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Help- Aileron and flap wing hinge hanger bracket dimensions?

Q

qsmx440

Registered User
Referencing the L21 13 rib wing diagram the aileron hangers are three each 10703. The two flap hangers are 10703-3 (inboard) and 10703-4 (outboard). The blueprint for those refers you to 10912-6 aileron hinge bracket assy for all ten pieces. The -6 designation indicates the base line dimension at 12 15/32 or "L" with a "rise dimension of 3 1/16 to the mounting hole. Those dimensions set the lengths and angle of the bracket to all being the same. As far as I can tell the hanger holes in the rear spar are all drilled at 2 5/16 above the bottom of the spar (actually the last aileron hanger is 1/32 difference but whatever. So my problem is with the hangers all having the same identical mounting hole to pivot hole dimension and mounting angle, the spar having the same height holes but the aileron and flap hinges have different heights themselves? I think the flap bottoms would be higher 7/8" or so than the aileron bottoms and I know that's not right. I am aware they use different false spar clamps and probably come through the false spar at different levels but that would put pressure on the spar web based with the fixed angle built into the 10912-7 bracket assy, not good for the spar! Can any of you straighten me out on this? Or does anyone have a set of wing hangers for flaps/ailerons they can compare the lengths of and are the bracket attach angles actually the same? The way it looks to me the bottom of the flaps would sit 7/8" higher than the ailerons all things equal? I've been going round and round all afternoon on this so thought I would ask for help before building the hangers. I think the flap and aileron hangers should first be different lengths and second the mounting bracket should have different angles built into them. Any one understand what I am saying and have any enlightenment for me?? Again this isn't about the "clamps"(12056, 12056-2 and 10931). I am aware the false spare shapes are different. Thank you in advance...
 
Last edited:
qsmx440 said:
Referencing the L21 13 rib wing diagram the aileron hangers are three each 10703. The two flap hangers are 10703-3 (inboard) and 10703-4 (outboard). The blueprint for those refers you to 10912-6 aileron hinge bracket assy for all ten pieces. The -6 designation indicates the base line dimension at 12 15/32 or "L" with a "rise dimension of 3 1/16 to the mounting hole. Those dimensions set the lengths and angle of the bracket to all being the same. As far as I can tell the hanger holes in the rear spar are all drilled at 2 5/16 above the bottom of the spar (actually the last aileron hanger is 1/32 difference but whatever. So my problem is with the hangers all having the same identical mounting hole to pivot hole dimension and mounting angle, the spar having the same height holes but the aileron and flap hinges have different heights themselves? I think the flap bottoms would be higher 7/8" or so than the aileron bottoms and I know that's not right. I am aware they use different false spar clamps and probably come through the false spar at different levels but that would put pressure on the spar web based with the fixed angle built into the 10912-7 bracket assy, not good for the spar! Can any of you straighten me out on this? Or does anyone have a set of wing hangers for flaps/ailerons they can compare the lengths of and are the bracket attach angles actually the same? The way it looks to me the bottom of the flaps would sit 7/8" higher than the ailerons all things equal? I've been going round and round all afternoon on this so thought I would ask for help before building the hangers. I think the flap and aileron hangers should first be different lengths and second the mounting bracket should have different angles built into them. Any one understand what I am saying and have any enlightenment for me?? Again this isn't about the "clamps"(12056, 12056-2 and 10931). I am aware the false spare shapes are different. Thank you in advance...
Click to expand...


you lost me after 73 words.... (keep it BREIF!)

but a PA-12 and a -18 are different lengths (behind rear spar) if that helps to muddy up you water :)
 
Thanks for the reply Mike. I'll try to shorten it:

The hangers for the flaps and the ailerons, Are they all (ten of them) the same length from the spar mounting hole (AN5) to the pivot hole in the aluminum block? I know they have different brackets where they attach to the false spars? For an L21 (PA18-150).
 
Mike's right. Paragraph's help. I've only read your second post.

The basic flap hanger and the basic aileron hanger are the same, but because the flap hinge on the flap is longer they have to be located differently. Basically Piper relied on the flexibility of the spar web to achieve this.

If you're making them, make the angle different. (I've made some of these for my homebuilt, some to go…..)

Andrew.
 
MainlandCub said:
Mike's right. Paragraph's help. I've only read your second post.

The basic flap hanger and the basic aileron hanger are the same, but because the flap hinge on the flap is longer they have to be located differently. Basically Piper relied on the flexibility of the spar web to achieve this.

If you're making them, make the angle different. (I've made some of these for my homebuilt, some to go…..)

Andrew.
Click to expand...


"Basically Piper relied on the flexibility of the spar web to achieve this." Great! So there it is. I wasn't going crazy. I mean it's only got to bend a little. Thank you. It's good to know they are all the same length.


"
 
I've SPECIAL ordered Univair Pa-12/-14 flap hangers and they sent -18 hangers, which are different/wrong... think they don't know whats right :-(
 
Well if you sit down with the wing hanger 12778 layout diagram for some quality time, it says for the L21 you reference figure 14 for all three aileron hangers. Fig 14 leads you part number 10703. When you go to blueprint 10703 it indicates you use "bracket" 10912-6. When you go to blueprint 10912 the -6 on the chart indicates the "L" (base line) length to be 12 15/32" run. The height for all 10912 brackets is 3 1/16" so the angle is now "fixed" by those two dimensions. Enough with the ailerons.

Ok so you go back to the wing diagram and find the flap hangers. You are sent to figures 22 and 26 where you get sent to 10703-3 and 10703-4 which both send back to 10912-6 for the basic dimensions and angle. Ok so the basic hangers are all identical. At this point I figured the spar holes for the flap hangers would be 3/4" lower or so and then all the control surface bottoms would line up with the bottom of the wing.

I pull out 14453 rear spar diagram expecting to find the lower flap holes offset a little lower but no they all are drilled at 2 5/16 above the spar cap bottom. At this point I started circling round and round until I ask you folks for help as I knew this isn't right. Either I'm doing something wrong here or Piper screwed up and no one noticed for 70 years or these old diagrams were corrected in newer ones ( these are from Christians site) or ?

I don't know how to abbreviate the problem any more than I did but I apologize for my poor writing. This is a rabbit hole and I was hoping to find a proper "perfect" solution that included me missing something that put the universe back in order.

I should say I think it's crappy if it turns out that the solution is to bend the center of the spar web to "fit". Maybe it's worked forever but really?
 
Dunno if this will help, but when I was rigging my hinge brackets I fastened straight boards to the bottom of the wing ribs, and laid the control surfaces on them. I was then able to fine-tune the bracket locations so that leading and trailing edges of the ailerons and flaps lined up nicely.
 
Gordon Misch said:
Dunno if this will help, but when I was rigging my hinge brackets I fastened straight boards to the bottom of the wing ribs, and laid the control surfaces on them. I was then able to fine-tune the bracket locations so that leading and trailing edges of the ailerons and flaps lined up nicely.
Click to expand...

Thank you Gordon. That's what I am planning to do but now but I guess I have to build the wing main structure before building those hangers. I was trying to get all the parts built for the wing before building the wing. Did you happen to notice if when you installed the hangers the mountings were "cocked" slightly at the spar AN5 mounting bolt on either the flap or the aileron hangers? Or did you adjust your spar holes to make it right?
 
I just adjusted the hole locations for the flap hangers. If I recall correctly, the locations were a little different than the print showed. I definitely would not want to try to deform the spar web.
 
Gordon Misch said:
Dunno if this will help, but when I was rigging my hinge brackets I fastened straight boards to the bottom of the wing ribs, and laid the control surfaces on them. I was then able to fine-tune the bracket locations so that leading and trailing edges of the ailerons and flaps lined up nicely.
Click to expand...

basically how i do it to, except i have bolts and washers through my strait edges that clamp down seam and trailing edge to the strait edge... then i rivet the aileron or flap spar with it mounted ON THE WING, WITH PROPER TWIST in wing... so every thing lines up as close as possible....

i thought i have pictures in my picasa link bellow but can't find them at the moment...
 
qsmx440 said:
Thank you Gordon. That's what I am planning to do but now but I guess I have to build the wing main structure before building those hangers. I was trying to get all the parts built for the wing before building the wing. Did you happen to notice if when you installed the hangers the mountings were "cocked" slightly at the spar AN5 mounting bolt on either the flap or the aileron hangers? Or did you adjust your spar holes to make it right?
Click to expand...

They wave around a bit until you fasten the hangars to the trailing edge cove.
 
So I have come across a similar problem with the aileron hangers (PA-18 150).
My centre aileron hanger at the spar is almost against the strut point reinforce.
The inboard and outboard aileron hanger pivot points (centre of aluminium block at end of hanger) ends up being slightly lower then the centre aileron hangers pivot point (if using Spar drilling diagram drawing). Anyone else come across this.

Centre aileron can't come down (strut reinforce in the way), which means inboard and outboard need to go up, or can do custom end blocks (for centre only-slightly down or inner and outer- slightly up) in aluminium to line up the three centres.
I have not yet built the ailerons, so can't fit to check the bottom of the wing bottom edge to aileron bottom edge
Thanks,
Neal.
 
There is a lot of variance in the hinges to false spar attachment. I would not drill the false spar to aileron attach brackets until you have the ailerons.

20170723_203324.jpg
Notice they used screws instead of the steel rivets to hold the hinge block on the hinge bracket.
20170723_203300.jpg
 

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Folks
I have probably made a big error in fixing the aileron hinge brackets - going to be a pain to adjust them!

However when I had the aileron and the wing lower surfaces aligned the brackets were flexing the spar web which I was not happy about. I therefore riveted the brackets to the false spar such that there was no flexing of the web. This has resulted in the aileron sitting 3/8” high relative to the wing.

Would this be considered acceptable or would it effect the handling in terms of aileron drag too much?

Thanks all
Frank

IMG_6070.jpeg
 
There are reports that if both wings/ailerons are not the same, the airplane will fly funny. Is the other aileron the same as this one?
 
Worked on lots of early Pipers, J-3, PA15, 16 and 17 that the hinges were all over the place. Some had the aileron bowed in the middle due to the misalignment of the inboard and outboard hinges. Could rig it to fly straight but always bugged me. I would cut little pieces of the fabric out to access the rivets in the false spar and realign.
 
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