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AOA indicators

FullThrottle

FullThrottle

FRIEND
Kenai AK & Houston TX
Was wondering if anyone has installed an AOA indicator for a certified PA18, or has experience using an AOA system for landing/takeoff. Thought it might be useful for maximizing performance without the risk of stalling inadvertently. I see a lot of wing drops and hard landings at the STOL contests...
 
I do not have a AOA indicator, and have been into some wine so take take my advice with caution. My understanding is the usual AOA indicators used for cubs are based on airspeed. Everything I read says they are "calibrated" for the aircraft. What does that mean??? If you base it on airspeed? I already have a helicopter airspeed indicator that works well in my cub. It will stall at the same airspeed/conditions every time. I would love a heads up display with my airspeed at center of windscreen. My advice is to get some spin training, have your cub properly rigged, get a helicopter airspeed indicator, and go to altitude for some very long slow flight/stalls. Most cubs will fly below 40 mph but if your airspeed indicator stops at that point it will do you little good.
It does little good to have a accurate airspeed indicator or AOA device if you don't know what your plane and YOU will do once you enter a stall!!! The advantage of having stall training is you will know how both will react. That information is what you need to be good at STOL flying.
STOL events are just that, events, not meant for everyday flying!!! Hard landings dissipate energy, early flap drop, stall and wing drop will result in a short landing and no damage if done right. STOL events are in a very controlled environment, very few can or want to try reproducing the performance in daily flying.
DENNY
 
Try flying slow with the air speed covered and wear no headset. Feel the plane's reaction in 3-D and listen for changes in sounds and gravity that causes accelerated movement.

Evolve from an instrument monkey to a pilot.

Gary
 
Does gravity change?


BC12D-4-85 said:
Try flying slow with the air speed covered and wear no headset. Feel the plane's reaction in 3-D and listen for changes in sounds and gravity that causes accelerated movement.

Evolve from an instrument monkey to a pilot.

Gary
Click to expand...
 
I’ve never flown a plane with an AOA, but I’d like to. I can’t criticize something I have no experience with. I considered adding AOA to my G3X and still may do so just to experiment with it for fun. When you get the standard negative reponses about AOA ask the commenter about their experience with the device in an airplane similar to yours. The pilots I’ve spoken to that have them love them. The ones who dis them never have. Not unlike VGs, slats, etc.
 
I have mixed emotions on the subject. In big, heavy (slow responding) aircraft with boosted controls (essentially no feedback) I can certainly see the value of an AOA indicator. In a Cub I think it's totally un-necessary, kinda like training wheels on a tricycle, BUT..... it might be a good training tool to help new pilots learn how to feel for the edge. My biggest con is that it's another colorful dial that keeps you inside the cockpit, and not "out" flying the plane.
 
Supercubs come already equipped with an AOA indicator...just open up the door...:)
 
Eddie Foy said:
Does gravity change?
Click to expand...

No but the effect of it on the airplane does especially as we approach and land. Rates of rise and sink can be felt and often heard as the airframe makes it sounds. That's all I intended...once in awhile unlock the pilot from the gauges to feel the changes.

An AOA would be fun to have available, especially a HUD. Couple that with the senses in a light plane. But Cubs aren't airliners that need the panel to fly.

Gary
 
I think you are confusing gravity with G forces. God's gravity is always one and points down!

BC12D-4-85 said:
No but the effect of it on the airplane does especially as we approach and land. Rates of rise and sink can be felt and often heard as the airframe makes it sounds. That's all I intended...once in awhile unlock the pilot from the gauges to feel the changes.

An AOA would be fun to have available, especially a HUD. Couple that with the senses in a light plane. But Cubs aren't airliners that need the panel to fly.

Gary
Click to expand...
 
Eddie Foy said:
I think you are confusing gravity with G forces. God's gravity is always one and points down!
Click to expand...

Yes G force is a better term. Thanks.

Doing whatever to improve the body's feel of the airplane with the head out of the cockpit was my suggestion.

Gary
 
I flew about 10 hours in a PA 18 with an AOA indicator. I will classify it as just about worthless. If you’re coming in slow and trying not to stall and focused on the AOA indicator you probably shouldn’t be flying. After about two hours we turned off the sound so it would stop buzzing all the time. You can still see the lights. I would say they work as advertised but not something that I think an experienced pilot would find very useful. Better ways to spend your money


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
My current ride, a Cessna 175 with tailwheel conversion, came with an “AOA device” installed. I tried to use the device on landings initially, but found it to be a distraction, frankly. It wasn’t till I started ignoring the device that my landings became more decent. While the indicator is on top of the glare shield, and therefore near my line of vision, having to change my visual accommodation from “out there” meaning down the runway, to a device mounted on the glareshield just doesn’t work well for me. Old dog new tricks? Perhaps.

ill keep playing with it, but it’s pretty clear to me that I can land the airplane much shorter by using the “old fashioned” tool: my butt and peripheral vision.

Your mileage may vary, but I think if you want to work short, look out the window.

MTV
 
Whether it works or not I think if I spent sixteen hundred bucks for something I'm gonna tell everyone it's great, otherwise I'd feel like a fool. If you're really, seriously into STOL competition what does that thing weigh? :roll:
 
I haven't flown one, but looking at the specs, the problem with using the current crop of AoA indicators is that they're designed for a different purpose: warning lights v. fine tuning the approach. They're designed to provide a warning approaching the critical angle attack, with the objective of nudging the pilot out of this undesired flight regime. But in Cubs flying ultrashort landings, this is the desired flight regime.

In the warning mindset, being a nuisance is the point, i.e. an idiot light. For Cubs, what is needed is a very accurate instrument, that provides information without interfering with the pilot's view of the landing area and horizon. I suspect that such an instrument would be a lot more expensive to build, install, and calibrate than is what is currently available.
 
Landings would be the least valuable place for one, but a steep turn in a short approach to a short place? That could be helpful. Takeoffs over tall obstacles in swirling winds? That could be helpful. Max performance escape turns in fuzzy air with high stress? Definitely helpful. Let alone having an established target for slow ops when bouncing back and forth between different airplanes with different loads. I’m not an advocate but I am interested. Adding AOA to my G3X is easy and inexpensive. I may try it just for fun, and in my Cub, it may be beneficial since flying that slow isn’t natural for a long time Cessna driver. Or maybe not. There’s only one way to find out.

It seems to me that calibration would be subjective. Personal calibration would be key. Maybe I’m wrong, but different stall horns respond at different speeds. Get used to one and you’re annoyed by another. I’d think that would apply to an AOA, too.
 
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stewartb said:
Which indicator? Did you take it out and do a recalibration?
Click to expand...

Sorry, had to get to the airport to get the ID. It’s an Alpha Systems unit. And, yes, I verified that it’s “calibrated” correctly.

My point is that it’s a distraction, even though it’s very near my line of sight, during a time when I don’t need distractions.

I can feel where this airplane plane is at just as accurately as that thing can.

And, I would point out that the “sensor” on this device looks suspiciously like a pitot mat from a Piper Warrior......

Might be a great tool for someone, which is fine with me, but I’ll happily ignore the thing, thanks.

MTV
 
sjohnson said:
I haven't flown one, but looking at the specs, the problem with using the current crop of AoA indicators is that they're designed for a different purpose: warning lights v. fine tuning the approach. They're designed to provide a warning approaching the critical angle attack, with the objective of nudging the pilot out of this undesired flight regime. But in Cubs flying ultrashort landings, this is the desired flight regime.

In the warning mindset, being a nuisance is the point, i.e. an idiot light. For Cubs, what is needed is a very accurate instrument, that provides information without interfering with the pilot's view of the landing area and horizon. I suspect that such an instrument would be a lot more expensive to build, install, and calibrate than is what is currently available.
Click to expand...

I agree with this assessment. To me, these things are simply not TRUE AOA devices.

FWIW.

MTV
 
I agree with Stewart, I find the turns on approach to be the landing spot especially in wind to be more challenging. I departed a sand bar in a turn last night and was setting up for the bar in the next turn and it felt weird, looked down and the ball was way out because I was stepping on the rudder. Seen too many base to final stalls or just sinks especially in weird winds, not many stalls over the landing area. On the approach it is power and pitch.
 
My G3X already has an ADHRS computer. Reading about AOA systems it sounds like ADHRS is a big part of what makes the good AOA instruments good, and not all AOA instruments use one. The Garmin has an audible beep that begins when the initial yellow chevron lights up and the beep frequency increases as the plane approaches the stall, a threshold that the pilot defines. Any of you Cessna drivers use a stall horn? Does that feedback help you? Is your reed set to where you know what it means? My answer is yes, yes, and yes. The Garmin AOA sounds like a winner in my situation.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmfb8huyC_k
 
I’m of the belief that your brain can be honed and developed to surpass any AOA gadget in stol flight envelope.
Just takes some basic understanding of what forces are at play to sustain flight, and practice. Lots of practice.
Not just going thru the motions kind of practice but deliberate kind of practice, paying attention to what’s happening and why. Granted, it would be tough to replicate every condition or situation you may encounter but given enough data, your brain has the ability to fill in the voids and keep you out of trouble without conscious thought.

This is called “instinct”, we all have instinct, just needs to be developed. There’s no shortcuts.
 
kcabpilot said:
Whether it works or not I think if I spent sixteen hundred bucks for something I'm gonna tell everyone it's great, otherwise I'd feel like a fool. ...
Click to expand...

That's the problem.
Very few people who spend money on a mod wanna admit that it isn't all it's cracked up to be.
And the more expensive the mod, the less they wanna admit it.
Makes it hard for someone considering those mods to know if he's getting the real story or BS.
 
Steve Pierce said:
I agree with Stewart, I find the turns on approach to be the landing spot especially in wind to be more challenging. I departed a sand bar in a turn last night and was setting up for the bar in the next turn and it felt weird, looked down and the ball was way out because I was stepping on the rudder. Seen too many base to final stalls or just sinks especially in weird winds, not many stalls over the landing area. On the approach it is power and pitch.
Click to expand...

Steve,

i question whether one one of these general aviation “AOA systems” would necessarily help in the scenario you describe. The problem is, the sensor is mounted well outboard on ONE wing. So if it happened that that was the wing with the higher alpha, one of these might help, but if the sensor was on the other wing......maybe not so much.

From your description of the situation, having a simple ball/bank instrument mounted on TOP of your glareshield might be the best and very simple solution to that.

Im not sure these things represent AOA across the span of the wings, but they sure don’t indicate yaw.

MTV
 
stewartb said:
My G3X already has an ADHRS computer. Reading about AOA systems it sounds like ADHRS is a big part of what makes the good AOA instruments good, and not all AOA instruments use one. The Garmin has an audible beep that begins when the initial yellow chevron lights up and the beep frequency increases as the plane approaches the stall, a threshold that the pilot defines. Any of you Cessna drivers use a stall horn? Does that feedback help you? Is your reed set to where you know what it means? My answer is yes, yes, and yes. The Garmin AOA sounds like a winner in my situation.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmfb8huyC_k
Click to expand...

So if you’re so convinced these things are so great, instead of speculating, why don’t you install one in one of your airplanes and tell us all about it?

I have limited but actual experience with at least one example, and so far, I’m not impressed. Your mileage may and probably will vary.

MTV
 
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I agree Mike, I don't see an AOA instrument doing the job. Was just pointing out the turn to final being the more critical threat than the actual landing. Fly, fly, fly and getting a feel for the airplane. My slip indicator is my most important instrument along with the seat of my pants.
 
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