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Progress on Javron Cub

wdoubleday

Registered User
Just completed fabrication of the metal headliner out of 0.16 2024 T3. Fuselage is ready for covering. Decided to go with Stewarts System after spraying Stits Aerothane on gear legs and struts. The hazards of isocyanates and MEK are not worth the risk. Being an organic chemist in biotech who has to deal with very toxic compounds makes you acutely aware of health hazards.
 

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Sure would like to see some recent pics.....mine is a little bit behind yours. I'm having a heck time of a trying to post a pic. yours sure looks good....are you going to make the headliner somewhat permanent
 
Making progress with the Stewarts system. Becoming easier as a first timer. As a drug developer who understands the hazards of toxicity from exposure to chemicals, folks really need to consider the risks of exposure to organic solvents, even acetone. Some solvents absord through the dermis into the bloodstream. The liver, kidney and heart are target organs as well as neurological funtion degradation. Sorry for the preaching but using organic solvent based covering systems absolutely requires the appropriate personal protection amd work area ventilation. It can be done safely. Just had to wear ‘moon suits’ too often in my work. For me, the water based Stewarts system is a good choice wrt ease of use and safety.


Some pics of my progress. Fabricated the headliner from 0.018 2024 T3 aluminum.
 

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Does your metal head liner come up to the bottom of the spar carry-thru? Flying in the back seat all the way to Alaska with an Atlee Dodge metal headliner that was straight across I noticed the limited headroom. I have been angling the front so that the headliner clears the flap pullies and comes right up to the bottom of the spar carry-thru. The plan pulley bolts on a Super Cub go in upside down so you can get them out after covering. They are bearing type pulleys and use self locking nuts.
 
Hey WDoubleday,

It's hard to tell from the pictures but you might want to wrap the fuel line where is bends around the corner of the side and rear liner. The tubing looks well supported but the panels might vibrate against it.
 
Wirewenie - I mounted my ELT antenna horizontal behind the upper baggage area with a hose clamp capture to prevent the antenna from whipping around near the trim cable runsIMG_0787.jpg

For the headliner, I snugged it up as much as possible to keep the flap pulleys on the upper side of the
headliner panel. The cable has sufficient clearance. I tried to minimize any slope down of the top headliner panel to maximize headroom. Good advice on wrapping the fuel tubing where it passes cost to the headliner - thanks!
 

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For all you guys that are sick of hearing me harp on ELT stuff, go ahead and roll your eyes now. Okay, that's done.

The pics above show your ELT tray mounted sideways. If it's just sitting there and not installed yet, my bad. If not, look at page 41 of the install manual. The arrows inside the tray need to be within 10 degrees of the long axis of the fuselage. And be aware that the mount location of all the 406 mhz ELT's must be extremely rigid. For this, see page 38, paragraph F.

As for the antenna, see page 42, paragraph B. It states that the antenna is to be installed vertically.

That's the book stuff.

After seeing a number of crashes up here, where the ELT never activated, and seeing the way many ELT's are mounted, I'm firmly convinced that the flimsy mounting is a big factor. If the mount is not rigid enough, it will flex or give enough to dampen the impulse of the crash. Remember: the new ELT's use accelerometers NOT mechanical G-switches. The test procedure for triggering the ELT differs from the old style, also. The old ELT's could just be smacked with the heel of your hand or bumped against the bench and they would trigger. That will never trigger a new style ELT. For those, you need to use a throwing motion. Grab it with both hands and throw it away from your body and snatch it back quickly. This will trigger the accelerometer (provide it's not broken).
And even if the ELT says it will trigger in multiple directions, they all have a specific direction they need to be mounted. Some have arrows on the unit or tray and some just say to mount the face forward. But all have specs for keeping the unit mounted within so many degrees of the longitudinal axis and most have a spec on allowances for tipping the unit up or down.
Stick antennas are designed to be mounted vertically. They work straight up or straight down. Just keep them vertical. If you could look down on an antenna and see the signal radiate, you would see the signal look like an expanding doughnut, starting at the antenna and just growing larger and larger. If you lay the antenna on its side, the 'doughnut' is also turned on it's side. Now, instead of seeing a growing ring, the signal looks more like a figure 8. Strong signal to the left and right but extremely weak at the tip and base. Also, these antennas need a ground plane under their base to work correctly. That means square inches of surface not just a ground tab or wire. I prefer using stainless screen glued to the inner surface of the fabric as the ground plane, then mount the antenna in the center of the screen. Another problem with mounting the antenna inside the fuselage is that you are surrounding the antenna with metal tubing. That makes a sort of Faraday cage (google it) around the antenna. At best, this will decrease the strength of the signal from the antenna. If you use metallic (aluminized) dope, on your fabric, it will make it worse. The most popular place to mount them up here, is just forward of the vertical stab. That way, if you nose over, the vertical will give the antenna some protection and hopefully the antenna remains vertical, also. If you end up upside down with the vertical crushed, there is probably no sense in worrying about it.

Web
 
Wireweinie,

Thank you for this information. Really appreciated. My logic was to protect the antenna by installing it within the fuselage cage, but your explanation of how the antenna radiates a signal makes sense. Mounting just forward of the vertical stab sounds like a good solution. I did mount my ELT sideways in the upper baggage area but will reinstall with a longitudinal orientation.
How are builders mounting the antenna on the center top stringer forward of the vertical stab? I’ve already covered my fuselage.

many thanks
Wendel
 
Thanks Stewartb,
I think I can snug such an aluminum plate underneath the fabric that is in place. Fortunately, I built in a rear belly panel for access. To the shop, with coffee!
wendel
 
I have mine mounted horizontal extending out the back of the upper baggage. I had a passenger do a operations check when he hit the ELT switch getting out of the plane. We had a phone call from the Rescue Squadron at the house in less then 10 min.

Web
I always look forward to your advice!! I may not always follow it, but, It is always welcome!!
DENNY
 
I have been mounting them inside the fuselage per the manufacturer's instructions. Mounted a few whip antennas on a bracket mounted to the back panel of the extended baggage.
 
ACK installation specifies the antenna must be within 30* of vertical when in level flight attitude. To do that internally in my plane would be a waste of space. External made better sense.
 
It's not exactly a state secret that I don't like internally mounted antennas. But, look at Mr Pierce's pics in #17 and #19. In the pic in #17 the antenna is mounted on a tab. In #19 it's mounted on an aluminum sheet. While #17 is electrically grounded, the effectiveness is going to be limited as there is very little metal surface under the base. In #19 the antenna is on a sheet which forms a true 'ground plane'. Remember that a ground plane is square inches of surface not just a ground strap or tab. On fabric, I like to use the screen as stated earlier. On composite panels, clean them with MEK and make an asterisk with aluminum or copper tape and mount the antenna in the center.

As an ELT is an emergency item, I'll never stand for 'good enough'. My goal is to install/maintain each one as close to perfectly as possible because I know why they may be used.

Web
 
By the way, these techniques for mounting the antennas applies to ANY antenna that transmits. Coms, marine band, transponder, DME are all vertically polarized antennas, so keep them straight up or down. VOR and glide slope, and ADF antennas are horizontally polarized. Transmitting antennas need a good ground plane or they will never work efficiently.

Web
 
Lets get together and design a gyro stabilized antenna mount. As the aircraft crumples it will always keep the antenna pointed up.

We're gonna be rich!

Web
 
by the end of the crash when the ELT is going off, might not be :)

Exactly what I was told when I spoke to an ACK technician on the phone. Asked him about mounting position. His response: "Well, what position is the airplane going to be in when you're done crashing?"

Personally, I realize that mounting an ELT antenna inside the fuselage may not be ideal, but that fuselage structure may just protect the antenna from damage in a crash.....depending, of course, upon how you end up crashing.

MTV
 
Exactly what I was told when I spoke to an ACK technician on the phone. Asked him about mounting position. His response: "Well, what position is the airplane going to be in when you're done crashing?"

Personally, I realize that mounting an ELT antenna inside the fuselage may not be ideal, but that fuselage structure may just protect the antenna from damage in a crash.....depending, of course, upon how you end up crashing.

MTV
Mike, that is exactly why I had Steve put it in the back where it would be protected.
 
By the way, these techniques for mounting the antennas applies to ANY antenna that transmits. Coms, marine band, transponder, DME are all vertically polarized antennas, so keep them straight up or down. VOR and glide slope, and ADF antennas are horizontally polarized. Transmitting antennas need a good ground plane or they will never work efficiently.

Web
Web,
I think that folks are easily confusing grounding a circuit with an antenna ground plane. The antenna ground plane being actually part of the antenna.
 
Web,
I think that folks are easily confusing grounding a circuit with an antenna ground plane. The antenna ground plane being actually part of the antenna.

That's why I pointed out Mr. Pierce's two pictures. Both antennas may be grounded electrically but one is attached to a small tab and the other is attached to an aluminum sheet. While both may 'work', the one mounted on the aluminum sheet (the ground plane for the antenna) will have a stronger signal, greater range, and higher efficiency.

On top of all that, just read the book. The install manuals all explain vertical mounts and ground plane fabrications.

Web
 
I went with the Kannad Integra ELT with the internal and external antenna. Couldn’t mount the external antenna inside the fuselage... even emailed the manufacturer in France asking for instructions.... must be externally mounted...and at a distance greater than xx” from other antennas. So mid point between the vertical stabilizer and the wing. Modified a stringer mount. Added a layer of fabric and applied copper foil to create a ground field. If I had a do over....would not sandwich the copper foil between two layers of fabric....like this...would tape it into position....cover and shrink...then apply tapes to the inside over the foil...
3fc2337ace0e0d379f556e780e111339.jpg
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ed594f518539ea13482fe9d91247ea22.jpg

Can see the copper foil wrinkles if you know where to look....but one needs to up close....within inches to see the surface defects in the paint.
8bd3e9f4d3d7219aa1821047c0f07824.jpg


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Lets get together and design a gyro stabilized antenna mount. As the aircraft crumples it will always keep the antenna pointed up.

We're gonna be rich!

Web

I don't think you were on here yet when we discussed where to mount on a float plane.. that ends up upside down in the water...... don't think there was a good answer....
 
That's why I pointed out Mr. Pierce's two pictures. Both antennas may be grounded electrically but one is attached to a small tab and the other is attached to an aluminum sheet. While both may 'work', the one mounted on the aluminum sheet (the ground plane for the antenna) will have a stronger signal, greater range, and higher efficiency.

On top of all that, just read the book. The install manuals all explain vertical mounts and ground plane fabrications.

Web
You don't think the extended baggage would act like a ground plane?

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