Has anybody got the paperwork for a field approval for a 800-4 tailwheel.
Thanks for any help Ted
Ted ,
I used to know of one more in AK but it has gotten lost / sold so all I can say is we got our mold for our tail wheel yesterday and are hard at it
Wup
Could you be think of the Gar-Aero tailwheel. It's a wide upgrade for the Scott 3200 and I believe it is FAA approved by STC.
They are no good if you ever land on pavement because the wobble badly. They are great if you land on sand.
I think the guys name is Gary and he is in Homer Alaska.
Cubdriver,
The tail wheel that I am refering to was a 800x4 mounted like a swivel caster with no spring on a built J-3 with 30'' AirstreeksI will try yo find a pict and post it
Wup
Yeah, those Gar-Aero tailwheels SUCK.
If any of you have one you wish to sell, PLEASE send me a personal message because I need one of those terrible pieces of engineering to go on my next project.
The one I had my eye on got bought out from under me and I can't find another.
Really, they are GREAT. Your load (loaded CG) and condition of your tailspring and tailwheel pivot assembly have more to do with them shimmying than the additional width. I know guys that run them on 180's and 185's who love them, and are very careful with maintenance of the pivot assembly in order to avoid shimmy on pavement.
Dave.
My GA Tailwheel Never shimmies on pavement, and Never has..., though I rarely land on pavement, I do have to taxi and occasionally take off.
I like it well enough, it sure floats well in soft stuff! But, I think it may just be a little too much tailwheel for a Cub, transferring alot of the shock into the longerons.
Andy
What are you talking about, Andy?
I'm having a hard time understanding how having a slightly softer tire with a rounder, larger, and less-vertical sidewall profile which dissipates shock, will increase shock to the longerons or any other part of the a/c.
On the other hand, a Pawnee tailspring WILL transfer more shock to the longerons, and we've been using those forever because the trade-off is a spring that won't break so readily as a stock spring.
Maybe you were just thinking out loud. Maybe you've been listening to someone else think out loud......Maybe I'm full of crap. Sorry to fire-off at you.
I think the float and absorbtion of the Gar-Aero tailwheel mod is a good thing worth having on the tail of a Cub.
Dave.
Dave: I won't argue with you about the "full of crap" statement. The big tail wheel weighs more and that's the reason I won't run one. Any additional weight that far out on the arm is not a good thing. The first thing in the air is my tail wheel. The last thing on the ground is my tail wheel (except when I go over on my nose). I don't give it much thought. Shoot, I might just replace it with the original J-2 tail skid, that'd be lite. Crash
The tailwheel you have belongs on N40573, a 1977 Super Chicken. The assembly disappeared from the rightful owner some years ago. There is a field approval for the installation and I'm sure the owner would like it back.
You sure came out shooting with that post. There were more of these tailwheels in the pile that I BOUGHT one out of. Sure would like more details. Did somebody from the lower 48 steal all the big tailwheels on the last frontier? Ted
the ga tailwheel does not shimmy on paved runways! tailwheels that aren't properly maintained shimmy on paved runways. I've been running a Gar Aero tailwheel for 12 years in alaska, I don't land much on paved runways (to extend the life on the 30" airstreaks) but when I have, my tailwheel has never shimmied. If you don't tighten the nut that hold the lower assem. to the upper assem. ( which is on the grease zerk pivot bolt) to the proper bearing preload, your tailwheel is shimmying because it's too loose. Don't bad mouth someone's product because you don't know how to maintain it...........
Hello.
I hope no one thinks that I, Dave Calkins, am badmouthing the GA tailwheel. I like them and want one for my next project.
Nanook, if you thought I was badmouthing it, please read my post with a bit more of a sarcastic attitude. I was responding to cubdriver's post on March 6. Maybe you're talking to these other guys.
Crash, do you really think that a few extra ounces on the tail of your 180 Dynafocal PA-18 will be a bad thing? I'm thinking that it would actually HELP your EWCG to add a pound back there. Please respond to this!!
I'm a guy who likes "extra light" but I beleive the Gar Aero tailwheel is a worthy addition to my empty weight.
Dave.
Anyone have a pic of the Gar Aero TW? Is the fork assy changed to accomodate the bigger tire?
OK Guys, now I don't want to be letting out information that is top secert,-----but I have two,(2) GA tailwheels for sale. One now, one in a coupla weeks, "why?", You rightfully ask, well because Ak Bushwheel inc is finally gonna have a new IMPROVED 4.00x4 tailwheel assembly, of course it will be STC,d for the Super Cub and a lot of other planes, a PMA/FAA approved part! All of the machining issues and casting issues are resolved, heat treated to MIL specs----machining is being done by a sc-driver-----cost,--don't know yet but competive with other options. There is an optional tail wheel tire avaible that is a Baby Bushwheel,--- 4ply--6ply rated Kevalr cord Radial 11x5x4, that we are custom building that will fit other wide fork units, tougher that H--l and will survive, rough, low pressure running and provide shock absortion like we all want in a tailwheel ---cost?---I don't know yet, I'ts all time and material + FAA paper work + overhead + capitalization and a small % (very small) for profit. Should know this week, If I get the mold finished up tomorrow, Wup (Hot Shott) and I will be prototyping monday. Drop tests are scheduled for early April,---------and we have only been working on this for 18 months!!! My how time and money fly!! Of course we have been distracted some what by our efforts to get a new tire out for the Beaver Guys----35x15x10---- but that is pretty well in the bag, look for it at the Alaska Airmans Trade show in May. Back to the GA tail forks, I will sell them either complete with the 3200 heads or just with the forks. call me at work. We are always working on safty inprovements, always open to suggestions and YOU are always welcome to visit us at our factory! Bill Duncan
poor maule owner, who can't afford a Super Cub!!
Bill, do you have a cost on the 35 x 15 x 10's yet?? They would really make it impossible for me to see over the noseof my UTVA's (but like I can now!) in three point, but would really add to the "fun" of it all.
Thanks,
Wayne
Hi Dave.
Sorry that it took so long to get back to you....
Weight as Greg mentioned had crossed my mind. Would like to hear more on the subject...is it consequential?
Regarding the transfer of shock...
I am not an engineer, I am not even an A&P, I am a pilot....therefore, in my widely varied limitations, I said to myself..."Self, if I were a big honkin' tailwheel, and I was attached to two little longerons, which would break/bend first?" So hence my THEORY that the longerons would bend before the tailwheel would break. Agreed that the GA tailwheel may absorb more impactation than the Scott...however, don't you agree that a more durable tailwheel/spring setup will put more strain on the longerons? I have, in my limited knowledge of physics and airframes, drawn this conclusion myself, without thinking out loud, or really even thinking at all.
Thanks,
Andy
P.S. And yes, there are different forks to accomidate the wider tailwheel. Really fun trying to get a towbar attached...
Wayne,
We haven't got that far yet, afraid to even guess, toooo much I know for sure--but will be a real help for the Beaver class planes. 3000 lbs gross static per tire for a combo of 6000 gross weight. 4ply 6ply belted kevlar ra
dial------will be great fun!
Bill Duncan
poor maule owner, who can't afford a Super Cub!!
It seems like the transfer of shock would be somewhat gentler with a bigger, softer tailwheel. Kind of like hitting rocks with the mains...I'd rather have the tundra tires softer for the rough stuff. I'd rather transfer the shock more gently to those longerons. The questions that come to my mind are... because the wheel is bigger, is it hitting more stuff, and is the assembly longer which would increase the leverage at the longeron attach point. Additional leverage there without beefing up the attach point can't be good. Does this make any sense?
Thanks Bill! UTVA's are 4000lb gross (4300 floats) and already have 10" wheels, so it just caught my eyeOriginally Posted by AKBUSHMAULE
Wayne,
We haven't got that far yet, afraid to even guess, toooo much I know for sure--but will be a real help for the Beaver class planes. 3000 lbs gross static per tire for a combo of 6000 gross weight. 4ply 6ply belted kevlar ra
dial------will be great fun!
Bill Duncan
Cheers,
Wayne
The GA tailwheel transfers less shock and stress to the longerons. The little tire on the 3200 scott does a poor job of rolling over rocks, cracks, etc.... that loud thud you hear when your tailwheel hits something, is the tire being slammed up in the air against the spring pressure. The 3200 does a poor job of absorbing that energy, thus, that energy gets passed along to the tail springs which are attached to your longerons. All you have to do is run a wider softer tire to feel the differance. As for side stress on the longerons the GA tailwheel uses the same 3200 castoring head, it breaks free to castor at the same side stress level as before, there is no more stress induced at that point. You will notice that the GA tailwheel does not dig in before it castors like the 3200 does in softer conditions
Wayne,
What kind of wheel is used on the UVTA? We have designed this tire around the 10" Cleveland wheel. And are the brake design simular?? Brake clearence may be an issue with other tpye wheels.
Bill Duncan
Ikatan,
I have had great sucess with the GA tail wheel in the rocks. With it and ours I believe the increase in leverage is negetiated by the decrease in rolling restrance due to the larger rolling diameter. Any increase stress is at the point of attachment of the tailwheel assembly and of some of that is transfred up the spring to the lower longerons, but mainly to the bolt through the spring. A Pawnee -A assebly (2 bolt) might transfer more up the spring but up comming testing will probaly answer these questions. Our eeddbitiee baby Bushwheel will help all of these issues anyway!
Hope this helps.
Blue Skies Bill Duncan
poor maule owner, who can't afford a Super Cub!!
I would assume that it would also be beneficial on sandbars...less sinking and would keep a lot of sand from the internal workings of the assembly. We've not had much snow in SD the past few years so I think the Gar TW would help on rough frozen turf also.
Who sells the Gar? I'd like to see one.
Nonook,
DITTO's
Akbuskmaule
poor maule owner, who can't afford a Super Cub!!
Bill, the wheel is(was) I believe factory made in Yugoslavia and the 4 piston caliper is nicely tucked away inside the brake disks diameter and doesn't stick out beyond it like a Cleveland. Caliper wraps around the disc from the inside, not the outside like a Cleveland. If and when the time comes I will get pics and measurements before committing. Also have to check with my guy at Transport Canada, but shouldn't be a problem with them being registered as Special C of A - Limited where we can do just about anything other than an engine type change without TC's approval.
UTVA already has good sized tailwheel, that is dampened with a spring over oil oleo hidden inside the tailcone. Can't remember the wheel diameter (and they are buried out in 4 feet of snow right now), but it might be up to a mini-bushwheel as well!
Speaking of snow, you guys should have sent the dog sled race down here, we've had 16 feet of snow fall, since Nov 30th!!
Thanks,
Wayne
Wayne,
Remember we are the NEW AKBUSHWHEEL, we are located in Northeastern Oregon, on the edge of the HELL'S Canyon,(the deepest gorge in North America), it is cheaper to ship tires to AK than to ship raw material there.
I do agree, it's been tough for the sled doggers this year, but what a boon for the folks in Fairbanks!! I have alot of friends there and it is doing alot for their ecomny.
The tail wheel on your plane sounds like one on a DC-3 or a Beech-18, anyway," way tough". I would be interested to see your set-up on pics, I have been around a plane like yours in ak but failed to note the details, I'm always impressed with big and yours is! I think there are a couple of planes in Kelona B.C. like yours, impressive. It does sound like the brake systems are simular, clevelands are tucked into the wheel nicely too. Probally will work just fine. I'll let you know how things progress, or keep a sharp eye on our web site.( akbushwheel.com) Gotta go, I'mm smokin jerky today since I CAN'T GO FLYIN------Da--it
Blue skies Bill Duncan
poor maule owner, who can't afford a Super Cub!!
Sorry, brain fart on my part!
I guess yesterday they had to reroute the sledding trail as they apparently ran out of usable terrain on the path they were on.
Yes, Dever? Logging in Kelona >had< 2 of the 18 UTVA 66's, that the "group" brought into Canada in 98/99. They've been sold again and are now in Edmonton Alberta.
If anyone is curious (or really cares) what we are talking about there are pictures of these UTVA's on our website, and note that the nice looking gal in the wedding dress is my sister-in-law and she's 5'-8" tall!!
Cheers,
Wayne
Posted: 06 Mar 2003 15:25 Post subject:
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Cubdriver,
The tail wheel that I am refering to was a 800x4 mounted like a swivel caster with no spring on a built J-3 with 30'' Airstreeks I will try yo find a pict and post it
Wup
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a thread from a while ago....but I'm just curious....has anybody got a picture of the 8.00-4 tail wheel mounted on a Cub?
Randy
Randy,
I am still looking for the picture as soon as I find it I will post it
Wup
It's simply amazing to me that someone can make a statement with out any expeience with the issue that he's talking about.
I have been runing a Gar-Aero tail wheel for 14 years. On and off pavement no no prombles, no shimmy, no longerons failure , no twisted frames, no blown tail wheets, no craked wheel assembles.
If you keep the air pressure up and do some maintainance on the tail wheel assembles as you should then you well not have any prolems.
Try landing on a soft beach or rough gravel bar and than tell me which wheel that you would like to have. I really do believe that the larger tail wheel does asorb a lot of energy.helping that ass end than doing it more harm.
Crash, I agreed with you on the weight issue and I have to also agree with Dave that you may want a little more weight in the back.
I've been very happy with the trade of of more weight and greather floatation. I do know of a 2 of scot 3200 tail wheels that have blown out when in heavy gravel bars, for what reason I don't know
The little tailwheels blow out for 2 reasons that I know of, both of them rooted in not enough air pressure.
First, obviously, low air pressure can cause a soft tire to spin on the rim and shear the inner tube's valve stem off. Yeah, and I don't care if a guy thinks it takes application of brakes to cause a tire to slip on the rim, he's wrong.
Secondly, low air pressure allows a soft tire's sidewall to flex enough to pinch the inner tube between it's folded over sidewall, causing the inner tube to "pop" like a balloon.
I've pulled tubes from dead tailwheels with evidence of both these scenarios.
Furthermore, a BLOWN tube allows the talwheel tire sidewall to REALLY flex, which causes delamination of the tire sidewall core and rubber, thereby rendering the tire un-re-usable in some cases.
Just make sure you have 50 PSI in your Cub tailwheel and at least 55 PSI in heavier tailwheel a/c like 180/185's.
So far, this has worked for me, in grapefruit size round river rock and a 1900 pound-or-so Cub.
Dave Calkins
Hey,
How much does one of the Gar-Aero tailwheel assembly cost (assuming that you already have a Scott 3200)? Also (if they are cheap enough), where does a guy get one?
Bill
While we're talking about tail wheels, let's also address tail spring options. Piper used a 1 1/4" wide, four leaf spring on PA-18's after about 1957. I've watched Cubs taxi with a load and these little springs are really flexing and doing their job protecting the longerons and not transfering shock up through the fuselage. A friend with over 12,000 hours of time in a Cub guiding, will use nothing but a stock spring. We were out once and his broke, but he replaced it with another 1 1/4" spring. Said the Pawnee spring is too heave and too hard on the fuselage. But the problem is the stock springs break. I've always run a 1 3/4" three leaf Pawnee tail spring. There is a four leaf 1 3/4" Pawnee tail spring but it is way too stiff and heavy. One trick that I do is to shorten the top leaf (short backer leaf) about 2" to give the overall spring more flex. The caster on the tail wheel still sits parallel to the ground but when you pick up the tail and drop it, you can see the spring flex without jarring the fuselage. Crash
Could you still use the stock tailwheel springs to retain the shock absorbtion but replace them more often to avoid breaking one? I am assuming that the spring fails from many uses not because it is to weak to began with.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
I suppose you could make it a regular replacement item, say every two or three years. Another thing I've noticed about the narrow springs is they tend to twist back and forth and the tail wheel bolt loosens more often. I like their flex but don't like their whimpyness (a word I made up). Crash
delete
TJ. , you'r right that if the springs don't break you beat up the rudder. Last summer, I landed 2 feet short of where I wanted to and the tailwheel hit a small hole, or a big piece of sod and broke the seven sixteenth tailwheel bolt. I flew home with a duct taped up rudder.
Tim
I'm glad to hear about Crashs friend, I thought I was the only one who liked the light springs. I replace the springs about every 500 hours, retorgue the attach hardware every 50 hours, replace the attach hardware about every 100-200 hours. This will vary depending on how the plane is being used, but the idea is to retire the parts before they break. This might seem like a lot of extra maintenance, but I haven't bent or broke a longeron yet. I don't think it's abuse that breaks the springs, just normal wear. They flex more, and you can only bend a piece of metal back and forth a certain number of cycles before it breaks. If the springs never break, they probably aren't flexing much, but something else might be...Springs are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than longerons.
I'm using two Pawnee springs with a 10" Scott... Two springs seems to give a little smoother ride...
Just a thought to further my theory:
First, my tailwheel shimmied (real bad I might add) on pavement for the first time. The tightening of the main Bolt did the trick.
Second, I cracked my longeron this season, beating up my airplane in the normal working environment. Of course, the Gar-Aero Tailwheel was fine, but I had a pretty little crack in my longeron.
Third, my flying partner's whole tailwheel assembly came apart the week before--in the normal working environment. His longerons were fine.
I like the floatation and supposed absorption of the Gar-Aero, but, is it really absorbing the shock? or just transferring it to the longerons. The only other guy I knew this fall with BROKEN longerons also had a Gar-Aero Tailwheel.
The weight issue really ISN'T an issue--it would only be an issue when light, and I LIKE having a few pounds out on the tail when landing in rough-stuff Light.
Bottom line, I still like the concept of the G.A. type Tailwheel better then the Scott.
Andy
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