Clayton Harper
MEMBER
Seabrook, TX
How much of an old PA-18A fuselage can one start with and still licenses it "experimental". If I live long enough, would like to build a Exp. Super Cub.
PA-18A Experimental
- Thread starter Clayton Harper
- Start date
Cub junkie
Registered User
My Moms basement
You will get many answers(opinions) to your question. My opinion is it all depends on the DAR. We all know how the regs. read.
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
I agree....it depends.
If I didn't know a DAR, I would go to the local EAA chapter for answers.
If I didn't know a DAR, I would go to the local EAA chapter for answers.
Cub Builder
MEMBER
North Central AR
It's actually pretty straight forward. The FAA made a checklist so you can see whether your plane is going to meet the 51% rule or not. I keep a copy on our EAA Chapter web site, you can download at http://eaa691.org/files/Form 8000-38.PDF. It is also known as AC 20-27G Appendix 8. If you Google it, you'll find where someone put it into a spreadsheet form so you can simply fill in the blanks. → → → → http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/f...pendix-8-homebuilt-fabrication-check-list.xls
-CubBuilder
-CubBuilder
I am currently resurrecting an old j-3 fuselage that was clean but bent. I am installing all of the pa-18 mods, with a few of my own!!!8) The local FSDO said fine and didn't seem to have any issue with it. I am building landing gear, wings, tailfeathers ect from scratch so I will have no problem being well over 51% If you use an existing fuselage, you will need to build most of the rest of the parts to comply, or have a very understanding DAR/FSDO to get an airworthiness cert from what I hear these days.
Clayton Harper
MEMBER
Seabrook, TX
I think I found an understanding DAR. He will give credit for widening the fuselage 4". Like said, I'll need to build a lot of the other stuff. I think it will be worth it, because I can build a good engine.
Working with the FAA formula chart.
How would you award points for let’s say the Windshield:
I buy a pre formed windshield but it is not trimmed to fit. It takes 5+ hours to fit. I do the work myself. Do you award the point for the pre formed windshield to MFG Kit/Part/Component column or do I split it 70/30, 50/50 30/70?
If I paid someone to fit it than what part would go to the Commercial Assistance column.
How about windows: I buy flat stock and lay-out and trim my side window. Does the whole the point go to the AM-Builder?
As a builder I didn’t fabricate the spars but cleaned, inspected, alodine etc. I am thinking:
.9 to MFG and .1 to Builder?
Assemble wing spars to wing: 1 to builder.
Fab ribs: 1 to mfg 0 to builder
Assemble wing ribs to spar: .1~.5 for pre drilling the holes and .5~.9 for attaching to spar? Or 1pt to builder?
How would you award points for let’s say the Windshield:
I buy a pre formed windshield but it is not trimmed to fit. It takes 5+ hours to fit. I do the work myself. Do you award the point for the pre formed windshield to MFG Kit/Part/Component column or do I split it 70/30, 50/50 30/70?
If I paid someone to fit it than what part would go to the Commercial Assistance column.
How about windows: I buy flat stock and lay-out and trim my side window. Does the whole the point go to the AM-Builder?
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Working with old certified wings: They were once assembled now they are completely apart. Working the chart:
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As a builder I didn’t fabricate the spars but cleaned, inspected, alodine etc. I am thinking:
.9 to MFG and .1 to Builder?
Assemble wing spars to wing: 1 to builder.
Fab ribs: 1 to mfg 0 to builder
Assemble wing ribs to spar: .1~.5 for pre drilling the holes and .5~.9 for attaching to spar? Or 1pt to builder?
Clayton Harper
MEMBER
Seabrook, TX
I'm trying to uses an Exp. O-360. I saw the Bearhawk Patrol in the EAA mag. The quick build might not be bad. Thoughts?
Last edited:
What DW said about mission for the plane. Might be worthwhile to take a look at Just Aircraft's SuperSTOL. The Bearhawk Patrol is a good solid aircraft with an impressive cruise speed (compared to a SC), but it doesn't match a Super Cub on the low end. Define your mission, preferences and the type of flying you'll be actually be doing and take it from there...
Disclaimer: Mine's not done yet and not been approved. Think of what follows as fiction so far as investing in it. But it may be a starting point for your own research.
I did a lot of searching on this and basically appendix 8 rules on this. It defines "51%", not how much work you actually do, so Cubbuilder above nailed it I think on that point but what you are asking is "Can I use certified salvage parts"? New parts (never installed on an aircraft) whether PMA'd, certified or welded up by your brother in law, are legal to use and only cost you the one of the "items" in the "sections" (there are 6 sections in appendix 8 with varying numbers of items in each section ). They are not considered being built by you so you don't get the points but that is all. Example: You didn't fabricate the brakes but you did install them so you can check the "install brakes" box and get that point.
Salvage parts: A salvage part is an old used or installed part from a certified aircraft. I can't remember the quote exactly but basically something like this "substantial use of salvage parts" is not legal and is an attempt to circumvent the certified aircraft category and will disqualify the build. "I believe" my research turned up that using salvage parts in a section of appendix 8 disqualified Tthe whole section. For instance and to the original posters question: Appendix 8 has a "fuselage" section. I think it has 20 or so points in it. Building the fuselage is 1? point. Anyway if you use a salvage fuselage you lose 20 points no matter how much work you do to the fuselage or in the rest of the "fuselage" section.
The good news is there are around 150? points applicable to the "super cub clone" so you can easily afford to lose 20 points if you don't want to weld up a fuse or buy a new one (in my example you would lose 1 point for a new, never flown, certified fuse but all 20 points for a used one.) You are tasked with doing more work in the other sections to make sure you exceed 77 owner built points (I'm guessing on the total points but 77 would be 51% of 150 points for example).
The take away is that the old idea of "51%" is no longer applicable. It is now 51% of appendix 8 item points. This was necessary to enable the modern "kit" plane where the wings, tail, fuselage, etc. is already fabricated and the builder bolts the kit together and rigs and covers it. Salvage parts disqualify the whole section no matter how much you modify, repair, extend, shrink, rebuild etc. And finally the DAR gets to make the final call on that fuzzy interpretation.
I did a lot of searching on this and basically appendix 8 rules on this. It defines "51%", not how much work you actually do, so Cubbuilder above nailed it I think on that point but what you are asking is "Can I use certified salvage parts"? New parts (never installed on an aircraft) whether PMA'd, certified or welded up by your brother in law, are legal to use and only cost you the one of the "items" in the "sections" (there are 6 sections in appendix 8 with varying numbers of items in each section ). They are not considered being built by you so you don't get the points but that is all. Example: You didn't fabricate the brakes but you did install them so you can check the "install brakes" box and get that point.
Salvage parts: A salvage part is an old used or installed part from a certified aircraft. I can't remember the quote exactly but basically something like this "substantial use of salvage parts" is not legal and is an attempt to circumvent the certified aircraft category and will disqualify the build. "I believe" my research turned up that using salvage parts in a section of appendix 8 disqualified Tthe whole section. For instance and to the original posters question: Appendix 8 has a "fuselage" section. I think it has 20 or so points in it. Building the fuselage is 1? point. Anyway if you use a salvage fuselage you lose 20 points no matter how much work you do to the fuselage or in the rest of the "fuselage" section.
The good news is there are around 150? points applicable to the "super cub clone" so you can easily afford to lose 20 points if you don't want to weld up a fuse or buy a new one (in my example you would lose 1 point for a new, never flown, certified fuse but all 20 points for a used one.) You are tasked with doing more work in the other sections to make sure you exceed 77 owner built points (I'm guessing on the total points but 77 would be 51% of 150 points for example).
The take away is that the old idea of "51%" is no longer applicable. It is now 51% of appendix 8 item points. This was necessary to enable the modern "kit" plane where the wings, tail, fuselage, etc. is already fabricated and the builder bolts the kit together and rigs and covers it. Salvage parts disqualify the whole section no matter how much you modify, repair, extend, shrink, rebuild etc. And finally the DAR gets to make the final call on that fuzzy interpretation.
snowyriver
Registered User
Alaska
For anyone interested, there's a Bearhawk Patrol quick build kit on craigslist in Anchorage for $36,000 OBO
I had purchured a IO360 180Hp in china but I havnt a buleprints of Backcountycub Boss.But I have a PA18(LA-21) buledrawing,I am not sure that can use.
Clayton Harper
MEMBER
Seabrook, TX
DW thank you.Would you like give me some links about Bushmaster/Producer aircraft? I want built a STOL aircraft that can use off-airport. For outdoors,travel with my family etc.
CLayton Harper,My engine running well but I run it only in stand,lol.
Clayton Harper
MEMBER
Seabrook, TX
sageelite,
You can build experimental airplanes in China?
You can build experimental airplanes in China?
Of course I can.You can build anything in China except weapon.
