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ptackabury
12-09-2014, 09:44 AM
Folks: This is paul, who added a cul-D-sac to Bill's Javron thread to inquire regards thoughts on doing a Reed clip on a Super Cub, in my case maybe a Carbon Cub. The response was helpful and can be found there since I do not know how to cut and paste on this site. Essentially I owned and sold a wonderful Swick-T and have been pursuing the idea of clipping a CC for some time. However, is seems the CC factory is liability shy and their fuse does not mate to standard SC wings, so either I buy their wing kit, throw away the flaps and CNC the spars to eliminate the inner bay, or do something similar to a Javron with Jay's help, or buy a Decathelon. By the way my Swick-T was 0-320 powered, weighed about 950, was a joy to fly and did not glide like a brick when power was reduced. It also didn't bounce like a cork on warm summer daze. Of course it wasn't much good for hauling a quartered moose. I sold it because it had only one seat. So here is the new thread; any ideas, suggestions, opinions, potato salad recipes??
paul

Cub junkie
12-09-2014, 10:05 AM
Lot of Decathlon's out there that need a new proud owner.

txpacer
12-09-2014, 12:53 PM
I think Dakota Cub slotted Pacer wings on a SC fuselage would be a kick and a half.

skywagon8a
12-09-2014, 01:40 PM
I think Dakota Cub slotted Pacer wings on a SC fuselage would be a kick and a half.

Now there is an idea. Talk to Jay about a fuselage. The only difference between a clip and standard wing installation as I understand it would be the angle of the fuselage fittings for the struts. So, if you have the fuselage fitting made to the long wing angles and make a bolt on fitting for the short wing struts, you will have the easy option of changing to long wings if you should so desire.

MainlandCub
12-10-2014, 12:30 AM
My project Cub is a Clipped Wing Super Cub. It is not intended to be a CWC in the spirit of Clipped Wing J3, but more of a Super Cub.

The reasons for choosing a Clipped Wing are these:
1. It is intended to be an LSA (microlight in New Zealand), 1320 lbs max weight, and I don't want a kite which is what it would be like with a full sized wing.
2. I have some PA-22 spars, ailerons and flaps that I wanted to use.
3. I also wanted to reduce my hangarage burden from that of a full wing.
4. I wanted a faster roll rate and lighter ailerons than on a stock Cub.

I'm sorta at the point where I've done all the thinking for the project considering and rejecting a lot of ideas along the way and now just need to get on with the building.

The wing planform is inspired by the Dakota Cub Super 20, which Steve Pierce has posted a lot about on this forum. So, basically PA-22 wing length, but with the tip squared off. I want to retain the stock Cub aileron cable runs, straight out to the aileron from the strut area, so intend to retain a fairly big aileron and PA-22 sized flap. The reason for retaining the PA-22 sized flap was partly because I had one, but in cutting the fabric off it I can see it all bulged between the hinges and the spar, so it will need to rebuilt, so I'm wondering about going for PA-18 sized flaps. From memory the planned aileron is 91 inches long and the centroid is further out than on a traditional CWC, so the roll rate should be equal or better.

Power is intended to be a C90, but the O-320 is tempting, but I think it is just too much extra weight.


Andrew.

skywagon8a
12-10-2014, 05:10 AM
If I were building/rebuilding a home built version of any high wing Piper which used flaps and I needed the flaps, I would without question buy and install a set of these http://www.performancestol.com/

Steve Pierce
12-10-2014, 06:41 AM
I learned to fly in a Clipper (Cub aileron, no flaps) and really like the way that airplane flies. Having owned and flown several Pacers I was always disappointed in the aileron authority especially in crosswinds. The Dakota Cub slotted winged Pacer solved all of that by squaring the wing and taking the aileron outboard and lengthening the flap. Nice combination. The only thing i would question is your mission and the need for flaps. I Clipper or Clipped wing Cub sure does slip nice.

ptackabury
12-10-2014, 09:16 AM
Junkie: My RPN HP calc sez the Decathlon is 42% heavier than a Carbon cub--and has 20 fewer horses. Plus it looks like a bug eyed guppy. But it is available and has a good rep in the world of us old pilots.
Mainland: I like your mission statement but question the need for flaps, especially if your single flap is not airworthly. If we are not going to land on mountain tops or row boats, then stall speeds below about 40mph are good only for marketing. And flaps do add weight and complexity, esp if they are multi surfaced.
Pierce: Thanks; and where did you discuss the Dakota wing on a previous thread? I leaned towards the CC because it is light and well sorted and maybe a quick build. I have built two EABs in the past and have a good idea what is involved and so am maybe too cautious about tying my life to a product with no manual and few flying examples. Now a Hyperbipe just popped up on Barnstormers...
paul

d.grimm
12-10-2014, 09:16 AM
My Vagabond with nearly full span ailerons and ball bearing pulleys
on the aileron cables was probably the nicest flying shortwing I've ever flown.
Dave

cubdriver2
12-10-2014, 09:56 AM
My Vagabond with nearly full span ailerons and ball bearing pulleys
on the aileron cables was probably the nicest flying shortwing I've ever flown.
Dave

Ditto, my Lyc 0145 Pa 15 was a hoot

Glenn

Cub junkie
12-10-2014, 09:58 AM
Well, you brought up Decathlon first. There are some great deals out there on Decathlons. Might be 42% heavier with 20 less ponies but continue to work that calculator on the cost and then get back with me. Do you want to fly or build ? Yes, there are endless possibilities and combo's but without long ailerons a short wing cub is just transportation. Kenny Johnson built a cub with tri pacer wings, mainly because the wings fell in his lap. He has since built two more cubs(all from scratch) and they have long ailerons and long wings. I know of another SC clone with colt wings(i.e. short ailerons) and the owner told me he will rebuild with at least standard cub ailerons when he rebuilds. I like Swick T's, I have a friend who built a nice one. He weighs about 125 so it goes good. His has two seats but you have to really like the person your sitting next to.

ptackabury
12-10-2014, 06:54 PM
Junkie: You are right, I brought up a Decathlon and then took a shot (weak, but none the less) at you for repeating it. Shame on me! Actually I mentioned it and then did my Wikipedia thing and was shocked at the 1340 EW listed for a 8KCAB. Concrete wings I guess; certainly hell for stout. A Citabria is a couple hundred pounds lighter, but when one is trying to match Piper or a Carbon Cub, well Am Champ has a long way to go. A Vagabond is interesting and Vaughn Lovley's award winner was a standout at OSH. Maybe a Wag A bond as EXP is desirable. But it would not be proper to paint a Wag Aero replica yellow, so the search continues. Anyone know of a clipped cub for sale, or a 2 place Swick-T?
paul

skywagon8a
12-11-2014, 05:45 AM
I'm assuming that a Swick-T is a clipped wing Taylorcraft? Why don't you get all of the appropriate Cub parts from Jay, then build your own Taylorcraft airfoil shaped ribs. Voila, a Paul-T Cub! Somewhere here I believe that there is a picture posted of a Cub with T-craft wings.

MainlandCub
12-11-2014, 09:00 AM
I'm assuming that a Swick-T is a clipped wing Taylorcraft? Why don't you get all of the appropriate Cub parts from Jay, then build your own Taylorcraft airfoil shaped ribs. Voila, a Paul-T Cub! Somewhere here I believe that there is a picture posted of a Cub with T-craft wings.

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?46645-Mr-Dannenberg-s-Monocub-intake-question

ptackabury
12-11-2014, 01:32 PM
Sky: Jim Swick was an airline capt, designer and hall of fame home builder who built one of the more popular versions of the clipped wing Taylorcraft--thus the Swick-T. He sold plans until his death and there are many out there today. A variant of the clipped wing J-3 had clipped Taylorcraft wings on a cub fuse because the T'craft wings are symmetrical and therefore give better inverted performance. So when Cub Crafters decided against pursuing my project, I considered buying Taylorcraft wings, sawing off the inner bay and putting them on a Carbon Cub fuse, resulting in your suggested Paul-T-CC. That maybe the right approach as I wade thru the pitfalls of grafting part A into slot G.
Main: I like it!! I had not seen that pix of a Monocub before and if I kept the rounded wingtip a clipped CC could look like that (might need to modify the Cub gear to a spring version). Thanks!
paul

cubdriver2
12-11-2014, 02:19 PM
Isn't a carbon cub already clipped from a SC18 wingspan ?

Glenn

skywagon8a
12-11-2014, 02:19 PM
Thanks paul, I assume that you are into aerobatics with the ability of occasionally carrying a passenger. I see an opportunity here to set the angle of incidence to something which would be advantageous to flying both sides up dependent upon the airfoil. This is outside of my preview. I do suggest that you keep the fuselage fitting to the long wing angles as I suggested in #4 above. This will give you future possibilities without any more than changing wings and struts.

ptackabury
12-12-2014, 11:52 AM
2: Carbon Cub-34'3"; SC-35'3" so yes the CC is clipped a bit, but I am talking about an 85" clip (same as the Reed STC for the J-3) so 7 feet vis 1 foot.
Sky: Not really into acro--just into responsive aircraft with higher wing and power loadings. 20 years as a USAF Fighter Pilot will do that to you, and now that I am an old, fat ex fighter pilot, easy entry and exit are very necessary features. So good bye Pitts, hello wide body, large entry door Cubs with short wings and hopped up Lycs.
This thread is likely loosing steam as I realize I may be seeking the Great Pumpkin here, but I have enjoyed everyone's thoughts and want to thank you all for participating.
paul

cubdriver2
12-12-2014, 11:56 AM
2: Carbon Cub-34'3"; SC-35'3" so yes the CC is clipped a bit, but I am talking about an 85" clip (same as the Reed STC for the J-3) so 7 feet vis 1 foot.
Sky: Not really into acro--just into responsive aircraft with higher wing and power loadings. 20 years as a USAF Fighter Pilot will do that to you, and now that I am an old, fat ex fighter pilot, easy entry and exit are very necessary features. So good bye Pitts, hello wide body, large entry door Cubs with short wings and hopped up Lycs.
This thread is likely loosing steam as I realize I may be seeking the Great Pumpkin here, but I have enjoyed everyone's thoughts and want to thank you all for participating.
paul

But a CWC weighs under 700lbs?

Glenn

ptackabury
12-12-2014, 12:19 PM
Glenn: My Swick-T, a clipped Taylorcraft, with a O-320 Lyc weighed about 950--about the same as could be expected from a Clipped CC. In order for a CWC to work it must be light but also must have increased power--see Budd Davidsons pilot reports. With radio, tx, electrical, starter (remember old, fat) and the rest to survive in SoCal, it would be hard to get airborne less than 900 # I think.

skywagon8a
12-12-2014, 01:02 PM
Without knowing just how much inverted flight that you anticipate, it appears that you should consider a Lycoming IO-360 with a minimum rating of 180 hp. They are available in souped up versions to over 200hp. In my opinion the fuel injection would be desirable for this application. Your project sounds like fun.

Cub junkie
12-12-2014, 01:19 PM
Lycoming powered fat clip wing cubs don't perform as well as clip wings that weigh 750 pounds with C-90's.

bob turner
12-12-2014, 02:33 PM
I have not flown the clipped Cub, but have flown the single place clipped Taylorcraft.

More to the point, I own a Super Decathlon and two Cubs. Clipping a $200 grand new aircraft might result in a marginally better airplane than a $40 grand Decathlon, but if it was me, I would retain the STOL features of the CC and buy a good Decathlon for aerobatics.

I really like NIPA's flap suggestion - I would have to fly one first, but double-slotted sounds like genuine fun!

I never flew a fighter, but have flown some serious high performance aero machines. A good Extra does a roll with the flick of a finger; the Decathlon takes way more skill, finesse, and rudder work. A high roll rate is fun, but a slow roll takes more skill. The Dec can do a credible 8-point roll, and it can be a very comfortable X-C aircraft. Lots easier to get in and out, if that is a problem, than is a Cub.

Opinion.

bob turner
12-12-2014, 07:02 PM
Just re-thinking this one a bit. The Decathlon is a reasonably good inverted flight airplane. When I was young and stupid I did an outside loop in one. All it is is a Champ with spring steel gear and wings that look a lot like a clipped Taylorcraft wing, only with stronger spars. That sounds like where you are going, but at much greater expense and a skinnier fuselage.

Sure, they are heavy - mine is 1305# empty, and is legally restricted to me and my spouse, who has a teenage body. It will, however, lift whatever you can cram into it, just like a Super Cub. And a 180 hp Super Cub will tip the scales very close to 1300# anyway, even without a heavy C/S prop.

They are not as attractive as a Cub, but their beauty grows on you. They are lots roomier than a Cub, and not nearly as much fun in the pattern. For my flying, a Cub and a Decathlon are simply the absolute best. I am very happy that I did not select the slightly less versatile C-180 as my second airplane.

ptackabury
12-13-2014, 09:50 AM
Thanks Bob: I think your buy a Dec, bank 100 large and fly tomorrow is a great suggestion. Two downsides: 1) Decathlon doesn't have a great forum like this, and 2) every used Dec I have ever seen has a warped, sagging, shoddy, ugly glare shield and an inst panel out of a cereal box. But I guess the 100 large saved can be put to use solving those problems...
thanks again, paul

skywagon8a
12-13-2014, 09:56 AM
Paul, Yes this is a Super Cub forum, but we do let Bob participate so don't let that stop you. We will continue to pull your chain, since that is our privilege. You can take the 100 large that you save and buy a beater Cub. :lol:

bob turner
12-13-2014, 11:30 AM
And the instrument panel is easily replaced. Tat is the first thing I did, and the second was to paint all that fake wood graina flat black. The glare shield is aluminum - you get some vinyl and some Barg's glue, and on a nice warm day you stretch and glue the vinyl on. Some mechanics insist on "burn certs" for any upholstery.

ptackabury
12-14-2014, 11:29 AM
Sky: Looks like Bob has about 600 more posts than you, and maybe 4500 more than me so we better be nice to him!
So I talked to a Dec guy and he sez 180, not 150 and sure all can be fixed even thought it is a certified plane. What about that equally ugly upholstery on the left side?? What was Bell/Am Champ thinking??

bob turner
12-14-2014, 12:59 PM
I fly both 150 and 180. If I had to do it from scratch, I think I would go for a 160. My aero doesn't need vertical capability, but I could go for 7 1/2 gph. Yes, the Bellanca interior sucks. No, it is not difficult to replace. Wish I had a ready photo of the instrument panel - it is a "six pack" with ILS and GPS, flat black sheet metal. I still have the OEM auto gauges, but someday will replace them with good 2 1/4" aircraft gauges and an electric fuel pressure gauge.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv31/bobturner_trains/Airplanes/seatbelts006_zpse0917736.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/bobturner_trains/media/Airplanes/seatbelts006_zpse0917736.jpg.html)

skywagon8a
12-14-2014, 01:47 PM
The 180 will only burn 7 1/2 gph if you pull the power back. But the 160 will never pull 180 no matter how far you push the throttle. You can't expect someone who is used to turning on an afterburner go for a small engine. :lol:

bob turner
12-14-2014, 09:08 PM
That's up to him. The used price is the same. Cheap for the amount of airplane you get.

ptackabury
12-28-2014, 11:11 AM
Anxious viewers: So you all are probably wondering what I have decided to do: buy a Dec, build a CC, keep looking for a Swick-T, punt. So I decided to take a left turn and have bought a '36 Monocoupe 90A with a 165 Warner! Side by side clipped cub with a round engine, sorta. It will be a while until the deal is complete and the plane is rescued from the frosty mid west, but I will offer a flight impression as soon as one is available.
paul, never a dull moment...

skywagon8a
12-28-2014, 11:24 AM
Cool ! Nice engine. What prop does it have? Aeromatic? That type was a popular airshow performer in it's day.

ptackabury
12-28-2014, 11:31 AM
Yep. Aeromatic. Another something new to fool with.

Cub junkie
12-28-2014, 11:36 AM
Is it Cam Blazer's airplane?

ptackabury
12-28-2014, 12:48 PM
Is it Cam Blazer's airplane?
Yep again. Did I do a good thing??

Cub junkie
12-28-2014, 01:33 PM
yes