went with.
I went many places that I never would have gone. Several AFB's in the US. As a CAP cadet we went places that today wouldnt happen. I crawled all over a B52 from front to back. Rode in a tank. Flew a simulator. Met with SR71 pilots and was given a taste of the Air Force. My time as a cadet was great. After getting my Lic I did fly a few times for CAP. I had a plane and was encouraged to do thru the training as an adult so CAP could have me and the plane as needed. Work pressures ect I did not. It sounds like CAP has changed. Too bad it made a difference in my life that was positive.
tom
It was great 35 years ago as a kid. Real world, jobs, family kid I dont have the time to do it all. Military style puts it at bottom of my list. But as a kid it was great. Make sense?
tom
Hiya' 7853H -
Well. C.A.P. had ALOT to do with expanding my knowledge in the fields of aviation and leadership.
The areas that you mentioned however
all developed as part of the CloudDancer self-"improvement" program. Now available from Alaskan Chronicles Distribution as a three CD set with illustrated picture book guide for four easy payments of $199.99 plus S & H.
But WAIT!There's MORE!
If you order RIGHT NOW.........
CloudDancer
A SUPERIOR pilot, uses his or her SUPERIOR judgement, to stay out of situations which may require the use of their SUPERIOR skills.
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