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Becker Com fails again

bob turner

Registered User
The Stearman has a Becker CU 5209, fed by a RT 3209. It goes back to someplace in Florida for two weeks out of every year, at around $500 a pop. It is probably time to junk it.

However, this time it is sort of locked in the "self-test" mode, with digits flashing on the screen, as if it is initializing. Is there any technique for "rebooting" these things? Or should I be recommending the trash can? We have a portable setup, so we can still fly, but what a pain!
 
I'd like to hear the exact repairs made the last few times it was sent for repairs. Is the 3209 sent with it, as a set? Has the harness been changed/replaced/modified?

My first guess, if it were in my shop, is that it's being 'spiked' or there is a poor power connection. Digital radios are fragile when it comes to damage from voltage spikes. These are from the collapse of the magnetic field around ANY coil. Bigger the magnetic field the bigger the spike. All solenoids (master and start relays) make spikes. You can hear them sometimes, in your headset when you engage the start solenoid. It's that pop sound when you release the key or start button. The worst in most aircraft is the starter motor itself. Large gauge wire making up very large coils with 100+ amps flowing through them. This is why all the old guys religiously shut off their electronics before start up. It's the only way to protect them.
As for poor power connections, they can cause low voltage available to the radio. Not normally an issue unless it's happening all the time. for example, most 12 volt radios will stop working correctly below 9 volts or so. If the radio is operated at the threshhold for extended periods of time, it can heat up circuits such as the power regulators. Heat kills. A bad connection at the positive OR at the ground will cause the same effect. The best way to check for this is with a system that has been on and warmed up well. Check the bus bar voltage. Now check the voltage on the input tab on the breaker, then the output tab. Remember that if corrosion is present the screw may have a lower voltage than the bus bar or terminal attached to it. Take voltage readings all the way to the back of the component. Check the pins at the connector to the radio. ANY drop in voltage indicates a problem, even a tenth or two. Do the same technique when checking the ground leg. If you see any voltage rise at all, it indicates a bad connection nearby.

Web
 
Thank you - that all makes sense. I have been meaning to take the bus voltage. A lot of the circuitry means I have to be upside down to check it - not a happy orientation currently.

The owners have started to be extremely careful about starting and shutdown with avionics off. I think we are at 100% on that, although I am mostly in the front cockpit and cannot see the switches.

Both units and the cable always go back to the factory. I am not impressed with the cable latching mechanism. Actually, I am not impressed with the entire setup. When we go to theportable, we use a Sigtronics SPO-22 N, which is better than the panel mount hooked in to the Becker.
 
The owners called the factory - they said it was a circuit board, and estimated $500 plus shipping. This will be the third $500 check they have written to Becker, and they are thinking it won't be the last, so we are going to get a bunch of GTN-200s and PM-501s and start over.

Maybe it isme - every Becker I have ever used has failed. My SL-40 is going on 15 years without a single problem.

Would they be better off getting it yellow tagged for eBay, ior selling it as-is?
 
Them Trig radios, the TY91, are pretty nice - I'm happy with mine. A built-in intercom that works well and an aux-in to boot!
 
The owners called the factory - they said it was a circuit board, and estimated $500 plus shipping. This will be the third $500 check they have written to Becker, and they are thinking it won't be the last, so we are going to get a bunch of GTN-200s and PM-501s and start over.

Maybe it isme - every Becker I have ever used has failed. My SL-40 is going on 15 years without a single problem.

Would they be better off getting it yellow tagged for eBay, ior selling it as-is?
How much could it bring on Ebay? $500? Opinion, don't throw more good money after bad, deposit it in the circular file and move on.
 
Trig has a 2 year warranty. Mid Continent Instruments and Avionics does the warranty work and if it goes back for warranty the warranty starts over. Haven't had anything go in for warranty but had some installation questions and Mid Continent was great to work with. Becoming a Trig dealer has been a win win for me. Fits the Super Cub perfectly.
 
I have have an XCOM for 7 years, which has been pretty reliable. It has a built-in mono intercom, which works fine even in the noisy Cub, although I don't know how well it will work in an open cockpit. I was blaming some audio muddiness on it, but it turned out to be the headset. They've made some firmware updates since then. It is not TSO'd, but I did get a field approval for VFR only.

It's tiny. It should fit in the same hole, but you'll need about six inches depth.
 
What ever radio you decide on (and the discussions on this will go on forever) if you are using it in an open cockpit or other high noise environment, look into using an intercom such as the PM1200. These types are actually made for open cockpits.

Web
 
No - the 1200 is not designed for wind noise, and does not work well even in a Legend Cub, where they are standard. The PM-501 has only one volume knob and an honest-to-God squelch knob, and really seems to work well. It requires adjustment between ground and flight. It is now a bit expensive, but my first one was $139, brand new.
 
I am using the built in Trig intercom with a VOX switch and separate intercom PTT for when the door is open. Door is closed I can flip the VOX switch and have a decent intercom.
 
Install what you want but the 1200 was designed for open cockpits and warbirds. This type has enough volume to power a headset over extreme noise. Wind noise problems have little to do with the box and much more to do with the mic. Make sure the mic has a sock on it or, better yet, a sock and a leather boot.

Web
 
I have been using the 501 with door open for 15 years. I spend most of my time in either Cubs with the door open or biplanes with open cockpits. I have flown two installations of the 1200, and do not care for it. The 501 can be left in the voice mode, and only hanging your head out the door breaks the squelch. I have not tried it in the Stearman yet, but when the Becker goes back we get really good service out of the SPO22N portable. It, too, has a squelch knob.

My only problem is teaching students which knob is the squelch knob. Can't point to it.
 
Yeah - that's the one. You young guys can probably see that small.

Pulled the Becker out, put the Icom A-20 in with the SPO-22N, and test- flew it today. Wildly successful - the intercom was orders of magnitude better than the ship's intercom. No complaints from the tower. Very little wind noise. Same headsets that drive the PM-1200 nuts.
 
The Stearman has a Becker CU 5209, fed by a RT 3209. It goes back to someplace in Florida for two weeks out of every year, at around $500 a pop. It is probably time to junk it.....

Removed for repair every year? IMHO it's long past time.
By contrast, the Narco 810 Com in my airplane was installed in 1992, and as far as I can tell by looking through the airplane records, it's never had to be messed with.
If it was me, I'd shitcan that Becker & install an Icom or Garmin com radio and never look back.
 
I agree - my Decathlon has that Narco 810R, and for me 15 years of trouble-free operation. I do not like the side tones and nav ID function, but it has the best memory circuits.

Yes - the Becker is going. It is pretty bad when a 20-year-old portable does a better job. I think the decision is the new Garmin. They are going to spend the $500 to fix the Becker and then sell it yellow tagged. If it was mine, I promise you the broken one would be on its way to Weenie right now, instead of Florida. Worthless POS.
 
I had Becker com radios in two Extras flying unlimited aerobatics (+/-) 8-9Gs and never had any problems with either one.

Jim
 
Aha! Potential customers! I have only flown two aircraft with Beckers - both failed at a rate of roughly once every 100 flight hours. Not my radios, not my bank account - but I did not like them because I had to get out the granny glasses to even find them, let alone understand the buttons. When they worked, and once programmed, they worked fine.

I am happy that these are considered really good radios - I note an SL-40 (used) went on eBay for more than the price of a new GTN-200, so I anticipate my buddies will get something like that?
 
Okay, just a run down.
You guys that have read some of my past posts know that I have strong opinions on radios and intercoms that I feel work well. Will a crappy unit work? Yes. Will it work well? No. As the owner, you make the final decision as to what unit will be installed in your aircraft. But as an installer I strongly recommend the units that I have found, through experience, will work the best. I strongly recommend against installing units that, again, have proven to not work well (for any reason). Since there is a lot of back and forth over audio installs, I am going to run through units that will work well on most if not all types of installations and some points concerning installation plans and workmanship.

First: Radios to avoid. Val-Com. Designed in the 70's and few changes since. No internal battery to hold the memory, which means that every time the unit is powered up, it comes up on a default freq and NOT on the freq you last used. Any Icom VHF made after the IC-A200. The -200 was a low cost replacement for the KY-97A and actually worked okay. The later models are prone to outside noise interference and squelch setting problems. Narco products. They had a place at one time. If you are happy with your Narco it means you have never had to have a major repair on it. There are reasons that they are no longer in business. And radios no longer in production have limited or no replacement parts available. For the 'miniature' radios, I only recommend Becker and Microair. Both will work well when properly installed with the correct wiring. Flight line, Xcom, etc. have all had noise issues and interference issues (Key up one radio and the other bleeds over, display flip flops, etc).

Second, intercoms: Sigtronics. 70's designs with few updates. Noisey, noisey, noisey. Did I mention noise issues? Their instructions still say it's okay to use unshielded wire and no isolation washers on the headphone jacks. Anyone that's done harnesses knows shielded wire and iso washers are ALWAYS used. It's just basic workmanship items that prevent noise issues. Flightcom. See Sigtronics.

Any audio system is vulnerable to poor installation planning and bad quality workmanship. When planning an installation, keep radios and intercoms away from anything that produces a magnetic field. Motors (like cooling fans and electric gyros) are especially bad. When the motor powers up it will make a whine on the audio lines that varies with the motor speed. Put your headset on and power up your panel. Here a whine that starts low and increases in pitch? That's a motor. Also plan out your installation to minimize any audio system wires from getting close to any coax antenna cables. Any system that transmits, such as radios (VHF or FM) and transponders will inject noise into adjacent wires. This is generally an extremely high pitch squeal. Audio wiring, when properly installed and using shielded wire can usually be bundled together. Coax cables should NEVER be bundled with each other OR with any other wires. In places like the windshield post areas where coax and audio wires are sometimes routed together, bundle the audio wiring tightly together and leave the coax loose. This is the best you can do to minimize interference when you have to route them through the same area. A tip when wires route in the same area: wires in parallel will interfere with each other, whereas wires that cross close to 90 degrees rarely do. ALWAYS use new circuit breakers with a new unit. Do you know the history of that breaker? Time installed, exposure to damp/water, exposure to salt air, etc can render a breaker inop. And you wont know until it fails to trip. And as I referenced in a post above, resistance across contacts creates a voltage drop, which reduces the voltage at the power input of the unit. Never try to reuse old wire and always clean up the avionics ground points when doing an install, for the same reason; bad connections. I can make a harness for a radio and intercom, out to four places, on my bench in four to six hours. If you develop a problem with your old harness when adapting it to the new system, how long will it take to troubleshoot it? Use the correct tool to install the correct contact to the wire. All of us have seen the pins 'crimped' to the wire with pliers or soldered when they were meant to be crimped. Those are methods used to get you home not for legit repairs or new installs. The tooling is available for sale, rental, or just plain borrowing. Get it and use it correctly. Don't ignore your grounds! Get an AC43 and see how to correctly build a ground stud. Put it on a clean spot on the airframe, without seams between it and the ground stud for the battery. It's a semi permanent install as you can remove and install grounds without removing the stud itself. Another tip is to never install airframe systems grounds with avionics systems grounds. At least keep them on separate studs. Over the course of many years, I've found that with 'trouble radios' when quality models are used, 90%+ have been wire issues and not the radios themselves. Think about it. Bench checking or repairing a radio over and over again and re installing it with the same harness and power/ground connections. What changed and what did not change? If the same repair is made each time, find find out what it is! If it is, say, the internal power supply, check your power and ground connections. Check the harness/connector for shorts between the power in and any other wires. Solder connectors are notorious for this as they are prone to individual strands of wire not being soldered but instead, touching terminals right next to them.

I'll be over here in my fox hole as I hear incoming fire already, lol.

Web
 
bob turner, I suggest that you have your friends with the faulty Becker remove it with all of it's wiring and ship to Palmer AK for Web to fix permanently.
 
Are you kidding? That is one of the most useful posts on this forum. No incoming from me, except the kind where you do not have to be in a foxhole. Thanks for taking the time.

I have not done as many installations as Web, but I subscribe to his points - I carefully shield everything, including headphone audio. My shilelds are grounded on one end, and not used for system ground.

I appreciate the hints about Icom - they seem to be racing downhill from what were good products. I like Garmin products, and hope I am not making a mistake recommending the new GTN-200. I personally use the PS Industries intercoms, and need a squelch knob. I have experience with Sigtronics, and like the portable we are using now, but am not thrilled with the 400 series and will replace them with PM-501s.

On the Becker - my recommendation was to dump it as-is, and if it was mine, I would have sent it to Web. I think fixing it will be a net loss, $ wise. I thought they had sent the cable, but I was wrong - it has no quick disconnects beteween it and the intercom and mic jacks. The factory says the problem is a $200 circuit board, so the repair could go higher than the usual $500.
 
Good information. One thing though, as long as I have been installing Sigtronics intercoms they depict, call out and provide isolation washers for the head phone jacks.
 
Good information. One thing though, as long as I have been installing Sigtronics intercoms they depict, call out and provide isolation washers for the head phone jacks.

Unless they have recently changed, they only put iso washers on the mic jacks. Unless you mount the jacks on non conductive surfaces, you should put iso washers on all mic, phone, and music jacks.

Web
 
Okay, just a run down.
You guys that have read some of my past posts know that I have strong opinions on radios and intercoms that I feel work well. Will a crappy unit work? Yes. Will it work well? No. As the owner, you make the final decision as to what unit will be installed in your aircraft. But as an installer I strongly recommend the units that I have found, through experience, will work the best. I strongly recommend against installing units that, again, have proven to not work well (for any reason). Since there is a lot of back and forth over audio installs, I am going to run through units that will work well on most if not all types of installations and some points concerning installation plans and workmanship.

First: Radios to avoid. Val-Com. Designed in the 70's and few changes since. No internal battery to hold the memory, which means that every time the unit is powered up, it comes up on a default freq and NOT on the freq you last used. Any Icom VHF made after the IC-A200. The -200 was a low cost replacement for the KY-97A and actually worked okay. The later models are prone to outside noise interference and squelch setting problems. Narco products. They had a place at one time. If you are happy with your Narco it means you have never had to have a major repair on it. There are reasons that they are no longer in business. And radios no longer in production have limited or no replacement parts available. For the 'miniature' radios, I only recommend Becker and Microair. Both will work well when properly installed with the correct wiring. Flight line, Xcom, etc. have all had noise issues and interference issues (Key up one radio and the other bleeds over, display flip flops, etc).

Second, intercoms: Sigtronics. 70's designs with few updates. Noisey, noisey, noisey. Did I mention noise issues? Their instructions still say it's okay to use unshielded wire and no isolation washers on the headphone jacks. Anyone that's done harnesses knows shielded wire and iso washers are ALWAYS used. It's just basic workmanship items that prevent noise issues. Flightcom. See Sigtronics.

Any audio system is vulnerable to poor installation planning and bad quality workmanship. When planning an installation, keep radios and intercoms away from anything that produces a magnetic field. Motors (like cooling fans and electric gyros) are especially bad. When the motor powers up it will make a whine on the audio lines that varies with the motor speed. Put your headset on and power up your panel. Here a whine that starts low and increases in pitch? That's a motor. Also plan out your installation to minimize any audio system wires from getting close to any coax antenna cables. Any system that transmits, such as radios (VHF or FM) and transponders will inject noise into adjacent wires. This is generally an extremely high pitch squeal. Audio wiring, when properly installed and using shielded wire can usually be bundled together. Coax cables should NEVER be bundled with each other OR with any other wires. In places like the windshield post areas where coax and audio wires are sometimes routed together, bundle the audio wiring tightly together and leave the coax loose. This is the best you can do to minimize interference when you have to route them through the same area. A tip when wires route in the same area: wires in parallel will interfere with each other, whereas wires that cross close to 90 degrees rarely do. ALWAYS use new circuit breakers with a new unit. Do you know the history of that breaker? Time installed, exposure to damp/water, exposure to salt air, etc can render a breaker inop. And you wont know until it fails to trip. And as I referenced in a post above, resistance across contacts creates a voltage drop, which reduces the voltage at the power input of the unit. Never try to reuse old wire and always clean up the avionics ground points when doing an install, for the same reason; bad connections. I can make a harness for a radio and intercom, out to four places, on my bench in four to six hours. If you develop a problem with your old harness when adapting it to the new system, how long will it take to troubleshoot it? Use the correct tool to install the correct contact to the wire. All of us have seen the pins 'crimped' to the wire with pliers or soldered when they were meant to be crimped. Those are methods used to get you home not for legit repairs or new installs. The tooling is available for sale, rental, or just plain borrowing. Get it and use it correctly. Don't ignore your grounds! Get an AC43 and see how to correctly build a ground stud. Put it on a clean spot on the airframe, without seams between it and the ground stud for the battery. It's a semi permanent install as you can remove and install grounds without removing the stud itself. Another tip is to never install airframe systems grounds with avionics systems grounds. At least keep them on separate studs. Over the course of many years, I've found that with 'trouble radios' when quality models are used, 90%+ have been wire issues and not the radios themselves. Think about it. Bench checking or repairing a radio over and over again and re installing it with the same harness and power/ground connections. What changed and what did not change? If the same repair is made each time, find find out what it is! If it is, say, the internal power supply, check your power and ground connections. Check the harness/connector for shorts between the power in and any other wires. Solder connectors are notorious for this as they are prone to individual strands of wire not being soldered but instead, touching terminals right next to them.

I'll be over here in my fox hole as I hear incoming fire already, lol.

Web

A lot of information there that might seem to be common sense, but is not commonly known to us neophytes!

Thanks for educating us, and your observation of some is equal to my experience as a user. My A-200 worked flawless in harsh conditions, so I still like Icom; but have not seen new ones for a while
 
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