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Installing Garmin 430 in Cessna 180

Texas 12 driver

Registered User
College Station, TX and Uvalde, TX
I figured I would ask here since I know somebody has run down this path. How do I get a copy of the STC for the installation of a Garmin 430 in our Cessna? The folks at Garmin told me that I need to go to the FAA website to view it, and that yes they (Garmin) hold the STC, but that's as far as it went.

Any help is appreciated!

Thanks!
 
If you have the 430, you will need a permission letter to install it anyway, (this is from having other mods require permission letters), so are you trying to do this without paying Garmin for the permission? Because if they are going to give you the permission, I would bet with it comes the paperwork.

Also, almost any 430 stc would have the same info I bet. STC would list all models it applies to I suspect.
 
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NO.
The original GNS 430 was only STC'd for a Bonanza. You just signed it off as and exception to the STC, if you installed it in anything else. And the copy of the STC is located in the back of the install manual.
The GNS 430W requires a permission letter and some other paperwork.

Web
 
NO.
The original GNS 430 was only STC'd for a Bonanza. You just signed it off as and exception to the STC, if you installed it in anything else. And the copy of the STC is located in the back of the install manual.
The GNS 430W requires a permission letter and some other paperwork.

Web

And one wonders why non-certified has taken over the world.

Thank you for the correction.
 
Thanks for the replies. Unit in question is a 430W. When I called Garmin support they had no clue what I was talking about when I mentioned getting/paying any form of permission to install it in my a/c.

How does one go about getting one of these permission letters?
 
Hi Folks.

I work in an avionics shop and sell a TON of used avionics monthly.

Here's how it works:
*NEW equipment MUST be installed by a Garmin dealer.
*USED equipment can be installed by anyone.

The reason the Garmin rep had no idea what you were talking about (permission payment) is because there is no such thing.

The GNS430 waas or non waas is one of the most widely bought/installed unit in history. I will guarantee a C180 is on the AML list.

*caution on used equipment. Make sure it has a yellow-tag or 8130. Otherwise it may have come from salvage or may have "fallen off a truck". In addition, you'll need a GA-35 (waas antenna) or a GA-56 (non-waas antenna), you'll also need a rack, backplate, installation kit and RG-400 cable.
 
Hi Folks.

I work in an avionics shop and sell a TON of used avionics monthly.

Here's how it works:
*NEW equipment MUST be installed by a Garmin dealer.
*USED equipment can be installed by anyone.

The reason the Garmin rep had no idea what you were talking about (permission payment) is because there is no such thing.

The GNS430 waas or non waas is one of the most widely bought/installed unit in history. I will guarantee a C180 is on the AML list.

*caution on used equipment. Make sure it has a yellow-tag or 8130. Otherwise it may have come from salvage or may have "fallen off a truck". In addition, you'll need a GA-35 (waas antenna) or a GA-56 (non-waas antenna), you'll also need a rack, backplate, installation kit and RG-400 cable.

Heard it came out of a -12 that was spraying oil all over New England:cheers

Thank you for this information. The FAA has been very testy about any STC'd part having some sort of permission from the STC holder over the last decade. Interesting that is not so with Avionics
 
Not anymore! That 12 is purrin' like a kitten and keeping it's pod nice and clean thanks to the new engine and our favorite mechanic Tom Ford.

RE: GNS. Every vendor is different - most require new equipment to be installed by their dealers. I did go into our super secret dealer site (just for you) to confirm that the C180 is on the AML list for the GNS400 series.

Make no mistake - the FAA is still as testy as ever concerning their STC's, you just happen to be referencing a well loved Garmin part that has a huge AML list.
 
OnTop- Thanks for the help. So as for supporting paperwork, are you saying that because it's used equipment, that we can reference Garmin's STC in the paperwork, but do not actually need to acquire an individual copy of the STC for my airplane?
 
The reason you have some 'flexibility' with STC'd avionics is because it is not made for a specific airframe. That 430 doesn't care if it's in a balloon, a -12 pukin' oil, or in a KingAir with a sober flight crew. It works the same in each installation.
Having to use permission letters and work off a secret AML list is a problem with manufacturers. I can't even blame the feds on this one. If you haven't noticed, some companies, the last few years (cough..cough....Garmin!... cough) have been pulling away from contact with customers. The excuse heard most commonly is that they want their dealers to do all the sales/installs. Good theory but the reality is that they have shut down many of the existing dealers, except their good buddies, and will not deal with a customers complaint even if it involves that dealer. In our area (Anchorage and the Mat-Su valley) we have hundreds of aircraft. Garmin let their district rep for our area shut down one of only two dealerships here. There are only two other dealerships in the entire state!
Contrast that with Electronics International's attitude. If you buy one of their gauges, you automatically have the STC to install it. You can even go on their website and down load a copy of the installation manual and STC.
And since the Garmin rep for this area is a proverbial walking tool, I go out of my way to help people with Garmin installations. When possible I make my purchases from outside this district, just to make sure he doesn't get any credit for that unit.

Web
 
OnTop- Thanks for the help. So as for supporting paperwork, are you saying that because it's used equipment, that we can reference Garmin's STC in the paperwork, but do not actually need to acquire an individual copy of the STC for my airplane?


First things first: if your aircraft (C180) is on the GNS4oo series AML (which it is because I looked it up), and you have used equipment (which you do), then you can install the equipment yourself.

For supporting paperwork - all you need is a yellow tag or 8130 form for your avionics logbook. The yellow-tag or 8130 should have come with the unit when you purchased it. The yellow-tag has all the details of the unit, where it came from, PN, SN and literally means "working when removed". The 8130 form is used when the unit is altered in some way (repair, upgrade, or even just a changed battery) and it will be issued by whomever makes the changes (a shop or Vendor). If you did not get a yellow-tag or 8130, take it to an avionics shop, who is a garmin dealer, and have them "run it up on the bench" so they can certify that it is all working as expected. This takes a few minutes but most shops have an hour minimum. You'll need the proper paperwork to be legal.

Heather
 
Heather
A unit without a yellow tag is not 'illegal'. If I install it, I'm taking responsibility for the unit to be functional. So if something is wrong, I can't point a finger at whoever filled out the tag. Might be different if you are a repair station, but, that's why I operate under my A&P.

Web
 
The reason you have some 'flexibility' with STC'd avionics is because it is not made for a specific airframe. That 430 doesn't care if it's in a balloon, a -12 pukin' oil, or in a KingAir with a sober flight crew. It works the same in each installation.
Having to use permission letters and work off a secret AML list is a problem with manufacturers. I can't even blame the feds on this one. If you haven't noticed, some companies, the last few years (cough..cough....Garmin!... cough) have been pulling away from contact with customers. The excuse heard most commonly is that they want their dealers to do all the sales/installs. Good theory but the reality is that they have shut down many of the existing dealers, except their good buddies, and will not deal with a customers complaint even if it involves that dealer. In our area (Anchorage and the Mat-Su valley) we have hundreds of aircraft. Garmin let their district rep for our area shut down one of only two dealerships here. There are only two other dealerships in the entire state!
Contrast that with Electronics International's attitude. If you buy one of their gauges, you automatically have the STC to install it. You can even go on their website and down load a copy of the installation manual and STC.
And since the Garmin rep for this area is a proverbial walking tool, I go out of my way to help people with Garmin installations. When possible I make my purchases from outside this district, just to make sure he doesn't get any credit for that unit.

Web

Some avionics are aircraft specific, one example I can think of is the S-tech 55 autopilots (formerly s-tec, formerly cobham, now Genesys) requires the reg number, aircraft model, sn, and HSI system so it can be configured correctly - which costs a pretty penny. Luckily not many avionics are like this.

Keep in mind STC's are EXPENSIVE and take a million years to complete so they will include as many aircraft as they can within their budgets. My experience is that companies are relying on their dealer shops to provide installations for new equipment because they are trying to insure quality. Here on the east coast we have a Garmin rep that is super easy to work with. And, all in all from promo/marketing, to sales, to support, to bookkeeping Garmin is well organized and easy. Which you can NOT say about other companies. It all comes down to the individuals, and I can tell you getting a new dealership is not easy (we've been working on this one for years, despite doing a TON of installs/repair/troubleshooting) so finding the magical combination to attaining a dealership does not always make any sense.

Also, I was kidding about the super secret AML list, most reps will work with their customers. Also, if your aircraft type is not on the AML list, you can simply get a field approval.
 
Heather
A unit without a yellow tag is not 'illegal'. If I install it, I'm taking responsibility for the unit to be functional. So if something is wrong, I can't point a finger at whoever filled out the tag. Might be different if you are a repair station, but, that's why I operate under my A&P.

Web

Yeah, you're right. Repair stations require traceablility. And avionics's shops typically are not going to spend the shop's time/customer's money on a unit that they don't have confirmation of traceability or function.
 
I'm not joking about the AML's being secret. Why would any company keep their AML away from public access? Wouldn't it make sense to have that list out there so that customers can check it out?
As far as the STC question goes, auto pilots, by nature, are going to be fairly airframe specific. Nothing else is. Coms, navs, GPS's, intercoms, etc., work the same in any installation. As I pointed out earlier, the original 430 was only STC'd for a Bonanza. Sign off the installation as per STC instructions with variation being model of aircraft. 100% legal.
As grumpy as I am, I'm glad your experience with Garmin has been good. But I've been dealing with them since the mid 90's and have observed a continuing decrease in customer care. Stay in this game long enough and you'll see companies like them rise and fall. Some rise again.
And you say that your shop is doing Garmin installs/repairs despite no dealership? Up here, Garmin has threatened legal action against some for doing that.

Web
 
No - the shop I work at has a Garmin dealership. I was speaking of another dealership we're pursuing.
 
...As far as the STC question goes, auto pilots, by nature, are going to be fairly airframe specific. Nothing else is. Coms, navs, GPS's, intercoms, etc., work the same in any installation. As I pointed out earlier, the original 430 was only STC'd for a Bonanza. Sign off the installation as per STC instructions with variation being model of aircraft. 100% legal.
Web
Hopefully Texas 12's question is answered.

This thread has brought up a question which try as I might, I can not answer. Why, when for years and years an A&P has been able to install a nav-com radio with just a log book entry or in some cases a 337, is there an STC required to install something as simple as a Garmin 430? It is only a self contained box in a tray connected to some antennas, power and communication wires. There is absolutely nothing in the installation which falls under the definition of a "major Alteration". There is nothing in the 430 which effects any other system in the plane nor does it effect any flight characteristics. I see no difference between the 430 (or any GPS unit) and, for example, a King KX-170 except that one has the added receiving capability of a satellite navigation system. Actually the KX-170 has more wiring involved.
 
I have a GNS 430W in my 180 (formerly had a GNS 420) and it has not caused any problem with the flight characteristics.... :)

However, it would sure be nice if it did not have to be mounted by the passengers knees!

sj
 
I have a GNS 430W in my 180 (formerly had a GNS 420) and it has not caused any problem with the flight characteristics.... :)

However, it would sure be nice if it did not have to be mounted by the passengers knees!

sj

Sit in the Back SJ, then she won't be playing with your knees
 
Skywagon, I will disagree about the degree of difficulty between wiring a 430 vs a KX170, lol.
But you are spot on with the question of log book, 337, or STC. Years ago we argued with the FSDO up here about doing avionics installs as log book entries. I have a copy of the letter they gave out stating that installing equipment such as radios and intercoms do not constitute a major installation. So, ever since that, I've been installing most equipment as log entry only. Then some equipment started coming from the manufacturers with STCs. When I've asked about this, the most common answer I get is that as the equipment gets more sophisticated the path of least resistance to the feds acceptance, is to get an STC. Personally, I feel that it amounts to an unnecessary STC, but from a business stand point I guess I can understand. Less dollars spent fighting the feds equals more profit.
And then, as discussed above, some companies hold control over their products by keeping the STC/paperwork as dealer only items. Contact a Garmin dealer and they will tell you if your aircraft is on their AML. Contact a Bendix/King dealer and they ask you what you want to buy. I love most of the Garmin equipment I've installed, but getting that equipment for my customers and playing their dealer only game has become a problem. So if you need an item from one of these companies, there are two ways to do it. First, find a dealer that will work with you or your installer. Just make sure that all warranty issues are routed back through that dealer. Second, buy factory repaired units. The Garmin 430 and 530 items that are factory repaired come with a Garmin warranty and have been running about half the price of new. The best part of this is that there are no limits to who can purchase and install them.
Just from observation, the units that have IFR level navigation or auto pilot functions seem to, now, come with STCs. Most radios do not, and intercoms never do. And most audio control panels, originally, never even had a TSO on them.
But, back to your original point; no, installation of avionics equipment, in of itself, does NOT meet the requirements of a major alteration, as listed in Part 43. Even auto pilots.
As Arsenio Hall used to say "things that make you say hmmm"?

Web
 
I'll go ya one better than the 337 or logbook entry only....back about 7 years ago, I wanted to replace the two junky radios in the C150TD I'd recently bought with one good one. A friend of mine had had good luck with Icom A200's in several of his airplanes and they were reasonably priced, so that's what I decided on. Talked to an A&P/IA friend of mine beforehand about doing the paperwork for me, he in turn talked to his PMI and was told that a radio install required a 337. Furthermore, if the radio was TSO'd he could sign it off as an IA, but if it wasn't TSO'd it'd need a field approval with the inspector's sign-off. Icom sold both TSO'd & non-TSO'd versions of the A200, so I decided to spend the extra hundred bucks for the TSO'd version just to make it easier.

I'm not saying this PMI was right or wrong, just pointing out that different people interpret the regs differently. I would point out that this particular PMI worked as a GA mechanic & as a DoM for a small 135 airline for many years, and since becoming an inspector has been pretty darn reasonable to work with. He's even signed off some (actually required!) field approvals with a minimum of hassle.
 
Always throw the FARs on the table and have them show you where it's written. And remember, ACs are not law and neither are advisories for inspectors. The FARs are actually written federal law.

Web
 
It's best to pick your fights, and only take one on when it's important. It was sure easier to just do a 337 than to start an argument about it with the inspector. I did my annuals with this particular guy for several years, before he hired on with the FAA-- he's a straight shooter and I'd rather have him in my corner when something important comes up than to bicker with him about something minor (pun intended) like doing a 337.
 
And that's why we have inspectors telling us to do paperwork that is not required by the regs. Because we let them.

Why is it a bad thing to have a fed show us, in the regulations, where an action is required or barred? As owners and maintenance techs, we are required to follow the FARs. By asking an inspector to show us where something is required keeps them, and US, honest and in compliance. Letting them force us into actions beyond the scope of the regs costs us money in the short term (maintenance costs) and in the long run (admin costs).

If you don't like confrontation, then ask nicely.

Web
 
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