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Aileron Kit/Parts

J

Jim Miller

Registered User
Normandy TN
I am considering building some ailerons to insure I am over the 51% hump in my cub
project. Any recommendations on best place to buy some parts to use in cionstruction?
Does Javron make or contract out to someone else. I will be making Colt size ailerons
and interested in parts to build like spar, D section, ribs, etc.

Thanks
Jim Miller
 
Jim,

Check out Bugs66's site for some pictures of the D&E system for ailerons. He likes it.

All the little bits bought from Univair or Dakota Cub are expensive compared to say, the equivalent Vans parts.

I have seen some pictures on this site of some nice form blocks used to make main aileron ribs.

If you need to make PA-22 aileron horns PM me and I'll send some pictures of mine - there is no drawing for these on the SWP discs if my memory serves me correction.

Andrew.
 
Jim, look at the exact list that FAA uses to determine 51%. Likely, you're at 51% already and can use ailerons you have, or order some. The 51% has to do with number of operations. Have you made another flight control? (tail?). Have you riveted? Have you/will you cover with fabric? Worked with ribs n spars? Again, check the checklist before you go through the trouble/expense.

D and E uses therir own hinge system on flight controls. Call them, but I don't think they'll bolt up to pipers or make any that do. Finally, you may be able to order raw parts from D&E and combine with hinges from Univair to make ailerons that hook up to colt wings.

Might also try the short wing site since your building a short wing cub.
 
Jim, Have you thought about lonf ailerons (Cub and Clipper size)? They would really liven up the control harmony.
 
Steve Pierce said:
Jim, Have you thought about lonf ailerons (Cub and Clipper size)? They would really liven up the control harmony.
Click to expand...

Steve
If I end up building new ones I will look at the Cub size.

Cal
I have a basic question about the exp checklist. Am I correct to assume that the first step is to go thru the FAA exp builder checklist and mark
those items that are N/A. Two examples in my case would be flaps and rudder trim, and a few others. This will reduce the total possible number
and not penalize you for something that doesn't apply to your project. Likewise there will be a few items you did that aren't credited on the
checklist and you can add those.

Jim
 
Parts

Jim when looking for parts have a look at Carlson Aircraft (http://www.carlsonaircraft.com) they are pretty mom & pop but build better than most.. if you are looking for light cub parts (until someone does carbon) I think they are the best in town. Mary is the engineer and Frank usually handles orders.. it really helps if you know what you want.. otherwise you get all the disclaimers. they helped us on the last experimental and we'll go back. they will even build from custom rib templates.

A single flap was about 3# when we built them.

As you probably already know.. install VGs, they help with both stall and low speed control.

good luck-

frank little_cub@alarmspro.com
 
Little_cub,

I talked to Frank last week and I'm getting the spars from him and sample ribs. Did you folks buy the T strip and bend and build or did you just get their already together ribs? I'm going to stop by their shop on the 7th of Jan on my way out to Idaho and pick up parts. It's only 60 miles or so out of the way and I think I can probably learn some things while there., Frank seems like nice guy and ready to help. Do you know what size fuel tank they are set up to use?
 
Why not just build from raw material rather than being a part assembler. I built my plane and built every part from scratch. I never used a single pre- made part except for instruments. I made Carb air box, cabin heat and Carb heat systems, every wing and aileron flap rib. Enjoyed every minute..
.
 
Don,

I'd love to do that too but I'm going to try to get it done in 2 years so I'm going to cheat some on parts. I may make the ribs but the time and materials on the spars seem like it is better time wise to go with the Carlson spars. I built an RV-4 what was pretty much assembly but it took 6 years while I was working full time and I'm hoping now that I'm retired I can get the cub done in 2 years.

How did you make your ribs?
 
I made my ribs from.025 2024T3. Used hardwood form blocks and formed them by hand. Same with aileron ribs and nose ribs... Might have used Carlson rib cap and built up ribs if I did it agian. Made aileron and flap spars from .032 6061T6... .o16 leading edge on flaps and ailerons.. Formed and welded hangers and hinges from 4130.. I did use Carlson spar blanks..
 
The T cap seems to be the best way to make lite ribs...short of using a wooden wing. I went thru all the EAA videos and formed ribs do not appear to be difficult to make but they must be heavier than the Carlson style. I also talked to D&E and their products look good too, but since Carlson is on my way West I'm using their parts.
 
Lowrider said:
Don,

I'd love to do that too but I'm going to try to get it done in 2 years so I'm going to cheat some on parts. I may make the ribs but the time and materials on the spars seem like it is better time wise to go with the Carlson spars.
Click to expand...

Lowrider - We purchased complete ribs as well.. it would be pretty easy like Don said to build a wood form and bend.

Although Carlson ribs weigh a couple ounces more than the original we liked the flat surface and used rivets to attach the fabric which helped speed assembly as well. It's amazing how much weight can be saved simply punching holes in all the rib support braces.
We used PlasChem's Carbon LE it's strong enough that we didn't use tip ribs.
Carbon parts will be a real asset as they get support.. no LE hanger rash!
 
Last edited:
Do you guys think the formed ribs are heavier? I think it would be easier to form than do all the "tweeking" on the T strips and riveting little pieces, but it might be worth it if it is significantly lighter.

Riveting would sure be faster than stitching. I like the idea of the carbon LE too so I gotta look into that as well. My son is working small carbon parts but I'm not sure I'm ready to use his leading edges yet.
 
Jim Miller said:
Cal
I have a basic question about the exp checklist. Am I correct to assume that the first step is to go thru the FAA exp builder checklist and mark
those items that are N/A. Two examples in my case would be flaps and rudder trim, and a few others. This will reduce the total possible number
and not penalize you for something that doesn't apply to your project. Likewise there will be a few items you did that aren't credited on the
checklist and you can add those.

Jim
Click to expand...
Jim, You ought to go have a friendly chat with the person who you are going to use as your DAR. The chat will help put your mind at ease.
 
Lowrider said:
Riveting would sure be faster than stitching.
Click to expand...
Are you sure that drilling two holes and installing two rivets that bulge up, leaving bumps all over the wing, will be quicker than making one Staggerwing flat rib stitch? I disagree. You will be surprised at how fast rib stitching can go once you get in the groove.
 
skywagon8a said:
Are you sure that drilling two holes and installing two rivets that bulge up, leaving bumps all over the wing, will be quicker than making one Staggerwing flat rib stitch? I disagree. You will be surprised at how fast rib stitching can go once you get in the groove.
Click to expand...

I have never worked with fabric...always aluminum so I tend to gravitate to methods that work in that material. I can sew buttons on shirts but that is the extent of my stitching...so the knot is smaller than the head of the pop rivet and will show less in the finished product and produce less drag?
 
Lowrider said:
I have never worked with fabric...always aluminum so I tend to gravitate to methods that work in that material. I can sew buttons on shirts but that is the extent of my stitching...so the knot is smaller than the head of the pop rivet and will show less in the finished product and produce less drag?
Click to expand...
The Stagger wing knot is buried under the fabric. You will never see it when finished. Use the flat rib stitch chord and the whole process will be almost invisible.
 
skywagon8a said:
Jim, You ought to go have a friendly chat with the person who you are going to use as your DAR. The chat will help put your mind at ease.
Click to expand...


I plan to have the FAA do my sign-off.The one DAR I have talked with is the guy who thinks a two place experimental amateur built has to be able to carry two 190 lb
people, full fuel, and 1/2 lb of baggage per horsepower. He doesn't understand the difference between a manufactured or Kit built LSA and a Exp
amateur built. We have some knowledgable, reasonable people at our local FSDO office that were a pleasure to work with when getting my Major
Mod RV3 back in the air. I have gone thru the checklist a few times and meet the 51% rule with plenty of margin to spare. The first thing I do is
mark all items that are N/A and then subract the N/A total from the blank checklist total items. If this is the correct way to use the checklist then
I have no problems with the 51%. After adjusting the total items i mark what i have built and easily get 60%.

Jim
 
Last edited:
Now I remember your earlier discussion about that DAR. Sometimes the FSDO is the best bet. Have the discussion with your FSDO guy. Put your mind at ease. I had the same concerns with my not yet approved kit. My local DAR put my mind at ease. In the end it was a piece of cake.
 
skywagon8a said:
The Stagger wing knot is buried under the fabric. You will never see it when finished. Use the flat rib stitch chord and the whole process will be almost invisible.
Click to expand...

Guess I need to learn how to stitch. Do you use the same number of stitch points as you would with a rivet?
 
skywagon8a said:
The Stagger wing knot is buried under the fabric. You will never see it when finished. Use the flat rib stitch chord and the whole process will be almost invisible.
Click to expand...


I agree, the staggering knot works great and much faster than the traditional seine knot . You coverup a rib stitching with a fabric tape same as you would the rivet. Sign up for covering class from Jason Gerard's at Stewarts Systems. He travels alot and is a natural teacher and sharer of information.

You tube has some good demos on staggering knot. I've covered my whole cub, yet, when I don't ribstitch for a month or two, I need a good tuneup to jog the memory. Jason and Pemberton have good vids.

Rib points ?:
43.13 explain minimum stitches required based on a/c speed and prop wash. Look it up, but I think I used 3" on all ribs and 1.5" in the prop wash. I believe that was slightly more than required, but looked good for uniformity and easy layout. I got that idea from Steve pierce.

Two more ideas...
1 walk up to a covered cub and read it. Which tapes are on top of what? Look at stitching. Look at wear areas.
2 get Stewearts DVDs or you tube to learn how to cover/paint. That'll help you.
 
skywagon8a said:
Now I remember your earlier discussion about that DAR. Sometimes the FSDO is the best bet. Have the discussion with your FSDO guy. Put your mind at ease. I had the same concerns with my not yet approved kit. My local DAR put my mind at ease. In the end it was a piece of cake.
Click to expand...


I wouldn't mind at all to find a DAR to work with. Could anyone recommend someone in Northern Alabama. I live 50 miles north of Huntsville.

Jim
 
Jim there are a couple up toward Nashville will ask friend that just finished an rv 7 who he used when he gets back from hollidays
 
Iflylower said:
Jim
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/kits/media/Am_Blt_Chklist_Job_Aid.pdf

Faa checklist directions....

I believe the checklist is FAA form 8000-38

All the n/a'd parts like flaps for you don't help or hurt, just add up your processes vs total and don't count n/a'd ones in the total. If you look at the processes, you will have no problem doing 51%.
Click to expand...


Cal
I found the instructions for the checklist and you are right. After going thru it and taking the max hit for the certified parts I used
i still come up with a solid 62%.

Thanks
Jim
 
You guys are probably correct since I've never done this stitch before but after watching the Superflight and one other staggerwing knot video I think I can drill and put in a pop rivet a fair amount faster. Now, the rivet may show under the tape and it may be worth the extra time to do the stitch just so it is smoother, but I don't think it is faster. I have some time to think on this one and the tried and true methods always seem to win out in the end.
 
Yes, you can drill a hole and install a pop rivet quicker but the holes need to be drilled prior to cover and then you have to find them through the reinforcing tape. Also, is the rib designed for the loads imposed on it by pop rivets or a rib stitch which carries the load across the truss of the rib? When the airplane is flying, the extra hour you saved by using pop rivets won't matter but you will cuss them if you ever have to recover it. Learn a new method and it will increase your confidence and creativity.
 
Steve,

Good points and this is why I'm here to learn from you folks who have done it before. I might even be able to get my wife to help out on something like this. When I'm ready to start skinning things I know where to go for advise!!
 
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