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edo 2960s coverted to 2870s

skukum12

MEMBER
The Last Frontier
Is it a problem for a certified plane (C 180) to run a set of edo floats that have been converted to 2870 from 2960? I am talkimg problem as in paperwork and legalities. I dont have intricate float knowledge and have never heard of modifiing floats from one model to the next. Thanks everyone.
 
The only difference was an added little float bay on the tails. With they're 2960s, without they're 2870s. As for paper? No idea. I had both on my 180 but my J model is approved for both.
 
This topic has come up from time to time always ending up in a dead end. As stewart says it is only 22" chopped off the aft end with a 2870 aft bulkhead and rudder post riveted on. As far as paper work goes, if you have a good relationship with a FSDO inspector, get yourself a field approval. IF not, it would depend on where you live and how knowledgeable about floats your local IA is. If float knowledge is low, just do it. Make sure that you do not disturb the 2960 data plate. Then it is likely no one will ever notice. 8) You didn't hear this here.

Whatever your reason for doing this, I found the extra flotation of the 2960 to be helpful. Your piloting techniques can be adjusted to restore the perceived performance deficiency. For example slightly rolling up on one (left for prop torque reasons) float while simultaneously pulling back on the wheel along with a little extra flap pull. Rather than keeping wings level and just pulling, thus dragging the tails. I have won takeoff contests (grand champion at Greenville ME) with 2960s against other floats and pilots who hated the 2960s. This usually led to lengthy float discussions. Their complaints were centered around dragging tails.
 
I have good relations with several local IAs so a little chat with them should go a long way. The floats have already been converted and are for sale. I just dont wish to buy something like this and get left holding the bag so to speak.
 
.... The floats have already been converted and are for sale. I just don't wish to buy something like this and get left holding the bag so to speak.
Don't forget that regardless of whether you can get satisfactory approval or not, that you will be limited in your flotation which amounts to a gross weight limitation. Don't buy these floats if you have a serious under sized float for your model 180. I don't know your experience level but be aware that small floats can more easily submerge or capsize particularly in high wind/wave conditions. The 2870s were intended for the early 180s which were lighter and had lower gross weights than the post 1970 airplanes.
 
2870s were approved at 3200# for early 185s, weren't they? Maybe even at 3350#? Float nomenclature does not indicate gross weight limits.

Edit- early 185s were approved on 2870s at 3190# gross (TCDS). My perception of the difference between 2870s and 2960s is how easily the tails of the floats go under water. All EDOs had big, bulbous bow areas that floated high when compared to other floats. It isn't uncommon to taxi along with water flowing over the top of two or three of the aft bays. The added compartment on the 2960s helped with that. By contrast I had water flowing over the full length of my PeeKays a few times. I liked EDOs. (never got the chance to own Aerocets)
 
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The maximum certifiable gross weight for EDO 2870s is 3188 lbs. EDO's model number represents the float's flotation in fresh water. This is true for all of EDO's floats. To calculate the maximum allowable water gross weight divide the EDO model number by 0.9. 2870/.9=3188.8 Other float manufacturers may use another numbering system.
 
for anyone looking, i have a set of 2960's with all the 180 rigging for sale. FWIW i found rolling a float and using the trim instead of pulling back on the yoke always got me in the air the quickest and by doing this i never dug the heals.
 
I owned a 66 H model 180 on EDO 2870 straight floats. Arguably the best all around floatplane I ever flew for personal use. I don't remember the numbers exactly all these years later, but that airplane had a seven pound lower useful load than the brand new 1985 Cessna 185 on PeeKay 3500s that I flew a few years later. The 185 got off the water quicker, but that 180 was no slouch, and the floats were just right in size. Note that I did not have a GW increase, however.

Ive always thought that combination was the perfect setup on a 180.
MTV
 
Kenmore used to have later model 180's on the line when
I got my Comm/ Inst ratings there in 1979, I used to shuffle them back and forth to Bangor Submarine base all the time, having cut my teeth in 180's pre 64's , I hated
Those 2960 Floats, and always felt a early light 180 was
More floated on 2870's in a big wind than a later Heavier models are on 2960's.
It is true that you can get them off light, just about as quick if you want to pop the flaps and basically "Jack it" into the air, not a cool or professional style with passengers on board, that are often afraid of small planes,to begin with.
When PK came out with the 3000 Floats, folks around here could not peal The 2960s off fast enough, the 3000's have WAY more aft floation, flat tops, big hatches, and great performance, without the longer lenght, when heavily loaded aft (all the time in airtaxi)I would vastly rather fly off 3000's... And a good 185 on 3000s is a rocket! Jm2cw
 
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There is such thing as a 2870 "M" (for "modified) that effectively turns a 2870 into a 2960. Based on that, maybe there's a 2960 "M" that technically makes them 2870s? The "M" is stamped on the data plates. I have not heard of modifying floats to make them "smaller"...usually mods make them "bigger". Maybe see if your data plates have an "M" stamped behind the model number. It might help with the FAA end of things?

The original Found FBA2c was certified on the 2870 "M" but not the 2960 so 2960s are not legal to use on it...despite being the same float except for the noticeable splice on the deck channels! Paperwork often equals semantics ;-)!

I have flow both floats on 180's and I prefer the the 2960...by quite a bit.
 
LoL
Well I know of dozens of sets that have been hacksawed off to make 2960 back into 2870's
but never knew anyone that wanted to make a set of 2960's out of 2870 except Edo ....
Glad you have enjoyed your 2960 floats ,
E
 
That's really interesting...fill me in on the hacked off 2960s...I'd like to know what the motivation is for shortening the floats. I'm probably missing something. I'm always up for learning the "weird and wonderful" nuances of float certification. OK...I have no life...besides, it sounds like this is exactly what the OP is looking for!

Do the "hacksawed" floats have paperwork? 'Cause...we all know that the lift coefficient is directly related to the weight of the paperwork :wink:!
 
Motivation was, with a 180 on 2960's is usually consider less desirable to alot of Skywagon guys, however there are some guys that do like them. The hacksawing the last compartment has been a common cure for those of us, that felt they where toooooo long, and when heavily loaded were a pita........... and baring the "Curtis Jerk" accompanying a full hand full of flaps to get it to break water, a C180 could become a speedboat on hot days and no wind.......... the shorter lenght usually prefered of the 2870 floats was the main reason so many 2960 have been hacked. Now paperwork, thats a whole different story, some have it(folks that could get "next" to a inspector for one time FA) most of course dont have paperwork. In todays world of folks petrified to take off without a PMA'd airfreshener, alot of things that were commonly done to improve performance would be frowned upon today.
 
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That's really interesting...fill me in on the hacked off 2960s...I'd like to know what the motivation is for shortening the floats. I'm probably missing something. I'm always up for learning the "weird and wonderful" nuances of float certification. OK...I have no life...besides, it sounds like this is exactly what the OP is looking for!
Reread paragraph 2 in post #3. Those other pilots are the same ones to which Turbo refers.
Do the "hacksawed" floats have paperwork? 'Cause...we all know that the lift coefficient is directly related to the weight of the paperwork :wink:!
Paperwork? "We don't need no stinking paperwork". There are some regions of this great land where paper is only used for one thing. :lol:
 
8a; Lol,
I knew as soon as you had your coffee, this was sure bring a rise outta you! Lol Bring yours up here this summer and we will load em both up till the rear compartments on your 2960's are under water, I will grab my neighbors 185 on PK 3000 ( which will not be under water with the exact same aft load as yours.) And we will try them to see which one is the true Champion with a big load, just for fun!
E
 
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Ha! I knew that you were awake this morning. My 2960s were replaced with 3500s years ago. I agree with you that those PK 3000s do an excellent job for all of the reasons which you have stated. Also if I were offered a free choice of 2960s vs 3000, the wise choice would be the 3000.

It was fun all those years ago testing one against the other. There was almost zero difference between the two and we each were stripped down to fighting weights. I'm sure that you will agree that the technique and the pilot can make the difference.
 
I don't know if you can get a 180 on 2960's off with a tail wind. Hard enough with short floats.

My early model did very well with the short floats. Worked out of high current areas, some wind, though I did avoid when I could.

I was not able to get the gross weight increase, so the smaller float was fine. I have my doubts that a newer model without a serious stol kit would come out shorter than that plane stripped down. Heavy, maybe. Light, hmmmmmmm.
 
Pete,
Come on up anyway , lots of beds at the lodge! The 3000's are the story all right.

Ak Tango,
I am with you, an early lightweight C180 on 2870's is about the perfect poormans 185. Actually my last one was a 1963 F model on 2870s
And it was pretty striped down, if the winds were right , was able to go in and out of some 1000 ft ponds with trees all around them............

Northernguy
This M thing is a new one on me? Of course there was the 2870 A models with with wires consealed and the water rudder rubber gromet that was certain to crack the moment you left the airplane tied to the shure nosed in............ slowly sinking during the night while you were sleeping? We NEVER left em nosed end for that reason...... I saw one of the National Park Services then new C185s
Sunk right to the windshield over on Twin Lakes on Whiplines because they left it nosed in for the night...........

For what ever its worth if you have never had the pleasure of flying an early C 180 on the first floats they were certified on the Edo 2425, now that is a scary outfit , one passenger and half tanks, in a 15kt
Wind ?? When broadside to the wind will, show water over the top of the whole downwind float!
There was a older C180 that set on Lake Hood that was on Edo 2880's the bigger brother to the 2425's
I watched him fly it a few times in 20 kt winds and it looked like it worked really good! Only set I ever saw on a C180........
 
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An H model 180 with long range tanks on 2870's is a great performing cross-country float plane, especially light. A couple comments: the water rudders seem smaller on the 2870's. Does anyone know if there is a difference in size between the 2960's? When loaded heavy with 20+ knot winds, the rudders loose effectiveness and turns require planning ahead and multiple inputs. I've also been told (no confirmation) that an advantage to the early 2870's is that you sit higher off the water = more prop clearance.

When I started flying a super cub on WIP floats (small tail, big rudders), I was shocked at how much easier it was to turn in winds, simply step on the rudder in the direction you would like to turn while applying proper taxi aileron input.
 
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There are times when use of pilot technique and skill is a much better option than the brute strength afforded by large water rudders. There comes a wind velocity on any seaplane that should dictate a VERY careful approach to turning or moving downwind.

I owned a 66 H model on 2870s and it would turn around just fine. First question I'd ask is: Are your water rudders rigged properly? If they aren't rigged right, even larger rudders won't make them turn much better.

MTV
 
yes, they are rigged correctly. Early on, I found that the latch on my EDO water retract handle would get in the way of the rudders going completely down, learning to move it out of the way when I put them down helped. Stiffer springs in the tail helped with water deflection too. There are also those darn weeds in MN lakes, taking time to clear the rudders of weeds before a turn can improve a turn vs. trying to turn with your rudders floating 8) (Note: this same technique should be used after take-off to prevent the transfer of said weeds to other lakes.)

After a couple seasons of flying the '68 180H on 2870's it mysteriously started turning better.. go figure.
 
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