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Short Take-Off.

David C.

If you read this post, how about taking a picture of that PA12 with the Modifiedddddd Maule wing on it? I am sure that it had huge leading edge slats, spoilers, and flaperons? If we were talking about the same plane it was built in the Seventies and was an amazing performer, (can't for the life of me think of his name) he was killed in Bristol bay spotting fish? and used to work the winters as a page for the Legislature?

Tim
 
Answers

RJK. The answer is yes and yes. It was done, it is heavy, and it is complicated. It was the Thompson Brothers Super Cubby. I can send you pictures of it if you want. Hi Tim. The name you are looking for is Sumner Puttman. It was a extended Maule wing on a PA-14 with a slat and lots of tricks. The slat that the Stolmaster is building is a spinoff of that idea. Jerry.
 
Jerry, Now I know you do go back a ways with us (good ol boys) Sumner! He was a good wrench, if my memory serves me right he did have and aeronautical engineering degree, and loved to push the envelope. His workmanship was kinda crude, but the stuff he built did perform! He used to come over to my cabin when I could no longer land of the beach with my cub and he still had room to land and takeoff twice. Somewhere I must have a picture or two? I am pretty sure it started as a PA12?? David C. said he knows the guy that has the plane now? hope it is still flying?

Trust you had a good Christmas!

Tim
 
Yeah, Sumner may have built more than one, Tim. And maybe it was a -14 that Jerry knows.

I just put fresh tailfeathers on the PA-12 based a/c with Maule wings and GIGANTO leading edge slats.

The thing's on 6" gear and 26" Bushwheels. I haven't seen it fly yet, but the owner says it'll fly slow, and he has no need for a PA-18. Says he hates the toebrakes.

Says he's landed this thing on skis in a snowed over alder patch and as soon as he was taxiing slow all the snow settled and he was sunk...in snow AND trees. FUN!!!!

Dave Calkins.
 
Slots, slats, slits, grooves, fences and VGs usually will work on something that is not designed well. They will make a poor performer function, but seldom make a good performer better.

You never ever get something for nothing. Most of the devices are single design point fixes and do what they are intended to only over a small range of operation. If you want to take off and land really short expect to do it with your nose real high. Also expect your cruise speed to decrease.
The span wise location of slots and slats change the stall onset and speed of propagation of the stall along the wing resulting in very different flying characteristics. Look what Stinson went through trying to get something that would shorten the take off roll and landing speed and still be stable.
(I'd kinda like to see the recommended location for the Microaerodynamics VG STC on the 108 slotted wing).

If you want to modify your cub to be a short field winner, don't expect it to fly like it did before. It won't take long figure out what you gave up.

The only "high lift device" that I would put on a SC is a set of vortex generators. Then use the lower stall speed for margin and really appreciate that you have aileron control right down to stall. Still, you will loose some speed at cruise.

Gary
 
Wives Tales.

Hi Gary. I'm sure you have heard the saying. "Say nothing about a person untill you have walked a mile in their shoes". The same goes for airplanes. It's obvious by what you say that you have never flown a slat. If you have an open mind and are willing to travel I can get you into one for a test flight. Just contact me. If the Stinson you are refering to was military, they had problems that I won't get into here. They weren't all aerodynamic. This is a great country and we all have the right to say what we feel, wether based on fact or not. I will agree that everything that flies is a compromise. None are perfect for everyone. My Cub goes higher, farther, faster, slower than it did when it was stock. If stock is for you, I have no problem with that. I have always said! "If you don't need a mod don't do it." :) Jerry.
 
Jerry,

Yes and no. I have flown slats, but not on a cub. I have seen a set go on and off a local cub used in severe bush conditions.

What I have done is designed and researched high lift devices as part of my job for over 30 years (including slats). I am fairly aware of what happens to the Cp distribution with chord at various angles of attack and the associated increase in the loss characteristics.

If your aircraft (or any cub) has all the performance gain you mention, I an interested in understanding how and why. Unfortunately flying one won't do it for me. Changing conditions and lack of accruate sensitivity in the seat of my pants without a lot of before and after attempts usually leaves me scratching my head - or the seat of my pants. Do you have data? How much higher, faster, slower. what change in fuel burn. I'm interested.

Professionally I was never fond of VGs either, but, like you with the slats,
they feel good on the SC.

Gary
 
If you don't think slats work, you must have never been in a Helio.

Jerry, a friend of mine is working on a cub wing with self-deploying (Helio style) slats. Do you think there is any merit to the experiment? Might they work?
SB
 
Never said that they don't work, I said that you don't get something for nothing. Additional drag comes along with the extra lift. That is the idea behind an aerodynamically actuated leading edge slat. At high aoa the pressure distrubution pops the slat out which redistrubutes the pressure loading and delays separation. . At higher speed it stows to avoid the resulting losses and drag. High lift devices cause higher drag. You either slow down, add power or tuck it back in.

Just because something works well - or allows a design to function- on one application, does not mean that it will have the same effect on everything. It would be like assuming that we all should put golf ball dimples in our surfaces.

GR


Just because they work on something that needs
 
Stuff.

Hi Gary. I agree with most of what you say. I understand it better when you restated it. I couldn't agree more with the seat of the pants vs data. The Micro V.G. is the only thing that as far as I am concerned absolutely enlarges the envelope and does not slide it. It has been tested and retested. They reside in a dead area while in cruise. No so of the BLR. The Stolmaster slat is designed to have the advantages of the Helio type slat without the weight. And not the drag of a fixed slat. I'll send a PM. Hey Dave, we both may be correct. It seems the PA-14 was damaged quite badly and the wings may have been put on a PA-12 fuse. Have you seen 8500W in your turf? Jerry
 
Portagecreek, obviously you dont know who Jerry Burr is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

well put
_________________
Bury powerlines, not pilots!

Good point. I will take it off line since I am interested in understanding just what I need during the spring and fall to get out of the mud faster.

Apparently, I offended some folks. It was not intentional.

Gary
 
Gary...........I don't think it's possible to offend anyone on this site........lots of alligator hide here.........but a tuff crowd if ya slip up a little.
 
I don't think anyone is offended to much, and if they can't take it screw 'em.

If we are going to get opinionated and offensive -
I've never seen a decrease in cruise speed with micro's, but maybe those BLR's do, because they are waaay up on the wing. But if you can afford the fancy BLR's, you probably can afford the extra gas and time it takes to get somewhere.
 
Portage Creek?

Diggler and I are the current kings of offense/defense and no tact! So you will most likely fit right into this crowd. I must say that there has been a tremedous amount of Good info on this site, and some times it takes a little to stir folks into action?

Your comments don't worry me, it's the "Lake Clark National Park" address? That doesn't make you a tree hugger does it? I hate them darn parks, As far as I am concerned it is Still Mt. McKinley--and I will land any darn place I want, besides the best sheep hunting is in the park! What side of the creek is the boundary on anyway?

Ok enough is enough about Parks! The VG's are the best bang for the buck on a Cub Wing period, second only to "Lighten the load".

Continue the dialog please!!

Tim
 
Lake Clark National Park

The park lives outside the park in Port Alsworth. The park boundary is at "Portagecreek'. Jay Hammond lives about 10 miles away. Some time ago a rival called Jay a "posey sniffing swine" and the marine. master guide took it in jest. I'll take your tree hugger question that way too.

I do get a bit concerned about how close the cub gets to hugging trees; hence, the interest in short take off capability. As far as I know only two of us really live in the park and my neighbor Howard and I would be glad to welcome you to Portagecreek. If you fly Lake Clark Pass and start down the lake from the sandbar you will see a horseshoe shaped island. To the shore side you will see a red on white Super Cub and an Orange on Orange Stinson 108 usually on floats.

We might know a few places for sheep or caribou or moose or a place to spend the night

Gary.
 
Lake Clark National Park

The park lives outside the park in Port Alsworth. The park boundary is at "Portagecreek'. Jay Hammond lives about 10 miles away. Some time ago a rival called Jay a "posey sniffing swine" and the marine. master guide took it in jest. I'll take your tree hugger question that way too.

I do get a bit concerned about how close the cub gets to hugging trees; hence, the interest in short take off capability. As far as I know only two of us really live in the park and my neighbor Howard and I would be glad to welcome you to Portagecreek. If you fly Lake Clark Pass and start down the lake from the sandbar you will see a horseshoe shaped island. To the shore side you will see a red on white Super Cub and an Orange on Orange Stinson 108 usually on floats.

We might know a few places for sheep or caribou or moose or a place to spend the night

Gary.
 
Lake Clark National Park

The park lives outside the park in Port Alsworth. The park boundary is at "Portagecreek'. Jay Hammond lives about 10 miles away. Some time ago a rival called Jay a "posey sniffing swine" and the marine. master guide took it in jest. I'll take your tree hugger question that way too.

I do get a bit concerned about how close the cub gets to hugging trees; hence, the interest in short take off capability. As far as I know only two of us really live in the park and my neighbor Howard and I would be glad to welcome you to Portagecreek. If you fly Lake Clark Pass and start down the lake from the sandbar you will see a horseshoe shaped island. To the shore side you will see a red on white Super Cub and an Orange on Orange Stinson 108 usually on floats.

We might know a few places for sheep or caribou or moose or a place to spend the night

Gary.
 
Lake Clark National Park

The park lives outside the park in Port Alsworth. The park boundary is at "Portagecreek'. Jay Hammond lives about 10 miles away. Some time ago a rival called Jay a "posey sniffing swine" and the marine. master guide took it in jest. I'll take your tree hugger question that way too.

I do get a bit concerned about how close the cub gets to hugging trees; hence, the interest in short take off capability. As far as I know only two of us really live in the park and my neighbor Howard and I would be glad to welcome you to Portagecreek. If you fly Lake Clark Pass and start down the lake from the sandbar you will see a horseshoe shaped island. To the shore side you will see a red on white Super Cub and an Orange on Orange Stinson 108 usually on floats. We both have VGs, but Howard's tips droop and you might find dimple tape in a few places.

We might know a few places for sheep or caribou or moose or a place to spend the night

Gary.
 
Lake Clark National Park

The park lives outside the park in Port Alsworth. The park boundary is at "Portagecreek'. Jay Hammond lives about 10 miles away. Some time ago a rival called Jay a "posey sniffing swine" and the marine. master guide took it in jest. I'll take your tree hugger question that way too.

I do get a bit concerned about how close the cub gets to hugging trees; hence, the interest in short take off capability. As far as I know only two of us really live in the park and my neighbor Howard and I would be glad to welcome you to Portagecreek. If you fly Lake Clark Pass and start down the lake from the sandbar you will see a horseshoe shaped island. To the shore side you will see a red on white Super Cub and an Orange on Orange Stinson 108 usually on floats. We both have VGs, but Howard's tips droop and you might find dimple tape in a few places.

We might know a few places for sheep or caribou or moose or a place to spend the night

Gary.
 
Gary,

I think I remember exactly where you are! I used to spend a lot of time with Glen and Bee, usually helped dig potatoes in the fall on the way through hunting down south! Definetly a piece of heaven! For those of us that lived in Alaska before Statehood and watched the overtake of Parkservice, Forrest Service, and every other special interest (including) oil and gas development, it is a little hard to get used to not being able to go back to the land we used to stomp! I have a lot of respect for Jay Hammond, however I don't align mysef with most of his (current positions on Govt.) I must say he has done well for himself and accomplished most all he has set out to do! If I get by your way this summer I will stop in and visit (keep a look out for the "fat red cub".

Tim
 
If you dug potatoes with Glen you are my kinda guy. He and his operation are still there. Jay does not fly now. Stop in. We monitor 122.9 the local CATF and 127.75 Glen's company.

Gary
 
Portage Creek,

Nothing better then Bee's cooking at the "farm". spent many days with the cub hunkered down beside the hanger, and helping keep the beaver, cubs and what not from pounding themselves to pieces in the cove! I have heard that it is getting pretty developed by the "big strip" and alot of other cabins around, haven't been there in about 10 years!

Used to spend a lot of time down fishing on the Gibraltor River, and hunting on the Peninsula.

Tim
 
Hi guys. Hi gals.

I'll try not to sound like an idiot here, so Digg won't confuse me with our president, who's a lot better thinker, and hirer of thinkers, than he is a showman. (yes, Diggler, I've left that one wide open so you can have a little fun with your next post and comments).

Portage Cr. Gary, and Tim R., former gov. Hammond is still a popular guy here in the city, even with the conservatives, because he still makes sense with what he says, even though we don't agree with what he says. I guess in the bush he's still adored because he designed a way to give free money to every Alaskan citizen. That's real cash for people in the bush that may have no other means of obtaining real cash.

My problem is that he supported, this last election, a candidate who I believe would have thwarted our abilities to utilize resources that we MUST have access to. 'Nuff said.

Back to the VG's. The BLR set-up on the PA-14 slows cruise about 1 MPH.

I'll take that trade-off any day. Big tires will cost you far more speed than that, but their importance is worth the speed. Same as the VG's are worth it.

Portage Cr. Gary, I agree with your original comment of using the lower stall speed created by VG's as a "margin" and appreciating the improved low-speed aileron authority the VG's afford you.

I'm not so sure I agree with you that sacrificing a Cub's cruise speed for some better ultra-low speed flying is sacreligious. We're talking about an airplane that will do a good 89 MPH if it's lucky, and the tires aren't big.

That's my opinion.

OK Diggler, I'm waiting for your punches.

Tim, heard from Crash in awhile. I don't think I've seen him post lately?

Dave Calkins.

PS Mr. Hammond got a ride to his place a couple weeks ago from Katmai Air. I was at their hangar building-up coats on some tailfeathers at the time. He still looks healthy, sorry he isn't still doing his own flying.
 
David,

I to admired JH for what he did to "share the wealth" to the "locals" especially those that chose to live in the "Bush". What confuses me is how he now seems to cowtow with whom ever will pay for his services? I guess that is what makes up a Politician? Isn't that in opposition to everything that he said he stood for when in State Office?? I must admit that I have been away from Alaskan polotics for over 12 years so I don't claim to be accurate on all issues, (I will leave that to you guys that still live there!

Sorry, This should not be the subject of this thread? (Steve-you can move it if you want??

Tim

About the VG's. I think the topic has been talked to death! Those that have them like the improvement, those that don't have them and comment on them (should fly them and then comment?)

As for speed in a Cub??? Non Issue (come on even I can do the math--you don't save enough time by going 1-2-3 miles an hour faster!
 
Lighten the load" is #1, and maybe you are right Tim when you say "most bang for the buck"on the VG's but notwithstanding the cost I would put the Borer prop at #2 and VG's #3. I put the Micro's on during rebuild a couple years ago........never flew with them previously......and have to say that I am quite impressed. Not counting bigger engines, flaps, slats, or pilot technique what else would enhance performance on the cub?
 
Probably getting into a gray area here but what about washout? If you took half of the washout out of the wing you should get better lift, but what about overall performance?
 
cubdrvr,

I would agree with you as to the order. The challenge still remains that as someone has already said----it is very hard to talk about performance of a cub due to the fact that "most" have been modified in some fashion or the other since coming out of the factory.

One has to determine the intended use and then make modifications to suit that use?

An example is Jerry Burrs white hawk will definetly out perform in take off and landing "When operated at "competition weight", compared to a stock cub, or a fat 12 like mine! I think Jerry would agree that if the wind was blowing 30-35 like the day we were down here last summer, he is at a disadvantage over even a stock cub when it comes to getting the bird to roost!

For those of us the use our planes for recreational flying, camping, hunting and horsing around, (we) are going to have to settle on a compromise as to performance, and as well the depth of the pocket book is a determining factor.

Basic premis is still to add as much performance with least amount of weight gain.

1)-lighten up the Pilot-minimum mods to plane needed to provide added strength and dependability (tail brace, saftey cables, hd gear, best brakes, "soft tires" height/width to suit environment--precise rigging of airplane for best performance
2)pack the best quality lightweight tools, and survival gear
4)borer prop
5)-VG's of either manufacture
6)minimum fuel to make the trip safely
7)lightweight, minimal instrument panel, handheld GPS/radio
8) pilot technique and practice make the most difference-period!!

I would add that if a person could shoot for an empty weight of 1150 on a SC he would get adequate performance!

All the rest is personal preference and trial by error
90% of the fun of flying a cub is riding on the edge of its limits! and testing our own!

Tim
 
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