Weight seems to always be a hot topic so would some of you guys post your empty weights and what mods and engines you have so we can get an idea of the range of weights out there!!
Weight seems to always be a hot topic so would some of you guys post your empty weights and what mods and engines you have so we can get an idea of the range of weights out there!!
Dale, Asking a Super Cub pilot what his (or her-please note the political correctness) what their Super Cub weighs is like asking a woman (oops, just blew the political correctness) what she weighs, your probably going to get a lie.
All I'll say is, if it ain't down to three digits, don't brag about it.
In your experience then how many Super cubs will make it under the magic 1000 pounds,I was just talking to a fellow that had a [mostly stock]
150 hp cub on tundra tires and it weighed just over 1200 pounds which surprised me .I had a 1951 totally stock Supercub with flaps and the 115 hp and it weighed 942 pounds and with 1/2 tanks and me [150 pounds] it would get off the ground and climb better than anything around. But once I started to get up to gross the bigger engine cubs started to shine.
The rule of thumb for a Cub with electrical, radio, GPS, extended baggage, 30" tires, H.D. gear, safty cables and a Borer prop, weighs between 1120 and 1150 lbs on professional digital scales, three point differential calculated in on a lap top. I would question some of these 1000 lb Cubs, pure B.S. plain and simply. Crash
A 150 hp with all the light weight electrics, little bitty tires, 4" wheels, with a wood prop, an nothing else, MIGHT get 3 digits, if the fabric is light.
The 'lectrics weigh 100 + lbs, when you add everything up, even with the light weight stuff, a properly equipped, useable off field S-Cub can't get the magic 3 digits with it installed.
Your buddys 1200 lb stock tundra tire equipped stock Cub is very realistic.
The old backpackers saying, "ounces make pounds", is very true with Cubs. (No, I won't tell you what mine weighs 'cause I'll just get called a lier, but crash will be happy to know I weighed it on digital FAA certified scales in the level flight attitude, not sure what calculations you need to make in your lap?, but I probably don't want to know...)
Are you using aviation grade helium in the tires and in that spare area in the gas tanks?
Think you are the first to think of helium in the tires?
I own a J-3 that has every Super Cub mod that I can think of installed. Weighs 920 lbs. I did a restoration for a friends Super Cub(Extended gear, extended baggage, metal headliner, borer prop, 160hp, external baggage door, etc) Weighed 1056 lbs. Also, did a PA-18-95 with all the same mods and it weighed 1016 lbs, which is about the difference in the engine weights. All weighed with digital scales in three point attitude. How about it Mark? Am I close?
Yep, your right in there. I would have thought yours would have been lighter, but you have electrics don't you? There is one running around here similar to yours, but a 105, big tail and flaps, no electric, only one wing tank and 4" wheels, very light fabric. It weighs in at about 830#, and when we are both light, he can get in and out as short as me, he just can't get a load out with the little engine, and the climb isn't there, and of course his range is limited, but the thing is one of the sweetest flying Cubs I've ever flown. The 90 hp J3 I used to own, and is for sale here weighs about 720 with the Bushwheels, if I remember correctly, and will land in places a stock S-Cub never would, because it just floats over the mud/snow that the heavier Cubs would dissapear in, but again, your just limited in what you can haul.
There is a big difference between most "Lower 48" Super Cubs and a real Alaskan bush Cub. The question was for the weight of a PA-18 150/160hp Cub. It is a question that really needs to be qualified. I see most Cubs in the States are still running little 26" or smaller tires and light weight stock gear. A 31" Bushwheel weighs 36-38 lbs each, that adds up weight real quick. Parts are parts and weight is weight, I have not seen a Piper PA-18 set up for hard bush flying (with electric) that weighs under 1100 pounds. You can get it to around 1000 if you dump all the electrics and most of the instruments. Crash
My last supercub N82555 (the one in the river) was a stock fuselage with only the removable X brace added, x braced top deck, homemade extended baggage, belly tank, underseat storage, stock electrical, 29" bush wheels (33lbs each), borer prob, HD extended gear, clev double brakes with boosters and it weighed empty at 1156LBS (crash you are right on about the differences) Most cubs that have been rebuilt in AK have Many sleeves, in and out, a few extra tubes, and all that adds up!
I am about to weigh my PA12 and I am guesing 1160-1180lb just by the way it feels.
I used to have a stripped down PA18/150 that weighed 1096 empty and it was the lightest flyer I ever felt!
PS: Jerry what is the White Hawk weight??--you can tell the truth cause we know yours is in 3 digits! besides I have lifted the tail a time or two!
Crash is right on with the weight of 150 and bigger Cubs, I'm not arguing. The really light ones I mentioned all have little engines, and are pretty well stripped, and no, they are not "real" Alaska bush Cubs, they are not intended to be, they are just real good flyers, and will never be used to haul a dead moose. Dale asked for different weights with different mods/engines, not just 150's, and a smaller engined Cub that weighed 4 digits would not be such a good plane.
The best "mod" you can do to increase ANY Cubs performance is not in what you can add, but what you can take away. Mine is one of those 150's without electric/instruments that is "around" 1000# with the borer and 29's, I can't take anything else off without really missing whatever it would be. I would like to make up some really light weight interior panels someday though...
MD- the only dissadvantage I have seen with light weight is to be able to get them to QUIT flying in the wind. Jerry Burr's White hawk is the most impressive light cub I have seen ever. He has spent 1000's of hours to lighten even the thin washers under bolts, light fabric, thin dope, and on and on. The last little fly in we had, I have video of him "hovering like a hawk". The only challenge he had was on Landing in winds upward of 30mph and getting onto our little strips of less then 350ft.
There is always a trade off. Nuf said.
Mine is a stock 150 with long prop, spinner, safety cables, beefed gear, beefed tail, X brace, double pucks, 29' gar areo, big battery, big starter, generator and oil cooler. The panel has an electric T&B, transponder, ADF, radio and stock instruments, rudder strobe, portable intercom and remote compass. Metal interior and headliner, scott parking brakes, dodge strut/spar beef up and tie down. Scott tail wheel w/4leaf spring and upper extended bagage, dodge seatbelt mod with 4" military belts front and back. It weighed empty with 24" multipurpose tires at 1152#. This is pretty much a standard for a cub that is located in Anchorage. I figure I could lighten it 30-40 lbs with the new light stuff on the market but the cost is not warrented, at this time, as the plane performs fine for where I fly. It might not win any contests but it hauls my butt to some good fishin' spots.pak
Sounds pretty accurate PAC! My theory has always been, replace the heavy stuff when it quits working! (problem is some of that old heavy stuff was built better than the new? (That is why it was heavy---Duh!!)
The old 26" multi-purpose tires were stinking awesome, light, flexible and "round". Good snag if a guy can find some that are in good shape!!
Since we are all bragging (or sadly admitting, whatever the case may be) about our weight, I will say that I am not to unhappy with My Cub...
My PA-12 w/ 150hp, all the bush mods, was 1211...now the Cub with 29" Bushwheels, belly tank, and all the AK crap...is about 1160. I got a couple extra radios for fish spotting...
A guy I know out in McCarthy area has a 160hp Cub, no electrical, Streaks, HD gear, and he told me it was 970 or thereabouts. I Called BS till I flew it, and man was that a nice flying airplane! (Other than the constant hand propping--made ya wince every time you pulled mixture on a hot day...)
Andy, After you have proped your Cub for a few years, you get to know the engine so well, it's no big deal to prop it. I know exactly how to shut down for a given engine and outside temp, hot or cold, I never pull more than 4 blades, (useually 3). It performs so much better, I just can't add the 100+ lbs for a push button starter. I know I take better care of the engine, (letting it cool properly, ect., so it starts again easily), and perform a compression test on every start.
Our Sport trainer has a Cont. 0-200 no electric, A McCauley 74/43 prop, two 20 gal. wing tanks, 850/6 6ply tires and a Matco tail wheel with a fiber glass spring. Empty weight is 845.25 # it gets in and out pretty good. Almost forgot safty cables.
I didn't think electrical was a big deal either until I left the master on, drained the battery, and found my self hand proping in ankle deep water on smooth lake ice. Fell on my can every time I pulled it through. Thought "if this thing starts I will have lay real still and let it taxi over me, then grab the ski when it goes by and drag myself up into the cockpit". I got smart and pushed the plane a long way over to a patch of snow I could stand on and got it going. Ya, I know about proping it from behind, mine is a high compression 160hp and I am left handed. It just don't work for my. No, electrical is a must have for me. Crash
My 2 cents:
I've always thought 1150 pounds a realistic "average" weight for a 150HP PA-18 equipped for the real world.
I've got a PA-11 with O-235-C (100HP) and just a few mods that's 799 without the starter, gen., batt.
What a sweetheart it is. I just don't use it for hauling moose meat.
On the other hand, we've a piggy PA-14 in the family that has paperwork claiming 1156.9 pounds. Somethin' don't compute, cause it sure doesn't rip off the ground like any 1150 pound 18 I've stolen.
Interesting that the PA-14 factory W&B states 1010 Pounds, as delivered in 1948, with an Aeromatic prop (14 pounds) and battery, radio, DG, etc.
crash, you make me laugh and cry at the same time! I have been there with you on the frickin Ice!, I used to prop my cub after heating up the oil on the stove (when we had one) I used to bring a piece of firewood down and stuff it under the skiis, (like a chock) then I would put another on endwise between it and my back foot, spin the prop from behind and pray I didn't fall forward! (I still have impulse couplings on both mags) big difference)
only thing worse than that is when the 185 wouldn't start with the starter--Oh ****!
I once started an Beaver with a rope (nother story there)
I also new an old broad from Bethel that could kick start a 747 (and that is no lie!!
1951 PA 18-95,
Hand swung, standard Piper instruments plus Transponder and Radio. Wind generator, dinky gell battery, four point harnesses, girlie wheels, extra 18 gall tank.
Comes in at a rather portly 980 lbs (80lbs over stock book weight)
There's many a slip between Cub and strip
If I couldn't prop it from behind I would have a starter. From behind, always keep your left hand on the door frame, and don't let go. This position allows you to keep both feet on the ski, (just like proping on floats) Get to know at what prop position your impulse coupling (couplings) snaps. Bring the blade up on compression stroke and let the compression bleed off until the blade rests just before where the impulse snaps. Turn on the mag (mags) with impulse coupling(s) on then give the blade a quick flip with the right hand while holding the door frame with the left. Even the highest comp Cubs start pretty easy this way (only takes two fingers to give it that "flip". I know proping isn't for most people, but if you fly to places where you can't get a jump start, (expecially in winter), get to know how to prop your plane safely first, it may literally keep your head on. A spinning Borer prop is a 6 foot 10 inch meat cleaver, and you need to treat is as such.
Being a big tall freak helps with the proping. You can pick the big engined non-electric Cub drivers out in a crowd because of there freakishly enlarged right arms.
I've hand propped mine plenty. My prop is positioned so it will stop when a blade is at 2:00. I pretty much know how and when my engine will fire. Knowing all of this is nice and as I get older the extra electrical system weight is justified by the ease of pushing a button.pak
I don't know when I'll give in to the bush button, but I may have to put in a left door, and one of them Russian engines that spin the wrong way, so I can change to the left arm for a while. The right arm is getting heavy, when I start "listing to starboard" when I walk, I'll have to make a change.
Mark, I like the trick of coming to TDC and letting the compression bleed off before the last little flick lets the impulse coupling go. And it works great even for the high compression engines.
In case some of you don't know...
These Cubs originally were equipped with an impulse coupling on the left mag only. I don't see any for maintenance that have one added to the right mag. Maybe my customers are all behind the times. Anyway...so when you push that starter button, or swing that club, your best luck will be with the left mag selected on and the right selected off, never "both". It also helps if your "P" leads are properly wired. I see them wrong quite often.
You guys with key ignition switches are most likely coming up on the "start" key position with both magnetos ungrounded and ready to fire.
Does anyone need the explanation that an impulse coupling retards the magneto timing for very low RPM running (start-up), and should I remind you that grounding a magneto is what turns it off?
River float operations are alot easier with the heavy acid-filled thing and the heavy geared grinder thing. It can be done without them, but you need to have a good slipped half hitch in your repertoire.
I always hand prop Cubs from the back. And I set up the prop position so the engine comes up on TDC with the prop right about 4:30 O'clock when viewed from the pilot seat. I do this on every Cub I install a prop on.
That's no lie about the Beaver rope start. You'd be surprised how easy it is to hand prop them anyway, the long two blade ones especially, due to the blade inertia once you throw the thing.
What about that 747 kick start?
Good post David!
word of caution: I have seen many folks doing several dangerous things while attempting to prop a plane (I've done it too, so I am guilty as charged!)
First) is not checking the Mags/ Throttle and Mixture prior to turning the prop
Second) Not setting the brake (if you have one)
Third) turning the prop (not treating the prop as "Hot" even after you "checked the mags". (P leads break and "open" MAGS ARE NOW HOT!!)
fourth) turn the prop backwards to clear the engine??? (has the potential to chip off the sharp edge on a dry vacumn pump) (compression kickback if at the right place will likely start the engine, or diesel in reverse if flooded) or at worst catch your arm, head or other body parts!
fifth) attempt to Hand Prop the beast by yourself with out someone (competent to show you how to do it safely!
PS: I have always put a second impulse on the right mag to make starting easier? (guess I just like the sound too! been bit a few times while doing compression check also?
Mag timing is critical for a smooth running, good starting engine too! I have seen many AP's that don't take enough time to accurately time the two mags together and also the timing can slightly change when the clamp is tightened down? (double checking them only takes a minute or two more--agreed?
PSS: I unfortunately watched in the 70's a guy get killed proping a 180 due to poor technique? Like Spins they don't teach it anymore--humm
It's Possibly a Lycoming SB? Or maybe Bendix or Slick that allows the dual impulse installation. Just need to put longer studs on the right mag hold down to accept the adapter. I've changed some and know there is a approval, I just can't remember what it is.
The key start Cubs with only one impulse should have a jumper on the back of the switch that keeps the right mag grounded in the start position. You remove the jumper when converting to dual impulse so that it starts on both.
Thanks Mark! I know you are right, If I find it I will post it also?
Two impules mags? I thought you guys were watching your weight! My ACS key start switch is wired as MD explained so only the left is hot for starting. I hand proped my 160 cub this summer hot just to see if it would start. Started just the same as our PA11 C90 we used to have. Started on the 3rd pull all the time hot but the throttle had to be opened a minumum of 1/2 to 1 inch.
Our PA11 had ext wings, 2 18 gal tanks and large baggage, 800X4 tires. EW was 848. I work on an other PA11 thats stock except for clevelands and it weighs 810. Only PA18 I have seen under 1100 lbs was a stock 135 at 1048 and a stock 150 at 1065 with 800X4 tires, no radios.
Taking the elec out of my cub isnt really isnt an option because I fly at night and above 10,000 ( transponder mode C required) some times. Stripping a cub would be fun just not very practical for most of us even if we can hand start them.
Any one ever see the clipped-wing Cub "Neglige" in Peter Bowers's long- wing Piper book?
The thing was covered in a translucent covering through which one could make out the structure underneath, though not clearly.
I wonder if the stuff was light? Definitely experimental.
I recall a material used to cover the "Eagle" ultralights that was much like the stuff on "Neglige". Anyone?
Tim, Snow line is down to 1500MSL this morning. Had a blue bird day today, and it sure was beautiful. Kinda crisp, too.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah sounds so niceeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Yeh I always thought it would be cool to cover a plane with transparent "Monokote" like the modelers use?
Tim, that gal in Nome you mentioned, the one that could kick start a 747... I think I'm married to her. She's calling...got to go! Crash
Crash! Nope! the one I hope not! This broad is bad news! I can't imagine her getting married?--specially to a cub driver/ builder!
I have a sales brochure for PA-18-150 in the late 70's (they didn't make a new brochure each year then) anyway, Piper listed the empty weight of a PA-18-150 at 946lb WOW.......I think they weighed the first 90hp super cub and used that figure thru-out the run of the airplane LOL. The original paper work for my 1968 PA-18-150 Super Cub listed the empty weight at 1042lbs that was without Vac system. included electrical, 8:00x4 tires and Goodrich Brakes, 6 inch Scott Tailwheel. I rebuilt this airplane 4 years ago..........it has a Lightweight starter, vac system with gyro's (my cub is IFR equiped) Cleveland wheels 8:50x6 tires, Tail Strobe, Landing lights, nav lights, extended baggage, intercom, King Marker Beacons, KX155 Nav/com, KI 209 Vor with GS head. KT 76 Transponder with blind encoder, ELT. Airplane was weighed intially with an old set of platform scales......then a few days later with electronic scales......believe it or not....they both came out with the same number......the airplanes empty weight came in at 1135lbs........the only thing I've added is a Garmin GPS III pilot since then........but......I've lost 57lbs myself.........so I'm gaining on better performance LOL. I use to fly a J-3 cub years ago.......no electric......basic airpalne......had a 75hp Cont.........and nothing could beat that airplane off the ground or in landing distance.....it was a kite...........but then almost everything would out climb it and out cruise it.........and by the way......that was with just one person on board.......we actually use to measure distances, having fun competing against a bunch of fellow pilots, that inclued other J-3's, PA-11's and supercubs. That's the info I have.......for what it's worth..........I've often thought about sealing a wing........and adding helium..........wonder why no one has ever tried that in history......probably not enough volumne to do much good I quess. Oh well, back to the drawing board LOL........maybe I'll just diet some more LOL "Brian"
Wow Brian, congratulations on the weight loss.
I'm thinking of doing the lighter-than-air gas thing but plan to use hydrogen. I heard someone may have tried it before. Hydrogen should be cheaper if I can find it in good quantities, and I don't have to worry about the kids getting ahold of it and making prank tele-calls with high-pitched voices.
Brian, I'm not capping on you, I've just come up behind you on a couple of posts, and you've left yourself open.
Honestly, it's great that you've reduced your weight. Most of America need to do the same. We just have it so good here. We should all want to increase our lifespans, and one way is to excercise and eat healthily.
Thanks Dave..........cap away..........I enjoy reading what everyone has to say.......and it appears that you're very knowlegable and it's appreciated that you share that with us and you usually do it with a little humor injected. ........Thanks.....
I've thought of helium bags in the wing bays... Something light like those shinny balloon things.... Probably no worth the agrivation.
I feel really stupid asking, but could someone explain what "LOL" means, Is this some computer thing, I don't get it, and it's driving me nuts.
Mark I think it means "lots of luck"? Or "loads of Laughs" or "little old lunitick", thought I would guess along with you as I really wondered the same thing?? Glad you asked, cause I felt like an idiot for not knowing?