Newbie Looking for some guidance

Hey everyone! First post here but i've been browsing for a while now.... sooo, I hope this is the right forum for now, and I'll try to keep this quick

I've had my PPL for about 5 years now, and my wish is to build a Super Cub over the course of the next 5 to 6 years. I'm not just looking for a cheap plane, and I also realize the how large of a commitment it really is, but I love building and fabrication, and that is honestly a main motivator behind choosing to build instead of buy. Right now I'm in the pre-planning stage and I'm trying to figure the things out that I need to get a start and make sure I'm prepared for any problems along the way.

So now the questions...

1. There is a ton information on the world of home building, so what is the best resource, forum, book, guide, etc. to figure out what documentation I need to maintain while building? Is there an experimental bible out there?

2. When welding a fuselage from scratch, is it necessary to build fixture/jigging for alignment or can it be done just with tacking and measurements. Does a pre-profiled/notched tubing kit help like the one from VR3 Engineering help? or is it just more of a time saver?

3. Are there any negative restrictions to experimental aircraft besides being unable to be used for commercial purposes?

4. Are the plans from Northland any different than the plans from Christian Sturm's website?

Thank you everyone for your patience, you all have great website, and I'm looking forward chatting more with everyone.

-Brett

The EAA has a home builders packet that covers all the paperwork and documentation requirements, a good place to start. Tony Bingelis has a series of books for home builders that are real good. He covers the basics of steel tube welding, metalwork, aircraft construction etc. Worth th cost in my opinion.
Also, this is not Cub specific but a fellow named Eric Newton has a Bearhawk build manual of his Bearhawk he built from scratch which has a lot of good detail for tube and fabric construction. Search him on line.

Some info from another newby here on aspects I am experienced in, there will be others soon.

2) I greatly prefer a jig at least till the structure holds itself up. I prefer a steel jig simply because it is conductive, this just makes the early stages easier due to the ground path for welding. Nothing wrong with a wood jig though other than when all the welding current travels through a tube, the tube becomes strongly magnetic. Much of my tubing work is done on a cast iron table that is 28" wide 7' long. I clamp or bolt extensions to this as needed for a structure. In something like a fuselage I want to hold the firewall structure that I pre welded, and the tailpost with a number of stations supported between. I have built fuselages that each side was built then stood up and the horizontal tubes added between.
The Cub I would build the upper longerons from cabin back, set them aside. Then build the lower fuselage, the upper longerons are added to to this.
The upper birdcage would be another sub assembly, pre built then added above the rest of the structure.
Build order is important for efficiency.

Notched kit or your labor, that is different for each person depending on your abilities and funding.

Making out the bill of materials can be time consuming, storing the full length tube takes time and space.
Cutting and notching the tubes, only you can answer that, it has to do with your experience and tooling. I personally notch tubes on a mill, the task goes fast for me since I make my living doing this. Decades back I had a few 8" bench grinders that I contoured the wheels, this sat next to my work space and a tube end could be dressed quickly. Sometimes 0.028 wall tube is hard to work with hard tools.
If you are not tooled up for this but more able to fund a pre notched kit, that is the way to go. Someone else has spent the time with the BOM, notching as well as inventory and labeling. Big work, you will be paying for their expertise.

4) In the recent months I find value in both. Either I am missing something but the Northland CD is missing many drawings that Christian Sturm's website does have. I am finding with a drawing open from Northland that refers to a sub drawing, that part is much faster to be found on Christian's site. The small parts might well be on the CD, I just can not find them.
Thank you Christian for your work and hosting of this great resource.

Charlie N.

Brute said:

4. Are the plans from Northland any different than the plans from Christian Sturm's website?

Click to expand...

Yes they are. I would also get the Vagabond Drawing CD from the Short Wing Piper Club for the small parts.
https://www.shortwingpiperclub.org/...rials/vagabond-drawings-vol-1/?v=7516fd43adaa

Bearhawk Builder said:

The EAA has a home builders packet that covers all the paperwork and documentation requirements, a good place to start. Tony Bingelis has a series of books for home builders that are real good. He covers the basics of steel tube welding, metalwork, aircraft construction etc. Worth th cost in my opinion.
Also, this is not Cub specific but a fellow named Eric Newton has a Bearhawk build manual of his Bearhawk he built from scratch which has a lot of good detail for tube and fabric construction. Search him on line.

Click to expand...

Thanks a ton, just ordered some of his books!

CharlieN said:

Some info from another newby here on aspects I am experienced in, there will be others soon.

2) I greatly prefer a jig at least till the structure holds itself up. I prefer a steel jig simply because it is conductive, this just makes the early stages easier due to the ground path for welding. Nothing wrong with a wood jig though other than when all the welding current travels through a tube, the tube becomes strongly magnetic. Much of my tubing work is done on a cast iron table that is 28" wide 7' long. I clamp or bolt extensions to this as needed for a structure. In something like a fuselage I want to hold the firewall structure that I pre welded, and the tailpost with a number of stations supported between. I have built fuselages that each side was built then stood up and the horizontal tubes added between.
The Cub I would build the upper longerons from cabin back, set them aside. Then build the lower fuselage, the upper longerons are added to to this.
The upper birdcage would be another sub assembly, pre built then added above the rest of the structure.
Build order is important for efficiency.

Notched kit or your labor, that is different for each person depending on your abilities and funding.

Making out the bill of materials can be time consuming, storing the full length tube takes time and space.
Cutting and notching the tubes, only you can answer that, it has to do with your experience and tooling. I personally notch tubes on a mill, the task goes fast for me since I make my living doing this. Decades back I had a few 8" bench grinders that I contoured the wheels, this sat next to my work space and a tube end could be dressed quickly. Sometimes 0.028 wall tube is hard to work with hard tools.
If you are not tooled up for this but more able to fund a pre notched kit, that is the way to go. Someone else has spent the time with the BOM, notching as well as inventory and labeling. Big work, you will be paying for their expertise.

4) In the recent months I find value in both. Either I am missing something but the Northland CD is missing many drawings that Christian Sturm's website does have. I am finding with a drawing open from Northland that refers to a sub drawing, that part is much faster to be found on Christian's site. The small parts might well be on the CD, I just can not find them.
Thank you Christian for your work and hosting of this great resource.

Charlie N.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I figured the jigs are going to be the best thing for at least setting the tacks in, I'm wanting to do things the proper way, but if it can be done without I'm all for that too. I'm worried about shrinkage though as well (who isn't). I've been tig welding for a couple years now, on mostly on firearm parts for gunsmith work and restoration, but I've never done tube or framework, looking forward to learning that however.

Regarding the construction order, is there any specific plans to follow or is it trial and error/ common sense for the most part?

Steve Pierce said:

Yes they are. I would also get the Vagabond Drawing CD from the Short Wing Piper Club for the small parts.
https://www.shortwingpiperclub.org/...rials/vagabond-drawings-vol-1/?v=7516fd43adaa

Click to expand...

Thanks, haven't heard of them, I'll check them out!


Much appreciated for everyone's help!

I expect there are structures built without a jig but damn these tubes want to move when you weld them. At a minimum the first joints need to be stabilized, welded & straightened. Then you could work from there but I sure like to have things held in place.
Keep in mind just because something is jigged it will not move when released after welding due to built up stresses.

Construction order, I doubt it would be in writing anywhere.
I approach projects as what sub assemblies can be made then put in place later.

I would weld up the firewall since this can be bolted to a jig.
Then top of the birdcage, if I could get as far as the wing mount tabs would be wonderful but might not be doable.
The upper longerons, if you have door on each side this is easy otherwise determine if the long side is full length or has a splice.
Then the actual work begins from the bottom.

Back to thoughts of a jig. I would want at a minimum a table, if in wood, 8' long, plywood top, width your choice but a bit wider than the fuse would be nice. Jig structure might be 1x6 or 1x8 framework. Stand up two board to pickup the firewall.
A long board off the other end to hold the tailpost. Is your Vfin welded in place or bolted as original? I prefer welded.
Now lay the lower longerons in place, clamp as needed.
If you add structure from the front you can release the longerons to check for distortions building up. Deal with these as you go.
Keep in mind tubes subs such as lower longerons are longer than the simple distance from FW to tailpost. Some will build the lower tubes flat then lift them into there 3D shape later, they will be a little short. I prefer to work in 3D.
The table should allow boards to be screwed to the sides to pickup the upper longerons so that "kit" can be held in place. Then that structure can be built out and so forth.

There are different schools on the welded structure, tack weld everything the final weld once all together has been the historic method.
For me since I work on many different structures I work in a more modern way, each sub assembly get built out and welded as much as possible. Since I build structures that are higher loaded than fuselages this is desired. This is actually more important to me now that I am in my '60s and just can not get into and hold the positions our body needs to be in to see and get a finicky weld done.

Another thing to consider, tube venting. Most every tube I add, a small hole gets drilled to the parent tube so the pressures can normalize during welding. You will be amazed how a weld puddle can blow out when you are adding something to a closed structure. This venting may not be general practice still but is something I have become used to doing.

normalize your welds with acetalene, ill never care what anybody says but unless you do this you'll have welds punching glass numbers with a Rockwell hardness tester. its a major safety thing that people debate with no evidence or hands-on education.

if your gona scratch build pa-18 I'd highly recommend widening the fuselage at least 3 inches, you'll love yourself in the end.

I vent any tube less then 4 ft long.

tube seal the frame, itll last a lifetime

if you win the lottery or just give up, let me know ill build it for ya

Brute said:

Hey everyone! First post here but i've been browsing for a while now.... sooo, I hope this is the right forum for now, and I'll try to keep this quick

I've had my PPL for about 5 years now, and my wish is to build a Super Cub over the course of the next 5 to 6 years. I'm not just looking for a cheap plane, and I also realize the how large of a commitment it really is, but I love building and fabrication, and that is honestly a main motivator behind choosing to build instead of buy. Right now I'm in the pre-planning stage and I'm trying to figure the things out that I need to get a start and make sure I'm prepared for any problems along the way.

So now the questions...

1. There is a ton information on the world of home building, so what is the best resource, forum, book, guide, etc. to figure out what documentation I need to maintain while building? Is there an experimental bible out there?

2. When welding a fuselage from scratch, is it necessary to build fixture/jigging for alignment or can it be done just with tacking and measurements. Does a pre-profiled/notched tubing kit help like the one from VR3 Engineering help? or is it just more of a time saver?

3. Are there any negative restrictions to experimental aircraft besides being unable to be used for commercial purposes?

4. Are the plans from Northland any different than the plans from Christian Sturm's website?

Thank you everyone for your patience, you all have great website, and I'm looking forward chatting more with everyone.

-Brett

Click to expand...

Brett,
I was in the same position as yourself several years ago, and fortunately I had a chance to see Christian Sturm's experimental SC at the Arlington WA fly-in. He bought a tack welded basic fuselage frame from someone, and recommended that I contact Javron in MN who supplies SC kits and parts. The SC is really a complex fuselage when compared to some more traditional homebuilts. I had experience in welding up a single place pitts fuselage and a Steen Skybolt, both of which are easy to do on a level plywood table using wooden and metal jigs to hold fuselage and fittings in place. After looking at the SC cub, I decided to buy a basic fuselage frame from Jay at Javron with the critical welds fittings completed. All I can say is that it saved me alot of time and effort for a modicum price. It was really worth it. Jay has square steel tube frames that allow him to manufacture fuselages as like a production line. This ensures accurate alignment to a greater degree than most homebuilders could achieve.
There are a number of options for the wings out there like Backcountry Cubs or D&E aircraft. I decided to stick with Jay for all of my parts.
It all depends on the sweat equity you want to put into it - how much you do yourself versus the spend on buying completed or kit components.
Good luck
Wendel

you can build the pieces just on a sheet of ply wood with nails to hold the tubes till tacked, no jig...

But as you weld it moves around some from the heat, so you must constantly measure and keep track of things.... using a solid jig is faster, as you just weld away and every thing is stuck in right place....

If the jig is correct

so confirm that first, and don't ask why this has come up:evil:

Here are some photos of my Piper L-4 project for reference if your interested. I try to update the pictures as the build progresses.

Cheers,
keri-Ann

Keri-Ann, nice example of building jigs to get the job done, very nice.
Charlie

Great set up.

We're always discussing folding seat backs. Keri-ann has gone further and has a folding seat! I feel inadequate now.

Web

Nice shop, Keri-Ann. Are those burn marks on the floor from welding or are they knots? :lol:

Very nice work also. Thanks for sharing.

Have you thought about starting a thread in the Members projects forum?

Wayne

Womenfly2 said:

Here are some photos of my Piper L-4 project for reference if your interested. I try to update the pictures as the build progresses.

Cheers,
keri-Ann

Click to expand...

That's amazing work. How do you like the JD tubing notcher?

So after much deliberation and consideration and a ton more research, I have actually switched paths and ordered plans for a bearhawk patrol. I believe that the bearhawk is a lot better suited for a builder like myself and with the equipment and space that I have available to me. The top speed and endurance of the BHP have a huge advantage over the Super Cub for the style of flying I will be doing. Thank you all for your help!

Brute said:

So after much deliberation and consideration and a ton more research, I have actually switched paths and ordered plans for a bearhawk patrol. I believe that the bearhawk is a lot better suited for a builder like myself and with the equipment and space that I have available to me. The top speed and endurance of the BHP have a huge advantage over the Super Cub for the style of flying I will be doing. Thank you all for your help!

Click to expand...

Please don't run away in fear of not belonging! Plenty of room and experience around here to be having updates on this project. Only downside of the Bearhawks I saw last fall was that I could not afford one. Amazing aircraft, with some great performance. A plane built by a mechanic that wanted to do off airport work.

What could be better?

I'm planning on sticking around for a bit, still got plenty of time to own a supercub too! I'm pretty stuck on welding my own fuselage, and the bearhawk was pretty much designed for homebuilders.

A gentleman in my local EAA chapter has built a patrol as well so I can hopefully pick his brain and use his plane for help.

This forum has a ton of experience from the backcountry and I think that's enough reason to stick around!

"Here are some photos of my Piper L-4 project" -------Wow
How about telling us more about your build ?
Doug

Good choice (from a fellow Bearhawk Patrol builder)

Congratulations on your decision. I made the same choice to build a Patrol, but elected to go with the kit, since I'm not much of a welder... Almost a year into it now, and hope to be flying in a couple more years... LOL That's what they all say!