Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
I think you can find both ends of the spectrum in professionalsome and hobbiest.
Oratex Fabric
- Thread starter Roger Peterson
- Start date
- Status
I think you can find both ends of the spectrum in professionalsome and hobbiest.
Lars Gleitsmann
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Here some examples of the same color and batch Oratex on other planes. They (among many) did not have any problems. N514AK, the Bearhawk LSA, flies fast and did not use glue under the same tapes. It has been to Oshkosh twice and all over the place, based in Austin, TX. I could upload more photos of other planes with the same batch...
Greg, The tapes you used are the same tapes Frank and Larry and all the others used. You have not seen the New tapes yet ! They were first made in Blue last summer and the Silver ones were made in the fall. I did elaborate on tape developments in previous posts in great detail. We do seek to improve and perfect our products and always have been. We do use our own products and know them. The new -3 Tapes would have been done without your case; they were under development already. - I have called the -2 Tapes finicky before, but they have worked safely for many builders. I can understand Your frustration Greg and I am trying to help, always have. Let us get you the -3 Tapes and figure this out. I understand your concern.
Regarding the fuel stain, we did develop the ORATEX WAX to prevent those and when they get on there Frank got them off with simple green (wasn't it?) -before the wax existed. Others reported that the stain would go away over time by itself.
Greg, The tapes you used are the same tapes Frank and Larry and all the others used. You have not seen the New tapes yet ! They were first made in Blue last summer and the Silver ones were made in the fall. I did elaborate on tape developments in previous posts in great detail. We do seek to improve and perfect our products and always have been. We do use our own products and know them. The new -3 Tapes would have been done without your case; they were under development already. - I have called the -2 Tapes finicky before, but they have worked safely for many builders. I can understand Your frustration Greg and I am trying to help, always have. Let us get you the -3 Tapes and figure this out. I understand your concern.
Regarding the fuel stain, we did develop the ORATEX WAX to prevent those and when they get on there Frank got them off with simple green (wasn't it?) -before the wax existed. Others reported that the stain would go away over time by itself.
Attachments
Norfolkdumpling
Registered User
As a newbie to this forum and as an Oratex user for many years 8 in total, I can say that there are tips, tricks and skills that need to be learnt as with any product in the world today. If you approach using Oratex with the same mentality as Stits or Ceconite you will fall on your backside, if you don't "get" the fact you are dealing with new technology and certain processes have to be adhered to then you will fail once again. In a nutshell Oratex works. Can you have problems, yes, but you can with other systems, can they be sorted, without a doubt, do the benefits outweigh the re-education necessary to get a great job, without a doubt. You know if we all approached things Luddites then we wouldn't use GPS for navigation, we wouldn't use computers to communicate, we do because we have learnt to use new tech, and Oratex is new tech.
lars knows the product, trust him, he is a good guy that really puts the effort in, for those negative posters I would suggest that if you have had negative experience with the product then it might be more of an issue of product education rather than product failure, maybe a training session would pay dividends. Oratex works, it saves weight, increases aircraft performance, reduces stall speed, it's quicker and easier to use, it's non toxic, it doesn't support combustion and it doesn't try to kill you with toxic solvents
lars knows the product, trust him, he is a good guy that really puts the effort in, for those negative posters I would suggest that if you have had negative experience with the product then it might be more of an issue of product education rather than product failure, maybe a training session would pay dividends. Oratex works, it saves weight, increases aircraft performance, reduces stall speed, it's quicker and easier to use, it's non toxic, it doesn't support combustion and it doesn't try to kill you with toxic solvents
Attachments
Lars Gleitsmann
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
It may not be a perfect example, but see here below a Weight and Balance sheet of a German Glider that was overhauled with Oratex. The weight reduction was entirely by shedding the old Ceconite and paint. The plane is a Steel tube fuselage, wooden wings two seater glider. Impressive 19 kg could be saved by covering this AS-K 13 with ORATEX. That is 42pounds! See here multiple Oratex-gliders in the photos, a whole bunch of them are flying with Oratex. The lightest Ceconite I ever weight was 29 gram per square foot, Oratex600 is 9gram, The 6000 is 14-15gram per square foot. The heaviest Ceconite I found was over 70 gram per square foot ...
Attachments
-
12309758_1715639718665286_5185975464107506663_o.png -
Coumpound_Curve_Oratex_Covering_Glider_Nose.jpg -
Red Oratex Glider Nosebowl.jpg -
DSC_0385.JPG -
DSC_0386.JPG -
11219424_855250797927694_151332180888814589_n.jpg -
12027161_1693180864244505_9019712398425523211_o.jpg -
12027306_1693179747577950_4959751681156887527_o.jpg -
12291154_855644584554982_7641688274196794762_o.jpg -
12310102_1712732038956054_156153351081192835_o.png
Norfolkdumpling
Registered User
Forget the weight issue as all testing was done here at MTOW we have tested pretty thoroughly the UL600 and the 6000 and whilst the numbers are different (different aircraft and different conditions) the reality is the same. We are fairly sure it is done to the texture of the fabric, surface texture that is, and the nearest analogy is that of a golf ball, take you standard Stits/Ceconite/cotton job with countless coats of paint larded on and the super smooth finish, then the fabric finish of Oratex. A smooth golf ball dosent travel as far or keep directional stability, a dimpled golf ball fly's further and keeps directional track a lot better. Stits/Ceconite/cotton smooth golf ball, Oratex textured golf ball.
Recent testing on a high wing monoplane recovered in 6000 saw a 16lb saving of weight over Stits lightweight and at MTOW we saw a 3 knot reduction in stall speed and same cruise speed with about 50rpm reduced. What can I say I was there, no smoke, no mirrors, no conspiracy plot.
Recent testing on a high wing monoplane recovered in 6000 saw a 16lb saving of weight over Stits lightweight and at MTOW we saw a 3 knot reduction in stall speed and same cruise speed with about 50rpm reduced. What can I say I was there, no smoke, no mirrors, no conspiracy plot.
Mark Goldberg
Registered User
Austin TX
Just a quick note here concerning the Oratex 6000 on my Bearhawk LSA. It was first finished and flown in July 2014. Probably has around 150 hours on it now. It has been to Oshkosh twice, and to Sebring FL once. Getting ready to go back to Sebring. So far the Oratex has behaved well. The only thing I have noticed is a little lifting of the pinked edges in a very few spots. But other than that minor issue it has been very acceptable - so far. We did document the weight savings doing some test panels with Poly Fiber with thin coats and normal/heavy coats of paint. The Oratex panel weighed 12 grams. The Poly Fiber panel with light coatings weighed 20 grams, and the Poly Fiber panel with heavy coatings weighed 30 grams. All the Poly Fiber fabric used was the medium weight fabric. The Bearhawk LSA has metal skinned wings so the weight savings would not be a large as a plane with fabric covered wings.
I do not regret using it. Just thought I would add my experience to the discussion. But will not participate further on this topic. MG
I do not regret using it. Just thought I would add my experience to the discussion. But will not participate further on this topic. MG
Chicken Hawk
Registered User
Southern NH & Eastern Maine
If my plane flew the way my golf balls do, I'd be in trouble!
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
For what it is worth Cub Crafters added 5 lbs. to the Carbon Cub when they went from light weight fabric to medium.
Norfolkdumpling
Registered User
Ha Ha, whatever you do don't start playing pocket billiards then
skukum12
MEMBER
The Last Frontier
MCS, you have personally given me great and money saving advice over the years, but, with all due respect, have you ever used Oratex? I believe that most of your customers are certified, but what if you have a customer with an experimental? What if he wants Oratex? Are you going to turn him away because you don't like how the finished product looks?
Everyone else: A new product comes along and the pissers and moaners hit the ground running. We ALL know of these comments: AOSS, the struts are weak. Bushwheels, they wear out too damn fast or they make my plane slow. Catto, won't my prop shatter if I decide to drive it through a snowbank or brush. 406 ELTs, too big/heavy/expensive/I don't want to register it cause the govt will know where I am at. 30 gal Atlee tanks, too heavy/always carrying extra fuel/cracking. Powdercoating, how am I supposed to see cracks/doesn't it rust under the finish? VGs, they fall off/they tear my wing covers. Fuel selectors, anyone who doesn't have left/right/both and off is going to crash.
I am COMPLETELY for debate about products, but for crying out loud, first hand experience with a product is the ONLY opinion worth reading.
As for me, have I covered with Oratex? No. Have I seen examples of others finished work? Yes. From my firsthand OBSERVATIONS, those that had little or no fabric experience appeared to do an excellent job. A lot of problems MAY just boil down blasting ahead and not reading and following the instructions.
P.S. I don't want to re read this entire thread, and maybe this idea is old news, but here is a suggestion; since there seems to be a large Glacier Cub following here on the dot org, and the Bobs used Oratex, what did they think?
Everyone else: A new product comes along and the pissers and moaners hit the ground running. We ALL know of these comments: AOSS, the struts are weak. Bushwheels, they wear out too damn fast or they make my plane slow. Catto, won't my prop shatter if I decide to drive it through a snowbank or brush. 406 ELTs, too big/heavy/expensive/I don't want to register it cause the govt will know where I am at. 30 gal Atlee tanks, too heavy/always carrying extra fuel/cracking. Powdercoating, how am I supposed to see cracks/doesn't it rust under the finish? VGs, they fall off/they tear my wing covers. Fuel selectors, anyone who doesn't have left/right/both and off is going to crash.
I am COMPLETELY for debate about products, but for crying out loud, first hand experience with a product is the ONLY opinion worth reading.
As for me, have I covered with Oratex? No. Have I seen examples of others finished work? Yes. From my firsthand OBSERVATIONS, those that had little or no fabric experience appeared to do an excellent job. A lot of problems MAY just boil down blasting ahead and not reading and following the instructions.
P.S. I don't want to re read this entire thread, and maybe this idea is old news, but here is a suggestion; since there seems to be a large Glacier Cub following here on the dot org, and the Bobs used Oratex, what did they think?
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
1. nope, to ugly end result to try.
2. (next project I help on IS going to be experimental or such.. FYI) ABSOL FUC*(ng absolutely! I would turn down a customer that wants that ugly of an end product!) ( I probably only take on 1 in 4 projects/people that ask..)
next question(s)???
Mike has agreed to help me with my new project and that airplane will not use Oratex. That's my choice and it shouldn't offend anyone any more than those who've chosen to use Oratex don't offend me. For guys in the position to select a fabric system? Choose what to use for the reasons that make sense for you. Respect that others will do the same. If the discussion doesn't represent all sides you won't have all the information to help you decide. I'm pleased to be in the position to choose. It's all good.
Last edited:
Mauleguy
MEMBER
A lot of pictures have been show by others, pictures are worthless until you have problems. My pictures could make my airplane look like a show winner.
I followed the directions I was given. Even Lars experimented with heat settings as I was having problems and came back and told me more heat was needed then was originally stated over metal areas. Believe me when I say I spent time on the phone with Lars.
I find it interesting how people who have never been seen on this site always show up after I have stated something negative about the product. How they praise Lars for his expertise and willingness to help.
My experience was different, less then desirable, I can show as many pictures as all of the other yahoos out there that my airplane looks great. Pictures in this case are not worth a thousand words until you have something like a tape coming off the wing in a 4 foot section.
I would not use this system if it was free at this point, use it if you like but this is my own judgement.
All the supporters of Oratex can come from God knows where to tell us how great the product is now....
Last edited:
Chicken Hawk
Registered User
Southern NH & Eastern Maine
Time for this thread to go to "Rants & Raves".
I have never seen Oratex and have no skin in this argument. What I know is we owners of fabric airplanes expect the fabric to last and look good for a long time usually 20 years or more. Whether this is a reasonable expectation or not, it is generally what I have observed. What else in our lives do we expect this long service life? How did we come to this expectation? I will venture it is based on the experience the industry has enjoyed with the ceconite/dope or Stitts/Polyfiber processes. Unfortunately the test of a fabric's tenure is demonstrated in the years beyond 17-20. IMO, all the systems I have seen look good in the early years. Remember how good Blue River looked? I do like the non toxic aspects of both Stewarts and Oratex. We are all waiting for a proven and durable non toxic system. However, for me, the expense and downtime of recovering tends to make me lean to the proven systems while watching the new technologies to prove out.
skukum12
MEMBER
The Last Frontier
Mike, your response to a non threatening question is a prime example of why so many people dont ask direct questions on this site. I suppose the rest of us weekend warriors shouldnt dare not believing exactly how you do. Have a good day, and Merry Christmas.
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
just wanted to be crystal clear AGAIN, no the stuff looks horrible...
some times CAPS AND !!! are not enough to get the point across ....
anyone unclear still on if I would use it???
Hardtailjohn
Registered User
Marion, MT
Lars, is there any visual indication (never mind the blowing with compressed air test) that a seam is attaching properly? Such as with Polyfiber or Stewarts, where you look at the tape/seam that is layed down and can visually see an indication of the quality and quantity of bond by the color? Also, is that the same glue that is used for the other seams? I'm interested in trying a sample...is there a sample "kit" that I can get?
Thanks
John
Thanks
John
From a YAHOO, another thing i forgot about professionals besides getting paid is they never, ever admit to a mistake. Perfect people, doing everything perfect in a perfect way with no other outcome than perfect. I keep forgeting that. And they never have no time for yahoos.Now i will move on a little. You guys know the yahoo Bill Rusk who tried something just a little different and used AirTec glue on his Stewarts covering job, I seen a smile on that yahoo that was 4 feet wide. Mustve worked because ive havent heard 1 complaint on his work just comments hes very proud on what hes done. And from what ive seen it looks like very hobbiest style work.Lars maybe you should try a couple of the different glues, nothing to loose. Thats whats great about experimenting, eventually the right combination is found. YAHOO doug O ya i forgot, a professional surgeon in a near by town forgot a rag inside a yahoo before he was stitched up, a personal friend of mine. Very sorry Bill for using your name but i thought that was very cool trying something different to get the results you wanted. Very cool.
Last edited:
Tailwindflyer
Registered User
Ok, lots of information in this thread - thanks everyone for posting and sharing your experiences.
I am in the early stages of building a Rans S20 and am considering Oratex versus Stewarts' systems. I have zero experience with either and my priorities are:
1. No toxic fumes
2. Cost
3. Ease of the job
4. Weight
I am trying to consider the covering and finishing job as a whole, so painting costs and difficulties need to be factored in.
I really like the IDEA of Oratex, with no painting required, but am not yet convinced of the technicalities of the process.
I like the look of Corsair Blue and Silver, perhaps with the fuselage blue and wings/tail silver??
Can anyone help me compare the options?
cheers
Rich
I am in the early stages of building a Rans S20 and am considering Oratex versus Stewarts' systems. I have zero experience with either and my priorities are:
1. No toxic fumes
2. Cost
3. Ease of the job
4. Weight
I am trying to consider the covering and finishing job as a whole, so painting costs and difficulties need to be factored in.
I really like the IDEA of Oratex, with no painting required, but am not yet convinced of the technicalities of the process.
I like the look of Corsair Blue and Silver, perhaps with the fuselage blue and wings/tail silver??
Can anyone help me compare the options?
cheers
Rich
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Really? Maybe I am reading something into your post. I have looked at Oratex both painted and factory color and I didn't care for it either. I didn't care for the way I was treated when I started asking questions about it at New Holstein a few years ago either. Also didn't like being told I was biased because I was afraid it would take work away from me. I think it is a good product for some people just like dope, Stits and Stewarts. I use the system I use because I have it down and can produce a known result in a known amount of time with a known life expectancy. Yes I charge for what I do. That is how I make a living. I also help a lot of people who want to do it themselves. I have no issue with people wanting to do it themselves or to help. I have more work than I can do and don't feel threatened by others either doing their own work or helping me work on their airplane. Maybe I read your post wrong and I am just in a bad mood because my oil vendor jacked my cost up by 25% without telling me or the fact that I have been jacked around by JPI all week, treated like I am an idiot and wasted many hours trying to solve a simple issue and now I am screwed till they come back to work on Jan. 4th. Oh well, off to grill a fresh steak my daughter brought home.
Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
Doug,
From Webster: Yahoo.. A boorish, crash, or stupid person.
You obviously dont know Bill Rusk. Sir, Bill Rusk is no YAHOO. I am proud to call him my brother as a fellow graduate of the Air Force Fighter Weapons School. That is equivalent to a PhD in Fighter Pilot. Not to mention that he is an Airline Captain. He is a consumate Professional. He has admitted, like the rest of us "professionals", to lots of mistakes.
Dont let his humble, non assuming air fool you.
Your analogy is very faulty.
However, I will admit that there are a few members who are severely lacking in tact.
Last edited:
Tempdoug, just a comment on; experimenting with different glues and nothing to lose. Perhaps you are a chemist if so please take this with a grain of salt. These systems may or may not have compatible chemicals and procedures. Please go forth mixing and matching the different systems with an unknown risk attached. Steve Whitman comes to mind. The consistently best results come from using the products, procedures and instructions from the manufacturer of each system.
Sorry your not reading between the lines.
See it was quoted before theres professionals and hobby people, and i think theres some hobby people that are d*M good.
Last edited:
What kind?I'm just glad I already have a puppy.
Tidings of comfort and joy.
- Status
